Yundi Li

[BoliverAllmon]

What do  you think of Li? I watched a video of him playing La Campanella and it was the best I have ever heard. He plays with such ease and doesn't sacrifice musicality for speed. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

boliver

[comme_le_vent]

la campanella is one of those 'the faster the better' pieces to me, he doesnt play it fast enough, but its still good, ive only heard his chopin fantasie impromptu - but he has a very polished sound, and a pretty tone, and his lyrical playing is rather beautiful. id have to hear more of him to judge further, but so far so goo.

[liszmaninopin]

I've also heard his Fantaisie-Impromptu.  It's very good, and I'd be inclined to think that with his smoothness, musicality, and touch that he could become a very good interpreter of Chopin.  I don't know how he'd do (I'm sure it wouldn't be too bad, though), with a piece that required alot of aggression or sharp sounds.

[eddie92099]

I also have heard his Fantasie Impromptu and was impressed. He will go far I am sure,
Ed

[Jemmers]

I have both his CDs. His fantaisie impromptu is phenomenal to me. Very very cleanly done.
Overall, I'd say his control of tone is wonderful. He really manages to achieve the "brilliante" on the etude op 10 no. 5, which is something i found lacking in perahia's recording of it.
His liszt b minor sonata is very good also. I found his recording of Liebeslied well done, but the Liebestraum no3 merely good. Still, I wouldn't complain...
I'd be delighted to see him go far, as chinese pianists normally don't really become industry giants very often. As of now, we have Lang lang (industry giant in the circus-pianist-virtuoso category...).
Who can forget our very own forum user meiting! But sorry man... you're not nearly famous enough!

[liszmaninopin]

Considering how many famous pianists come from the Orient, I wouldn't be suprised if by the time most of these young pianists mature a little, they are considered fully the equal of all the twentieth century greats.

[meiting]

Comparing yundi to perahia? *cough*idiot*cough*

Fou T'song, at the time of yesterday evening - "Yundi, he's just an idiot." "Have you heard his Liszt sonata? HORRIBLE! He has no idea what music is!"

just quoting...

[nad]

you guys should check out Wibi Soerjadi   btw he was 3rd at the international Liszt competition, i don't remember when that was though, but was quite young. He also was the only dutch participant  :-/

[comme_le_vent]

alot of these oriental dudes are popping up, it seems as though china, japan, etc are churning them out like some kind of army, are they going to take over the world?

[liszmaninopin]

I think that it's a cultural thing.  I have heard that traditionally those cultures are extremely hard working and appreciate talent, so the parents drive their children to succeed.  Over here in America, some parents push their kids very hard, but most people my age that I know don't work very hard on anything.  They merely coast through the teenage years, except for perhaps sports which most (except the very best) abandon after high school.  Honestly, I'd rather have a world run by hard workers than run by a bunch of people who sit around all day, accomplishing nothing.

[comme_le_vent]

yeah, ive heard about these asian students in america, the stereotype is that they are uber-efficient - all work and no play. and i think this comes from the pressure of their own parents, not just society. do these people turn out to be emotionally and psychologically stunted/scarred, i wonder.

[BoliverAllmon]

My ear training teacher is from Korea. She went to USC and UT for her piano studies. She told me that it was real hard for her family to get the money for her to go to school, so she worked real hard so as not to let her parents down. I think she also had the idea "the most bang for the buck". She just works insanely hard. She also said the Western music is taught where she lives. If one wants to learn it, they take a HUGE risk by leaving the country and going to a good school. My teacher has also told me that 70% of all piano students at University of Texas are from the Orient following the same basic story as my ear training teacher.

boliver

[banana_split]

Hi meiting,

Are you sure Fou Ts'ong said that about Yundi Li? I find it hard to believe because no respectable pianist would call ANY young and developing pianist an "idiot". Afterall, Li did beat out 97 contestants to win the Chopin Competition. So the 23-member strong jury, with Argerich among them, gave the first prize to an idiot? Li also took the 3rd prize at the Liszt Competition when he was only 16. His Liszt Sonata may not be the best, but it's certainly not "horrible".

[Jemmers]

Ouchie for Yundi. And yes, comparing yundi li with perahia is idiotic, which is exactly what i am. So spare me, please?

[meiting]

Yes, Fou T'song said that about Yundi. I only repeat what I hear, i don't make it up.

On a side note, he did also say that when he met Yundi he though that Yundi was a nice kid, quite unlike the impression he got from the ads-campaign.

And to stop anyone from conjecturing whether I heard this from someone or actually with my own ears - I heard this with my own ears. Right across a small dinner table. With 7 other people who can bear witness, except that most of them don't use internet... *frustrated*

[allchopin]

Yes, Fou T'song said that about Yundi. I

Fou T'song has the jealousy bug.

[thracozaag]

Fou T'song has the jealousy bug.

 That's gotta be one of the funnier things I've read all year.  

[allchopin]

Well with the obviously innate, staggering skill Yundi possesses, what else could it possibly be?

[thracozaag]

Well with the obviously innate, staggering skill Yundi possesses, what else could it possibly be?

 No, actually you stating that Fou T'song having the "jealousy bug" was what was so humourous to me.

[allchopin]

I realized that- my response still follows.

[thracozaag]

I realized that- my response still follows.

 Yeah, you're right, what the hell would Fou T'song know about piano playing anyway?

[allchopin]

 Yeah, you're right, what the hell would Fou T'song know about piano playing anyway?

Whoa, whoa; who said Fou didn't know how to play the piano?  I know that I didn't...  what I'm saying is that when one reaches that high level of playing, one really shouldn't be hyper-critical like T'song was.  That's why I think he is a bit jealous (after all, Yundi did win the Chopin competition, while Fou, what, got 2nd runner up?)

[meiting]

Allchopin, I hope you realize that winning a prize doesn't mean a whole lot.

T'song is one of the most original interpreters of Chopin, but original in a sense that he truly understands how Chopin should be played. He lived in Poland, studied their culture, and there is nobody like him - I have just heard him play and teach the complete Preludes, both books of the etudes (teaching yours truly), and the 2nd concerto (again, yours truly) and I have never seen anyone who is so in touch with what Chopin truly represents, and while at the same time accepting of other, original, and good musical ideas.

According to him, many people have forgotten how Chopin should be played. Nobody knows how to play Mazurkas anymore. I, personally, do not believe that imitation is the way to learn music and musicality, and therefore I also dislike many pianists who, though they maybe exceedingly talented, learns by rote.

Another humorous episode from this recent digestif after the lessons - Yundi apparently went to T'song and said that he wanted to study Chopin with him (this was where T'song met him and decided that he's a nice kid) and T'song then said, wait a minute, he got 1st prize, I only got 3rd. I should be studying with him!

Allchopin, back to the original point - Yundi is talented, don't get me wrong. But many people are talented. The twentieth century (and beyond) is unique, perhaps, in its subdivision of labour (through industrialization in the 1800's), and with such a subdivision, there has been more and more people in music who has talent, but lack a general education in the humanities. All of the greatest musicians have both talent and an understanding of life, history, art, basically many things, but not all talented people have that understanding. And it is most pronounced, I believe, now, that talented people, many of them, have foregone the necessary study of the humanities, while focusing on only their instrument. That, to me, is the difference between T'song and other great musicians of the like, and Yundi and other pianists, who might be extremely talented, perhaps much more so than T'song, yet lacking in true musicianship, or artistry.

This also becomes a big problem that I wrestle with, every day of my life. I did not want to bring this up here, not because this might cause a large discussion (which is always fine by me, and on a subject like this I would much welcome such a discussion) but because these are private thoughts that I previously did not wish to share. What is the difference, for one pianist who truly understands music, life, or rather, truly understands the struggles he has with these things, and a pianist, who learns how to play by imitating another? Both is capable of playing wonderful music, one from himself, while the other could imitate so well that you cannot distinguish his performance from an innate one, or is able to absorb another's teaching, by imitation, into his own, but nonetheless does not contain original ideas, from within. And in a recording session, both will work just as well. Even in a performance, both can be just as great, with the only difference being that in multiple performances it is possible for the original artist to manipulate his ideas, if he wants to, while the other would need a teacher or professor to manipulate it for him. I think everyone would agree that in the second case, that is not a true musician. My problem is, how can you tell? I always strive to be original, to stand on my own two feet, but sometimes that is not enough. Sometimes, I play a recital, and while my interpretation is original, some other pianist might come in, play something he learned by imitation or taught note by note, and play something even more wondrous than what I did. Does that make him a better musician than me? (Here, I'm of course using the first person generically - it applies to everyone) Or does it make him a 'fake'? Nonetheless, it is the results that counts, and if he gave a better performance than I did, the obviously the populace would favor him.

Well, just some ramblings from a frustrated pianist in Italy. My most recent trip to Venezia has put me in a very philosophical mood. Speaking of which, that is one damn beautiful city. Stinks at times though.

[thracozaag]

Well, just some ramblings from a frustrated pianist in Italy. My most recent trip to Venezia has put me in a very philosophical mood. Speaking of which, that is one damn beautiful city. Stinks at times though.[/quote]


Well, you know..canals and all... :-/

[allchopin]

Mei-Ting, you really believe that Yundi-li has absolutely no interpretation of music for himself, because that seems to be what you implied in your second paragraph...?
I understand the principles behind being an original musician and being a mime.  However, I have heard Yundi play pieces that I have not heard similar interpretations of before, that he himself created.  This, combined with his exceptional talent, I think makes him what he is- a truly great pianist (which Fou tries so oddly to take away).  
About the award: I know that winning an award isn't everything, or anything, really.  One of my peers got the piano position last year that I believed I should have gotten.  We both knew that I had a little more talent, but he somehow got the position.  But, at the Chopin Competition, the judges are experienced people, and are capable of deciphering differences in performance interpretations they have heard in the past and up-and-comers'.  They most likely made the judicious choice.  This isn't to say that Fou isn't as good as Yundi, but it certainly does put Fou in a lesser position to criticize.

[dreamaurora]

Mei-Ting, you really believe that Yundi-li has absolutely no interpretation of music for himself, because that seems to be what you implied in your second paragraph...?
I understand the principles behind being an original musician and being a mime.  However, I have heard Yundi play pieces that I have not heard similar interpretations of before, that he himself created.  This, combined with his exceptional talent, I think makes him what he is- a truly great pianist (which Fou tries so oddly to take away).  
About the award: I know that winning an award isn't everything, or anything, really.  One of my peers got the piano position last year that I believed I should have gotten.  We both knew that I had a little more talent, but he somehow got the position.  But, at the Chopin Competition, the judges are experienced people, and are capable of deciphering differences in performance interpretations they have heard in the past and up-and-comers'.  They most likely made the judicious choice.  This isn't to say that Fou isn't as good as Yundi, but it certainly does put Fou in a lesser position to criticize.

I'm confused. Are you the same allchopin that claimed he was self-taught and learn pieces as difficult as Ballade no 4? I didn't recall you were joining any competition last year.

[eddie92099]

On competitions, an American pianist had to send off a recording to the Leeds International Piano Competition in order to see whether he would be selected to take part or not. Unfortunately, he was rejected. However, he had not actually sent a recording of himself playing. He had sent a rare recording of a certain Mr Rubinstein,
Ed

[thracozaag]

On competitions, an American pianist had to send off a recording to the Leeds International Piano Competition in order to see whether he would be selected to take part or not. Unfortunately, he was rejected. However, he had not actually sent a recording of himself playing. He had sent a rare recording of a certain Mr Rubinstein,
Ed

 HAHAHAHA

[thracozaag]

Mei-Ting, you really believe that Yundi-li has absolutely no interpretation of music for himself, because that seems to be what you implied in your second paragraph...?
I understand the principles behind being an original musician and being a mime.  However, I have heard Yundi play pieces that I have not heard similar interpretations of before, that he himself created.  This, combined with his exceptional talent, I think makes him what he is- a truly great pianist (which Fou tries so oddly to take away).  
About the award: I know that winning an award isn't everything, or anything, really.  One of my peers got the piano position last year that I believed I should have gotten.  We both knew that I had a little more talent, but he somehow got the position.  But, at the Chopin Competition, the judges are experienced people, and are capable of deciphering differences in performance interpretations they have heard in the past and up-and-comers'.  They most likely made the judicious choice.  This isn't to say that Fou isn't as good as Yundi, but it certainly does put Fou in a lesser position to criticize.

 
 We're definitely going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

[banana_split]

Thank you for your reply, meiting.

It's surprising to hear such cruel comments from a well-respected pianist about a young compatriot. It's also puzzling that while Ts'ong dismisses Li as an "idiot", he calls Lang Lang a "real hero of our (Chinese) race". I'm starting to wonder what kind of judgement and taste does he have.

It's even more surprising of what Ts'ong has said about the Chopin Competition in an interview I read on the internet. Here I quote "The first-prize winners are all technicians.....None of them are true Chopinists." Perhaps that explains why he has an opinion about Li.

A friend of mine attended the Chopin Competition in Warsaw in 2000. She said it was an unanimous vote by all 23 judges to give Li the first prize. Of course, winning a competition is just a beginning. Whether or not Li will mature into a truely great pianist depends on his artistic development in the next 20 years.

About Ts'ong's Chopin, while I have high regards for his Mazurkas, I don't care much about his other pieces.  There're better interpreters in all the other genres.

[Axtremus]

Some thoughts in response to Mei-Ting's comment on creating new interpretations versus regurgitating learnt interpretations. (Thanks to Mei-Ting for framing the issue so nicely.)

I generally agree that a musician's maturity and life experiences, coupled with his understanding of other arts and culture, help determine how much that musician "understands" music. Beyond that, my other thoughts anchor on two themes:

#1. It boils down to what kind of pianist you want to be.

#2. Technology has changed the game.

Point #1: Music reproduction by human is always a form of derivative work. It's a matter of how much you want to derive and how much you want to reinvent. Classical musicians are trained to follow all notes but allowed to play with timing, dynamics, tone color, phrasing, etc. Jazz pianists are trained to throw in notes on their own following a vague outline. If you aim to be an entertainer selling the most concert tickets/CDs, strive to learn the most popular, most widely accepted interpretations. If you aim to be a purist, learn or reconstruct what you thought the composer would have meant. If you aim to be "original," do what you will as long as it has not been done that way before.

Suppose the music is Chopin and the goal is to please the audience, slightly massaging an already popular interpretation would be more cost-effective and a safer bet than introducing a totally original interpretation.

I was reading one of Del Fandrich's writing discussing piano designs the other day (Del Fandrich is a practicing piano designer) and he commented on how the Shigeru folks did a marvelous job on imitating Steinway's design and applied modern scale design theories to "patch" the old designs to arrive at something that he admires even more today. Del Fandrich himself, however, designed new pianos from scratch. Comparing the Shigeru folks to Del Fandrich, the former seems more focused on producing something that sells; the later more focused on bringing piano scale design to new places. And then there is Steinway that is doing just fine sticking with their old designs. Do you want to walk the path of Shigeru, the path of Del Fandrich, or the path of Steinway? What would you like to accomplish?

For old pieces, chances are most major ideas on interpretations are covered. If the music was composed very long ago, perhaps temperament changes have necessitated new interpretations; furthermore, newer pianos with better actions and larger expressive capabilities enabled new interpretations, even interpretations that could not have be imagined by the composers. But, equal temperament has been used for so many decades and the staple concert grand pianos have not been changed all that much for so many decades. Thus statistically, I am inclined to believe that most "good" major ideas on interpretations have been found and tried. For old pieces, therefore, it makes more sense (at least more cost-effective) to inherit a "good" interpretation and tweak it rather than creating an entirely different interpretation from scratch.

Then what about newer pieces?

Modern composers are more detailed and precise with their notations and comments on how they want their music performed. They explore and exhaust modern piano's expressive capabilities. Supposedly, there is less room to come up with a "different" or "original" interpretations as far as major ideas go. If the composer is still alive, any doubt could be cleared up by consultation with the composer. If a living composer is not "in the way," modern recording technology is!

Point #2. Modern recording technology can capture just about all the nuance that the composer-pianist intended in its pristine 20-bit 48 kHz digital sampling glory. There seems to always be an "authoritative" interpretation somewhere preserved on a disk or digital tape somewhere that takes some amount of fun and freedom from shooting for an original interpretation. No point going for "big idea" new interpretations. Just tweak the "authoritative" interpretation on the fly in reaction to the mood/atmosphere/crowd/ambiance/settings etc.

At it stand, I see the most fertile ground to dabble with original interpretation in the more obscure repertoire and works composed by the neo-classical/neo-romantic composers where not all major ideas on interpretation has been explored and before modern recording technology took the guess work out of the composers' intent.

Another wave to encourage original interpretation might come when a new generation of instruments that can eclipse and expand over today's pianos' expressive capabilities. Then musicians can have fun trying to use the new expressive capabilities of the new instruments on old pieces and see where that takes them musically.

(Personally, I would rather compose/improvise than to struggle to come up with new interpretation of someone else's work. That's just me and is, of course, a very different focus from that of classical concert pianists.)

Just my two cents.

[allchopin]

I'm confused. Are you the same allchopin that claimed he was self-taught and learn pieces as difficult as Ballade no 4? I didn't recall you were joining any competition last year.

Same one, and still kicking.  Actually, I planned to join a competition (in Corpus Christi) but I ended up not going (some conflict- can't remember exactly).  The piano 'position' I was talking about was at my school (if that is what you are truly, ambiguously questioning).

Axtremus, I honestly don't understand what your points are exactly, but I gathered that you believe the number of interpretations of piecess has been exhausted, so to speak.  I don't think this is entirely true, but I understand that once a piece has been overplayed and overplayed, it has lost quite a few interpretive alternatives (aside from straying far from the norm).

Back to the original argument, I just don't think that a well-respected pianist like Fou expects to gain any credibility or respectability by trashing others.  Yundi takes the wind out of your sails- 'nuff said.

_{Eddie: I honestly thought I was sending the video tape labelled "My Audition" !}

[meiting]

I really don't think T'song is trying to gain credibility - I don't think he gives a sh*t about credibility anyways. He has always had the reputation to say what he believes; he never minces words. Which is one of the reasons why I respect him because he says it like it is, and has no reason to trash someone for any reason other than personal dislike. Also, please understand that T'song is also human, and he changes his opinions at times. That is perhaps one of the failings - he will change his opinion, but he will also at the same time state very strongly his opinions of the time, which means that he might contradict himself quite strongly. His opinions of Lang Lang has been in flux for quite a while. This is not a topic about Lang Lang, but just let me say that he didn't have complimentary things to say about Lang Lang at all when I saw him last week. Of course, we're talking about someone's opinion here, not even necessarily my own.

It gets very difficult, for me, to talk any more about this topic and my opinions, because unlike Fou T'song, I do not wish to trash any pianists here, unless they're dead . I only brought up the previous topic regarding original conceptions because I wanted people to understand that there is a difference - and many times you can't tell, and sometimes one can be fooled so truly that you might think it's original. There are so many different conceptions of a piece, that it doesn't have to be a copy of something that the listener has necessarily heard. Also, one can copy different parts of different recordings or conceptions, though that usually creates a slightly more disjointed performance unless the performer is talented, in which case it would not have been necessary to truly copy anything. I'm not against taking an idea from another performer. I'm against copying ideas completely, and playing without an understanding of the music.

One conclusion I have reached so far, which is far from practical but still instructive - all we need is for the pianist who doesn't understand music to leave his teacher/professor. When that happens his performances will break down into something dreadful, unless the performer learns how to stand on his own two feet.