Liszt and religion

[aztech]

Hello,

I really could use some help now. I'm doing a research about the influence of religion on Liszt's late music so any help with resources are really appreciated. I found some articles on Jstor but that's not enough. Also I don't have time to buy Alan Walker's Liszt biography book, since only way for me to get it is via Amazon, which could take ages and I only have a month.

Thanks in advance.

[dnephi]

Do you have access to a college library?  Mine has more than enough information on the subject.  Some people have compared the "Trionfo" theme in the B Minor Sonata to "Ave Maria," notice that sentences with "Mary" in his works with words are always in D Major...

Hope it helps,

Dnephi

[aztech]

It'll be really great to mention. Thanks very much.

[pianistimo]

norton's 'music in the romantic era' by alfred einstein copyright 1947 is an indepth book on this subject.  part III deals with 'philosophy' which was probably more an element of liszt's religion than anything.

here's a quote from page 163 Liszt: 'dilettante christianity'

'quite early in his (liszt's)career, the great virtuoso began to concern himself with the problem of church music, and  in the second volume of his collected writings (1887) there is a fragment included from the year 1834 'on the church music of the future' from the same year as lamennai's 'paroles d'un croyant.'  it laments the decline of religion;  it laments the fact that:

art has left the heart of the temple and broadening out has had to seek in the outside world the stage for it's noble manifestations... etc.

'from these few words one can already perceive that ...a cleavage which had to be carried over most noticeably in his church music itself....(speaks about verdi's requiem) 'with liszt however, the solution was complicated by his acquiantance with gregorian chant and by his franciscan inclination to the utmost simplicity.  he did not begin with works such as might put into effect his program of 1834, but with a mass for four-part chorus of men's voices and organ (1848) in a mixture of simple declamation with a cantabile quality, of archaism with romantic ecstasy, meanwhile using gregorian idioms in the gloria and the agnus dei.  a similar work is the later missa choralis (1865) originally for mixed chorus a cappella, but later provided with organ accompaniment and given a more strictly contrupuntal character.

liszt realized his youthful program in his two great instrumental masses, but no longer in the unquestioning manner of his youth.  the more modest of these two works is the so-called 'hungarian coronation mass,' composed for the festival service on the occasion of the crowning of the habsburg rulers as king and queen of hungary in the st. matthew church in buda, 1867.  liszt did not wish the work to be performed in a concert hall...

still more magnificent, particularly in the instrumentation, which even includes a harp,...is the missa solemnis for the dedication of the basilica at grann, seat of the primate of hungary, in 1856.  on may 2, 1855, liszt wrote to richard wagner:  'during these last weeks i have been entirely wrapped up in my mass, and yesterday i at last finished it.  i do not know how the thing will sound, but i can say this, that for it i have done more praying that writing.'  (and yet - the orchestra is the opposite of everything caecilian - and doesn't rest in God but contends with Him). 

liszt also wrote five psalm compositions, of which the setting of the 13th psalm for tenor solo, chorus and full orchestra is the most fervent and dramatic.  liszt wrote:  'the tenor part is very important; i have let myself sing the part and the flesh-and-blood appearance of king david inspire me (august 29, 1862).  ...since he had been born a catholic, he became a priest 'abbe liszt,' who sought in rome a sort of defense against his overflowing, life-affirming virtuosity -

pg 211 'the religious impulse, which had already found expression in his early work, gained strength in his harmonies poetiques et religiuses written during the late fourties, in ten pieces, among which are the benediction de dieu dans la solitude (no 3) and the cantique d'amour (no 10) piety, which in good part is boredom and flight...as liszt grew older, this religious, or quasi-religious element became stronger:  witness, for example, his legendes written about 1863 (pub 1866), which set both st. francises in a richly ornamented auriole, 'st. francois d'assise - la predication aux oiseaux' and 'st. francois de paul marchant sur les flots'; or the thrid part, the 'troisieme anne' of the 'annees de pelerinage (1877) which ends with a genuine pilgrimage to rome.  ..the revolutionary child of the world, seeks, in genuinely romantic fashion, for rest in God.'

'there is one of his pieces (despite many bravura studies - such as the ones for paganini) - in fact, that piece referred to as the very heart of the harmonies poetiques (1834) which, being without signature of either time or key, may serve as an original model of pure expression.' (also it suffuses also the sole sonata). 

[ahinton]

norton's 'music in the romantic era' by alfred einstein copyright 1947 is an indepth book on this subject.  part III deals with 'philosophy' which was probably more an element of liszt's religion than anything.

here's a quote from page 163 Liszt: 'dilettante christianity'

'quite early in his (liszt's)career, the great virtuoso began to concern himself with the problem of church music, and  in the second volume of his collected writings (1887) there is a fragment included from the year 1834 'on the church music of the future' from the same year as lamennai's 'paroles d'un croyant.'  it laments the decline of religion;  it laments the fact that:

art has left the heart of the temple and broadening out has had to seek in the outside world the stage for it's noble manifestations... etc.

'from these few words one can already perceive that ...a cleavage which had to be carried over most noticeably in his church music itself....(speaks about verdi's requiem) 'with liszt however, the solution was complicated by his acquiantance with gregorian chant and by his franciscan inclination to the utmost simplicity.  he did not begin with works such as might put into effect his program of 1834, but with a mass for four-part chorus of men's voices and organ (1848) in a mixture of simple declamation with a cantabile quality, of archaism with romantic ecstasy, meanwhile using gregorian idioms in the gloria and the agnus dei.  a similar work is the later missa choralis (1865) originally for mixed chorus a cappella, but later provided with organ accompaniment and given a more strictly contrupuntal character.

liszt realized his youthful program in his two great instrumental masses, but no longer in the unquestioning manner of his youth.  the more modest of these two works is the so-called 'hungarian coronation mass,' composed for the festival service on the occasion of the crowning of the habsburg rulers as king and queen of hungary in the st. matthew church in buda, 1867.  liszt did not wish the work to be performed in a concert hall...

still more magnificent, particularly in the instrumentation, which even includes a harp,...is the missa solemnis for the dedication of the basilica at grann, seat of the primate of hungary, in 1856.  on may 2, 1855, liszt wrote to richard wagner:  'during these last weeks i have been entirely wrapped up in my mass, and yesterday i at last finished it.  i do not know how the thing will sound, but i can say this, that for it i have done more praying that writing.'  (and yet - the orchestra is the opposite of everything caecilian - and doesn't rest in God but contends with Him). 

liszt also wrote five psalm compositions, of which the setting of the 13th psalm for tenor solo, chorus and full orchestra is the most fervent and dramatic.  liszt wrote:  'the tenor part is very important; i have let myself sing the part and the flesh-and-blood appearance of king david inspire me (august 29, 1862).  ...since he had been born a catholic, he became a priest 'abbe liszt,' who sought in rome a sort of defense against his overflowing, life-affirming virtuosity -

pg 211 'the religious impulse, which had already found expression in his early work, gained strength in his harmonies poetiques et religiuses written during the late fourties, in ten pieces, among which are the benediction de dieu dans la solitude (no 3) and the cantique d'amour (no 10) piety, which in good part is boredom and flight...as liszt grew older, this religious, or quasi-religious element became stronger:  witness, for example, his legendes written about 1863 (pub 1866), which set both st. francises in a richly ornamented auriole, 'st. francois d'assise - la predication aux oiseaux' and 'st. francois de paul marchant sur les flots'; or the thrid part, the 'troisieme anne' of the 'annees de pelerinage (1877) which ends with a genuine pilgrimage to rome.  ..the revolutionary child of the world, seeks, in genuinely romantic fashion, for rest in God.'

'there is one of his pieces (despite many bravura studies - such as the ones for paganini) - in fact, that piece referred to as the very heart of the harmonies poetiques (1834) which, being without signature of either time or key, may serve as an original model of pure expression.' (also it suffuses also the sole sonata). 

Your lengthy and detailed quotations here certainly serve to throw some light on the issue, but it is important at all times when considering this undoubtedly significant aspect of Liszt's character that Liszt's personality, notwithstanding the Francescan simplicity inclinations to which you cite reference, was one of increasingly complexity, as illustrated by many factors as diverse as his championing of the works of others (especally Wagner), his vast array of students, his love affairs, his involvement (sometimes rather at arm's length) with the Christian faith, his pursuit - and then rejection - of the cult of virtuosity, his active rôle (albeit sometimes less than immediately direct) in the development of both performance traditions and instrument manufacture and the sometimes disturbing nature of the harmonic experimentations of his final years; Liszt was indeed, without doubt, one of the most complex and questing personć among 19th century musicians.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

dear aztech,

if you go into 'google scholar' and type in 'liszt pilgrimage to rome' - about the fifth site down you'll find 'franz liszt:  the weimar years 1848-1861'  in it's complete edition i believe by alan walker!  i was surprised to find it.  you have to keep scrolling down through the forward and chapter contents to get to the first chapter.

now franz liszt also wrote a book entitled 'an artist's journey:  lettres d'un bachelier es musique 1835-1841 and this is tranlsated by charles suttoni and published 1989

also marion bauer wrote 'the literary liszt' and i quote this from her book:

a handsome, sensitive boy, refined in appearance, of an elusive, ethereal sort of beauty, with long, fair hair and deep-set blue-green eyes, he was at ease in his manner, unspoiled, and of generous spirit.  the villiage priest at his native raiding had taught little ferencz, or franz, the three r's and was asked by his pupil to tell him stories of the bible, of the life of Jesus, and of the church fathers.  his austrian mother read grimm's fairy tales to him in german.  the child soon asked to replace these with stories of heros and saints.  outisde of music, his education was limited, and during the early years in paris he must have sufferred from his lack of methodical elementary training.  ' i was scratching notes on music paper before i could write one of the letters of the alphabet,' he said, 'and sank myself in mystic and philosophic books before i had cleared up the rules of grammar.'  among those books was thomas a kempis 'imitation of christ.'


***dear alistair,
i just read your comments and fully agree!  it has been so long since i read about liszt's 'pilgrimage' - but am agreed that he was a very complex person and to figure out his religious philosophies fully would probably not be possible.  perhaps he was questioning to the end?  in any case...listening to the works that he composed during these various 'religious experience' periods helps to at least shed some light on what he was composing.  and, also to read what he himself wrote - is a 'primary source' rather than what other's believe that he was thinking. 

i did learn something from my grad classes - and that is to take primary sources first.  liszt's own writings, letters, those that knew him first hand.  these would be the most excellent sources to start with - and then - to read these other books that shed light from scholars who have studied him.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Hello,

I really could use some help now. I'm doing a research about the influence of religion on Liszt's late music so any help with resources are really appreciated. I found some articles on Jstor but that's not enough. Also I don't have time to buy Alan Walker's Liszt biography book, since only way for me to get it is via Amazon, which could take ages and I only have a month.

Thanks in advance.

When you say "Liszt's late music" do you mean the music that he composed at the very end of his life, or the pieces being quoted here, which I personally wouldn't consider to be part of his late music. My opinion, going on what I remember, (I have all three of the Walker biographies, so I will try to check the accuracy of what I'm saying when I find the time to dig them out) is that there is a strong religious aspect in a lot of what he was composing in the 1860s for example, but that in the works which typify late Liszt as I understand it (ie La lugubre gondola, Csardas macabre, Nuages gris etc) there is no religious aspect per se, more perhaps a spiritual aspect in the sense of a preoccupation with life coming to an end. (Liszt suffered from depression on a regular basis at this point in his life).