Method Books for Adults

[jam8086]

Hello all,

I am about to take on an adult student who can read music but has never played the piano.  Can you recommend any method/beginner piano books for this type of student?  I have heard a lot of praise on this forum for the Alfred series.  The class piano course at my school uses "Keyboard Musicianship: Piano for Adults" by Lyke, Caramia, Alexander, and Haydon...has anyone heard of this series?  I talked to some of the students in the class and they gave me pretty positive feedback on it.

Any thoughts?
Thanks!

[amanfang]

What is the adult student looking for in lessons?  Classical rep, playing favorite songs on the piano?  It depends on what they want.  I have an adult student who can read music, but based on what he wants, I'm using my own method and teaching him what he wants to play.  Basically he wants to play songs he knows, so that he and his family can sing along, so I work a lot with chords, both with reading lead sheet and recognizing function for transposition purposes.  He seems to like what we're doing.

Adult books - not sure about the regular Alfred adult book.  I think I remember some fairly kiddie pieces in it that don't appeal to adults. 
The Alfred piano for group classes is good in that it is comprehensive - technical exercises, reading examples, scales/chords/theory, harmonizing, and repertoire.  It is intended for group classes, but could be used solo I suppose.
Faber adult method I also like, but it moves at a slower pace than the Alfred.  We used the Alfred at school for music majors who were not piano majors but had to pass proficiency exams. 
I am not familiar with the book you mentioned.  I used one this summer, but don't remember who did it - only remember that the cover was purple, I did NOT like it.

[hyrst]

Hi,
I like the Alfred Adult series - I have looked at about 4 different series, and the Alfred seems most suitable in progression for reading chords - which supports fake book reading - and then moves on to more classical type reading.  The rate of progression seems very good because there is so much pattern based reading.  There are a variety of different styles and the adults will normally find something they know in the repertoire, especially if older than 35. 

I find the Adventure series spends too much time on the very elementary things that adults can get through in one or two lessons if taught the logic of such things as reading notes by step and the structure of chords.  Most of the material I have found in other books can be taught by adding improvisation and aural skills to the lesson regimen.

[jpianoflorida]

alfred adult series for sure!   been using them for 10 years....use the supplemental books as well-  sacred, pop, country,all time favorites, whichever one the student likes.

[jam8086]

Well, the student wants to learn classical, and I actually heard that the Alfred series leads more to jazz/pop than classical, and that it only uses a "5 finger position," so students dont know what to do if they have to move their hand.

Thoughts?

[jpianoflorida]

not at all!   of course I'm referring to the alfred adult series, I have never used the children's books.    The adult method teaches note reading and theory in detail.    Book 2 starts to get into a lot of classical and book 3 actually has several classical works such as Fur Elise(3 movements) , original moonlight sonata, Toccata, etc.         Most any method book is going to start you out in 5 finger positions, at least ones that start out using the staff immediately, which I prefer.     I want the student to see the staff and notes at the first lesson.    I'm not  a fan of some books I've seen that just have the student play numbers or notes that aren't on a staff, but that's just me.

[tiasjoy]

I know you asked for methods, but there are a lot of simplified classic compilation books out there that may suit your adult student better.  Denes Agay's First Year Piano is what I use a lot with my students (not the Joy of Piano - that's a method book; the one I'm talking about is just repertoire).

The pieces are all very popular/familiar, even though they are simplified.  Then you could just teach the pieces in the book your student is most drawn to.  The first part is all classical, the latter more American folk.  (You'd have to do the 'teaching' part then, rather than follow a book - but it may be better than a method book seeing your student already knows how to read music. )

[amanfang]

Jam,

The Alfred Adult series is much better than the children's method.  I would NOT recommend their children's method, but their other publications are generally very good.  My student has one of the Adult Favorites books, and it includes Folk songs, some pop, and some classical arrangements.  He loves it. 

[pianowelsh]

I find Alfred difficult as the pieces are often well known american tunes at first and this doesnt appeal to europeans much.  I dont use a method book much atall.  I cut from the Alfred, the Bastien and Fanny Watermans young pianists books to get the basics in with a supplementary theory course which I pick and choose from to provide a fairly comprehensive start.  I use microjazz duets to teach ensemble as they are easy to read and sound good. The jazzy style is pretty univerally accepted. Asap I get them onto the etude literature, Burgmuller, Czerny, kohler etc and then start to drop in easy repertoire pieces gradually progressing in the difficulty with duets dropped in here and there for fun and sightreading. Seems to work

[lenkaolenka]

ALL method books are worthless, because no book can explain to eyes, coordination and ears of learners what they have to see, do or hear.
Learning music and piano with method books' is old and ineffective way – waste of money and time

[jpianoflorida]

ALL method books are worthless, because no book can explain to eyes, coordination and ears of learners what they have to see, do or hear.
Learning music and piano with method books' is old and ineffective way – waste of money and time

wait a minute!    you can't say that method books are worthless! A good teacher can take any method book and make it work!  You have no right to say the statements you just made!   Besides, we know you are on here to sell a method that you have , correct?   So please don't bash methods.   

[lenkaolenka]

Dear jpianoflorida,
Before we would go to further discussions, please, answer 2 questions:
1.   Imagine that in 19 century people had Internet. A guy in Russia with name Mendeleyev is coming to the forum of chemistry and saying that he have created 'Table of Chemical elements'. Is it a sale?
2.   If you are planning to fly from Florida to let's say Texas and the airlines give you 2 choices: a pilot that was taking flying lessons with great teachers but using only text books or a pilot who learned to fly with computer based flight simulator, what pilot would you chose?

[jpianoflorida]

Dear jpianoflorida,
Before we would go to further discussions, please, answer 2 questions:
1.   Imagine that in 19 century people had Internet. A guy in Russia with name Mendeleyev is coming to the forum of chemistry and saying that he have created 'Table of Chemical elements'. Is it a sale?
2.   If you are planning to fly from Florida to let's say Texas and the airlines give you 2 choices: a pilot that was taking flying lessons with great teachers but using only text books or a pilot who learned to fly with computer based flight simulator, what pilot would you chose?

i'll choose not to discuss this with you, because you are trying to promote your own things!

[lenkaolenka]

Well,
Theses of my invention was published in book for educators by Moscow conservatory ( place, where Peter Tchaikovsky, Sergey Rachmaninov, Igor Stravinsky, Sergey Prokofiev and Dmitry Schostakovitch were teaching and studding. Concert pianist and national artist of Russia Yuri Rozum and concert pianist and vice dean of Madrid State's conservatory Victoria Lypez called my invention 'The best educational idea of 21st century'.
All what I 'sale' here is education. And it is absolutely free.
If you disagree with me – give me your arguments, but do not give me your attitude. We are not discussing new ways of making pizza. We are talking about the best ways to teach our kids music.
And I state again: method books are not doing the best job. I was taught traditionally – I was teaching with method books – I know the difference. You know only one way and argue.

[keyofc]

Lenka,
If you learned from worthless method books - how is your piano playing?

And what kind of method do you use?

[lenkaolenka]

I was the worst student of music school 'till the 5th grade. In 5th grade I started to hear perfect pitch of every sound and it helped me to graduate music school, music secondary school and conservatory with honor.
I use computer technology to teach students to play piano and read notation, invented a device, which is building students' coordination, training music ear and memory and training eye-sight to read music on the fly.

[jpianoflorida]

Lenka,
If you learned from worthless method books - how is your piano playing?

And what kind of method do you use?

Lenka has no right to say "all method books" are bad.    I  wouldn't be surprised if Lenka was another forum member that we haven't heard from in a while.    One forum member with similiar type posts(negative) has kind of dissappeared and now Lenka has appeared as a new member?   hmnnn....anyone else think it could be someone who has changed forum names? or is it coincidence?

[lenkaolenka]

I am not saying that 'All method books are bad' – I am saying 'All method books are bad because:
1.   To play piano and to read music is a SKILL. The best ways to build skills – is TO BUILD THEM. Pilots learn by computer flight simulators now days and this is why we have many airplanes. If the pilots would learn with 'method books' , only selected few could actually be able to fly
2.   You have to grasp abstract music notation with your vision. No method book could train your eyes to do it. It is just psychologically impossible to make your eyes to see what they should see and ears to hear what they have to hear. Does not work this way! 

Do you know statistic? Every method book publisher house sales 100 books of 1st level, 10 books of second and 1 book of the third. It means, that method book publishers do their profit mostly on the beginners. Every year amount of people who wants to play piano shrinks, piano stores are getting closed and music literacy is far from flourishing ( as well as piano teachers' income)

So, are we going to continue defend 'method books' or start learning new tricks?   

[amanfang]

I'm not saying that method books are appropriate in every case for every level, BUT, you make it sound like the only thing one does with a method book is READ it.  Method books provide step-by-step instruction for playing.  All it does is provide a sequence for presenting musical concepts and pieces that one must PRACTICE AND PLAY in order to master.  Yes, there are teachers who are "page-turner" teachers and just teach one method, one page at time and slug their students through, but I think many are not like that.  Many teachers supplement outside of method books and also incorporate other techniques and teaching strategies to beef-up the method where we know there are obvious weaknesses.  Every teacher and whatever method they choose will have weaknesses.   You decide what is important for you to teach, and you teach it that way.

[jpianoflorida]

I'm not saying that method books are appropriate in every case for every level, BUT, you make it sound like the only thing one does with a method book is READ it.  Method books provide step-by-step instruction for playing.  All it does is provide a sequence for presenting musical concepts and pieces that one must PRACTICE AND PLAY in order to master.  Yes, there are teachers who are "page-turner" teachers and just teach one method, one page at time and slug their students through, but I think many are not like that.  Many teachers supplement outside of method books and also incorporate other techniques and teaching strategies to beef-up the method where we know there are obvious weaknesses.  Every teacher and whatever method they choose will have weaknesses.   You decide what is important for you to teach, and you teach it that way.

good points...and another point about lenkao statistics about lesson  books..of course you sell more of lesson book #1 than any other! A lot of teachers, like me, use the level #1 books then we branch off into other things we feel the student needs.   You can't say that people are quitting because publishers sell more of one level than another.   It doesn't necessarily mean that.   I often go into other areas after lesson #1 books.

[jpianoflorida]

I am not saying that 'All method books are bad' – I am saying 'All method books are bad because:
1.   To play piano and to read music is a SKILL. The best ways to build skills – is TO BUILD THEM. Pilots learn by computer flight simulators now days and this is why we have many airplanes. If the pilots would learn with 'method books' , only selected few could actually be able to fly
2.   You have to grasp abstract music notation with your vision. No method book could train your eyes to do it. It is just psychologically impossible to make your eyes to see what they should see and ears to hear what they have to hear. Does not work this way! 

Do you know statistic? Every method book publisher house sales 100 books of 1st level, 10 books of second and 1 book of the third. It means, that method book publishers do their profit mostly on the beginners. Every year amount of people who wants to play piano shrinks, piano stores are getting closed and music literacy is far from flourishing ( as well as piano teachers' income)

So, are we going to continue defend 'method books' or start learning new tricks?   

Guess what? I learned in method books and Guess what? i can play the piano and sight read extremely well.    If what you say is true, NO ONE around would be able to play the piano if they used method books.    PLEASE tell us what your purpose is on this forum?  are you trying to sell your method? I have seen you post on other piano websites exactly the same as you are here.   What are you getting out of promoting your "soft mozart" or whatever it is? If that is not the name of it I apologize.    We are all on here to learn, if you would like to share with us, that is great. But please don't come on here and bash method books, bash teachers ways of teaching, etc.    If you want to say "hey teachers, i'd like to share with you something that I think will help you"..that will be great!   But you are continually bashing anything that isn't your way of doing things.       SHARE please, but please don't continue to put down other methods or teachers.

[lenkaolenka]

You learned  and you made it! – and I am very happy for you! What's next? How your knowledge would help others? Don't you feel a little uncomfortable, that we live in musically illiterate world? What are you ready to do in order to change the situation?
I know, it  seems shocking to you, when I put all traditions down. But believe me: I have all the rights and research to do it! Method books suck! Want to learn? Welcome to our board! Want to stay in the dead end? It is YOUR own choice!

[tiasjoy]

You can't say that people are quitting because publishers sell more of one level than another.   It doesn't necessarily mean that. 

To give another viewpoint, it doesn't necessarily NOT mean that either.  I think it's actually a fair judgement call to say that a lot of kids who 'try' piano for a year decide it's not for them, and they're off 'trying' something different.

I have used method books.  In the early stages of my teaching I found them invaluable.  They taught me what I needed to know to give me the confidence to experiment with different ways of helping students understand concepts. 

Like others have said, I'll start with a first level book, and then move on.  I've tried going through the series, each level etc, but the kids just get frustrated and bored compared to the ones who aren't using methods. 

The more experience I have with teaching, the more and more I'm inclined to not use methods at all.  There is SO MUCH fantastic music written for piano,  and it's just not presented in methods. 

While I don't quite understand lenkaolenka's reasoning and so can't agree with it, teaching the last couple of years WITHOUT method books have been liberating, and MUCH more exciting for both me and my students.   If I had to be black and white about the matter, yay or nay ... then it would be nay for methods.

I wrote this post because of this statement:

But please don't come on here and bash method books,

Forums are a place to be 'heard' whatever opinions people may have. 

[jpianoflorida]

To give another viewpoint, it doesn't necessarily NOT mean that either.  I think it's actually a fair judgement call to say that a lot of kids who 'try' piano for a year decide it's not for them, and they're off 'trying' something different.

I have used method books.  In the early stages of my teaching I found them invaluable.  They taught me what I needed to know to give me the confidence to experiment with different ways of helping students understand concepts. 

Like others have said, I'll start with a first level book, and then move on.  I've tried going through the series, each level etc, but the kids just get frustrated and bored compared to the ones who aren't using methods. 

The more experience I have with teaching, the more and more I'm inclined to not use methods at all.  There is SO MUCH fantastic music written for piano,  and it's just not presented in methods. 

While I don't quite understand lenkaolenka's reasoning and so can't agree with it, teaching the last couple of years WITHOUT method books have been liberating, and MUCH more exciting for both me and my students.   If I had to be black and white about the matter, yay or nay ... then it would be nay for methods.

I wrote this post because of this statement:
Forums are a place to be 'heard' whatever opinions people may have. 

but no one has a right to say "all method books are bad"   go back and read what the poster wrote..here it is:

quote:
ALL method books are worthless, because no book can explain to eyes, coordination and ears of learners what they have to see, do or hear.
Learning music and piano with method books' is old and ineffective way – waste of money and time"     
----------------
that is a ridicolous , self promoting, statement.     The whole reason being the poster is trying to promote their own business.

[tiasjoy]

The 'right' to say?  Mmmmm... that's interesting.  So people don't have the 'right' because they don't agree with you, or because they're 'ridiculous' and don't meet your standard?  Or they don't have the 'right' to promote their business because you believe that's not ethical or appopriate. 

Jay, I find your "this is my forum and you don't have the right to say ..."  attitude offensi

[jpianoflorida]

The 'right' to say?  Mmmmm... that's interesting.  So people don't have the 'right' because they don't agree with you, or because they're 'ridiculous' and don't meet your standard?  Or they don't have the 'right' to promote their business because you believe that's not ethical or appopriate. 

Jay, I find your "this is my forum and you don't have the right to say ..."  attitude offensi

ok. thanks for your input. I'm not commenting further,cause I might say something I regret, you are totally taking my post the wrong way.  but we aren't suppose to "promote" our business on this forum.

[jpianoflorida]

You learned  and you made it! – and I am very happy for you! What's next? How your knowledge would help others? Don't you feel a little uncomfortable, that we live in musically illiterate world? What are you ready to do in order to change the situation?
I know, it  seems shocking to you, when I put all traditions down. But believe me: I have all the rights and research to do it! Method books suck! Want to learn? Welcome to our board! Want to stay in the dead end? It is YOUR own choice!

hmnn..ok, i can't resist , i have to say one more thing to tiasjoy..   so it's ok for lenkaolenka to post the above to me? but I'm wrong for what i say? interesting!   why don't you read the rest of lenkaolenka's posts if you haven't already.   What professional can say that "all method books suck" and that another teacher is "in the dead end".    Is that acceptable and professional to you?

[pianowelsh]

Piano method books on their own are a total waste of time and space. Piano method books = TAUGHT! in an imaginative clear and FUN way are as good a way to learn as any. That is the findings of my own extensive research which interviewed members of conservatoire faculties in the UK - a couple of which interestingly were formally at the moscow conservatory.   I think we need to be mature about this discussion. Both Lenka and Jay are correct. A book will not intrinsically teach you everything you need to know about a practical and dynamic subject such as music is. But it can be a formative tool in the process.  SOme students Love to have a book to colour and to bring to the lesson - it makes them feel grown up and they have  a clear way of seeing their progress, and a good and easy way of refreshing what they have learnt in the reccent passed. Others will find a book stale, some will move so quickly that a book isnt stretching or demanding enough for them. Some will have teachers that find a book a bind and an encumberance to their creativity.  I have no real method in my teaching. I primarily react to the student and see what their learning style will be. Sometimes that will involve using a method book or sections of various books for a time. To establish a principle but I find mainstream rep more rewarding. I often assign theory homework based around lessons in tutor books (my own excersises) in addition to what we work on in lessons.  I rarely teach a concept from a method book. I explain it/teach it practically and then back it up with th visual ususally. But as I said I react to the students learning style. There isnt much point having one way to teach because we have many students and they have many different ways of learning.

[jpianoflorida]

pianowelsh..great post! I totally agree.   That was the original point I was trying to get accross.      You can't say all method books suck.     A good teacher can take  any method book, supplement it, etc and make it work.     I use many different books, computer programs, internet sites, etc in teaching.    I never stick to 1 series of lesson books.     My whole issue was that someone comes on here saying that   we are wrong for using lesson books.  I found that to be very a unprofesssional statement.      Once a student reaches a level 2 or 3 in any book, I usually move away from using the books all the time.      YOu have to find what works, but for some students they need the step by step approach of the book. Only the teacher can decide what is best for the student.       I"m fine discussing anything on here, I just object when someone comes on here and claims "they are right and everyone else is wrong" and if you read that posters many posts, they are all the same!   They all basically say "i have the secret, the right way, you guys ways are outdated".         I in no way have the attitude that tiasjoy somehow decided I have.   

[pianowelsh]

I think there is room for being emotive on a forum too. We dont always need to be 'professional' BUT if we are not we have to be prepared to be fired across the bows. Thats life. You live on the edge or you play safe.  I would suggest there is a time for both.  I suppose thats slightly off topic. But then perhaps not actually!

[lenkaolenka]

Dear jpiaoflorida,
Did you ever tried SOFT MOZART?

[pianowelsh]

dear lenkaolenka, could you please send me a personal message explaining what soft Mozart is. Im not sure what the rules regarding promotion are but Im sure if you were to talk about it in a private message that would be fine.

[lenkaolenka]

Dear pianowelsh, how to send private messages in this site? I have no idea

[keyofc]

Lenko,
Good for you - but still - how did you learn how to read music?  Having perfect pitch is great, but how does it help you read music?   

Posts: 16


  Re: Method Books for Adults
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 11:32:17 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was the worst student of music school 'till the 5th grade. In 5th grade I started to hear perfect pitch of every sound and it helped me to graduate music school, music secondary school and conservatory with honor.
I use computer technology to teach students to play piano and read notation, invented a device, which is building students' 

[lenkaolenka]

Well, let's try to understand, what is essential in music making. Any professional musician 'sees' music instrument and music text 'within'. I look at the piano key and just know not just all the names of each key, I know how each key sounding and how they sounding in hundreds combinations with each other. I also look at the score and hear the music inside of my head.

I came to the USA and the very first Christmas an owner of private school asked me to play for their Christmas recital. I didn't know any Christmas carols – so she was singing them to me and I just wrote all of them on music paper. To make the long story short: for any individual music notes and piano keys ought to become one unite in order to succeed in learning music literacy.

Peoples with inborn music talent make this connection very fast due to advanced ear and memory. This is why ALL the systems of learning music have couple of prodigies, which they demonstrate as the evidence of their success.  But it is time to judge approaches by how they teach people with average or no musical talent, even people with disabilities – approaches that capable to develop music ear and music vision from zero to advanced.

We like to talk about technique in playing piano. Do you know, how people came up with standards? Again, they watched the prodigies. Prodigies as I mentioned SEE each piano key and note with ears, their muscles relaxed anf movements confident due to that. Instead of mocking their 'freedom of muscles' with our beginners we just have to make them SEE each note and each key in their connection. But we go for long theory explanations and drills and cripple our students' fime motor skills development.

[pianowelsh]

usually there is a little box top LH under title bar that says welcome and your user name. I usually click there ther rest is self explanatory - I think.  Im not that pc literate - it was a surprise to me the first time i realsied i had a message

[pianowelsh]

Whilst I agree with you lenka we must recognise that this highly developed aural perception is only one kind of musical talent.  It is not the only way in which one can be said to me musicaly talented. not all great pianists had the prodigy early ears that you talk about. true many do but there are also skills of reading very well and some who have great finger control early and others who can understand the emotional quality of the music very sensitively for their years.  Musical talent cannot be just defined as good pitch recall and inner hearing.  Its part but not all of the picture and if we only grab hold of one corner and tug it the vase will topple eventually. 

In fairness to the person who started this topic. This discussion would really best be carried on in a separate thread as the topic was more related to the kind of method books that are available for this group rather than if they are needed atall and in which other ways adults and talents f all ages can be taught. Maybe Lenka you would like to start another thread investigating the soft Mozart and similar approaches in realtion to talented children or something??!?

[lenkaolenka]

Whilst I agree with you lenka we must recognise that this highly developed aural perception is only one kind of musical talent.  It is not the only way in which one can be said to me musicaly talented. not all great pianists had the prodigy early ears that you talk about. true many do but there are also skills of reading very well and some who have great finger control early and others who can understand the emotional quality of the music very sensitively for their years.  Musical talent cannot be just defined as good pitch recall and inner hearing.  Its part but not all of the picture and if we only grab hold of one corner and tug it the vase will topple eventually. 

In fairness to the person who started this topic. This discussion would really best be carried on in a separate thread as the topic was more related to the kind of method books that are available for this group rather than if they are needed atall and in which other ways adults and talents f all ages can be taught. Maybe Lenka you would like to start another thread investigating the soft Mozart and similar approaches in realtion to talented children or something??!?

You have a good point. But the problem is: moderators of this forum could consider it as advertisement. It happened many times before. Any advice?

[tiasjoy]

Any advice?

I've read many many posts from Bernhard who has a very different approach to music education.  He never actually referred people to his own site (not sure if he had one), and he wasn't asking for any money, but he did promote his own ideas extensively, and from what I can see, has gathered a large devoted following on this forum.

Others (the piano guy?) have made a thread.  And there are threads made specifically taking yolu to other sites, and once you get there, it involves money ...

Try your own thread, and if it gets deleted, then you'll know.

[lenkaolenka]

Others (the piano guy?) have made a thread.  And there are threads made specifically taking yolu to other sites, and once you get there, it involves money ...

Try your own thread, and if it gets deleted, then you'll know.

Oh, boy... I already have an idea what topic I would like to start, but now is another technical issue: how to start new topics?

[tiasjoy]

Go back to the TEACHING page, and up the top is the middle button: start new topic (or something like that). 

[lenkaolenka]

Go back to the TEACHING page, and up the top is the middle button: start new topic (or something like that). 

Got it! Thank you! 

[juliax]

I've found that the Hal Leonard Method is an excellent start.  You will, as all teachers do, have to incorporate your own method, but the Hal Leonard books are much easier to follow and much less tedious than the Alfred series.  Plus it lacks religious conotation which can sometimes be an issue when teaching students of different cultures and backgrounds (such as I do.)  I skip the first part of the Hal Leonard book 1 and start immediately with the staff and reading music, band I incorporate things specific to my method.  I suggest buying the book first and learning all the accompaniments with the CD, that way your student can learn ensemble with you first, then the CD, which is not something really offered in the Alfred method.  I have had the unfortunate experience of working with adults in this method, and it moves too fast for the average working adult.  In the Hal Leonard method there are structured improvisational pieces which makes lessons a lot more enjoyable for you and anyone listenning.