Speed question

[danny elfboy]

Looking for posts on speed in the forum I found this:

Finally, there is nothing wrong with slow practice, as long as it is “slow motion” practice, that is you reproduce slowly the exact movements you would be using when playing at full speed.

Slow practice becomes counterproductive and nocive only when you use the slow speed to get away with unnecessary, inappropriate movements that you would never be able to reproduce at full speed. These are the movements that once ingrained and unconscious will create speed walls.

[timothy42b]

So I wonder: how does someone practice a piece in "slow motion"?
How do you find the movements that you would use at fast speed and then "slow them down" rather than using unefficient movements that work only at a slow speed?

I don't think you can practice the whole piece fast.   That would mean you can already play it, and have acquired the skill you need. 

You can practice a small chunk of it.  It might have to be very small.  And it will be hands separate.  But you can do it, then slow that down. 

[danny elfboy]

I don't think you can practice the whole piece fast.   That would mean you can already play it, and have acquired the skill you need. 

You can practice a small chunk of it.  It might have to be very small.  And it will be hands separate.  But you can do it, then slow that down. 

I have read Chang book and most of Bernahrd post
What they said I already "INTUITIVELY" knew and applied to my practice instinctively (that's why I don't agree in calling the "popular method" the "intuitive methods"
So I already did small section practice, HS, thinking of my practicing time as solving technical problems, making loops out of difficult coordination passages ...

But what I have never understood is the fast-practice theory
I too meet speed walls as I play first a piece slow and the try to speed it up

So we were told that we needed to choose a chunck small enough that we can play FAST from the very beginning so we can know the right movements and not using "slow unappropriate movements"
Only that I never found a chunk small enough. Even if I choose 4 notes I can't play "FAST" from the beginning without missing all the notes or hurting my hands
So I have to resort to practicing the passage as slow as I can
According to Bernhard this will just ingrain the "wrong movements" and when I will have to play fast it will be like relearning the whole piece (hence I've wasted my time)

So the next theory was that you just need to find the "right fast movement" the first time and then you can practice slow but "using the movements that you know to work well at fast speed"
But again this require me to "try" fast speed on a passage the first time I play it and no matter how small the passage is, I can't play it fast without missing of all the note or hurting my hands

The last resort was parallel sets
If the passage is to hard, "play it as a chord" which is like "the fastest speed possible (at the same time)" and "roll the chord" so as to make a passage out of the perfect chord.
But this never worked with me. The ability to play the chord well didn't translate in making the passage easier at a very fast speed

I think I have covered all ...
Can someone help me understand the controversy?

[asyncopated]

I really can't remember the last time that I had to think about speed. I've been playing for slighly two years and somehow over that last year or so the problem has disappeared completely.

I do think about tempo -- this is different from speed in that its about musicality rather than technicality.

Here is my one and only suggestion for now.  Don't think about speed, forget that it ever existed.  Think about two things in the following order for every note you play,as part of a phrase

1. sound,
2. movement and touch.

Try this for a week and see if the speed just sort of falls into place after a while.

how does someone practice a piece in "slow motion"?
How do you find the movements that you would use at fast speed and then "slow them down" rather than using unefficient movements that work only at a slow speed?

the best way is to get someone to show you.  It's very difficult to learn touch and movement without first seeing it.  There are too many details to describe. 


for example,  rightnow I am playing a debussy piece. 

The movment for chords has to be deep, and played onto the bed of the yes.  Also, each time a chord is played, there needs to be a sense of continuous release and preperation in a circular motion for the next chord, which is played in a higher wrist position.

Whereas, the movement for appegio chords is a glide action, where each note blurs into the next.  the best way to describe it, is that your fingers feel light like cotton.

I could keep doing this but really, you won't learn much.  Seeing how to do it is essential.
That's what your teacher is there for, ask him/her to show you.

[danny elfboy]

I really can't remember the last time that I had to think about speed. I've been playing for slighly two years and somehow over that last year or so the problem has disappeared completely.

I do think about tempo -- this is different from speed in that its about musicality rather than technicality.

Here is my one and only suggestion for now.  Don't think about speed, forget that it ever existed.  Think about two things in the following order for every note you play,as part of a phrase

1. sound,
2. movement and touch.

Try this for a week and see if the speed just sort of falls into place after a while.

Thanks for your advice!

When I consciously think about speed I try to speed up by adding "tension"
I think this is a rather known "modern instinct"
For example people trying to running faster by tensing the legs or trying to hit something with more strength by tensing the punch
You know, as if more speed o strength came from "more effort" and hence "more tension"

I notice that when I don't consciously think of speed but "ease" then I automatically play faster. In fact I think I play faster by consciously thinking "slow"
And tense more hence reducing the speed by consciously think "fast"

[asyncopated]

Thanks for your advice!
Thinking about what you said I have noticed this (tell me what you think)

When I consciously think about speed I try to speed up by adding "tension"
I think this is a rather known "modern instinct"
For example people trying to running faster by tensing the legs or trying to hit something with more strength by tensing the punch
You know, as if more speed o strength came from "more effort" and hence "more tension"

I notice that when I don't consciously think of speed but "ease" then I automatically play faster. In fact I think I play faster by consciously thinking "slow"
And tense more hence reducing the speed by consciously think "fast"

Does that make sense?

To me it does.  I just read your other post and realised that you are probably playing at a more advanced level than I am so, your technical problems maybe of a different order of difficulty to mine  .  Anyway, I think you are right.  If you try to hear the sound in your head first, and convey that ideal sound through your playing, I find that speed does not really enter the picture. 

As you've mentioned, I realised that before the problems that I did have were due primarily to tension and not having good movement, so one of the first things I did was to try to get rid of tension.  However, after awhile I realised that this is not good enough, what I also needed to convey the piece properly was to develop touch.  If you have those things nailed, playing should basically feel "easy" when you practice. 

Problems usually creep in if I miss any of the steps.  If I can't picture the sound in my head, usually there will be problems with basic pulse, so fast passages become uneven.  If I don't have good movement, Idevelop tension and start falling apart after awhile. Lastly, if I don't have touch, it will just not sound good, as it will be difficult to give direction and phrasing to these fast passages -- this is very important not only for musicality but also to make life easy and  so that the audience can understand what I am trying to convey.

Hope some of this helps.