Finding a Classical Sonata

[phil13]

Hello once again.

Read this before posting any suggestions, please.



My teacher has told me that I should find a Classical sonata that is simple to master, for the sake of not having to struggle with anything- He first suggested looking at the Kuhlau Sonatinas, which I did- and they bore me horribly. To give you an idea of my limited past experience, I have played the following complete Classical sonatas:

Mozart K.545 C major
Mozart K.457 C minor
Beethoven Op.49 No.2 G major
Beethoven Op.27 No.2 C# minor

Also, I am currently finishing up learning Beethoven's Sonata Op.28 in D major. Now, I need to find something that is easier than those I have written here, is not horribly often played, and is not by either Mozart or Beethoven.

The following names piqued my interest:

Clementi
Dussek
Hummel

Now, I will admit I know almost nothing of the sonatas by these composers. Can anyone suggest a sonata by one of these composers that is interesting to listen to and play, but also is of a less technically demanding level than what I have already played? (This means not listing just the 'easiest' of their Sonatas, but finding one which might suit me well.) Are there any that stand out as easier or harder than the norm of their sets?

Also, to give you an idea of where I am now, this is what I am learning at the moment besides the 'Pastorale':

Grieg Sonata in E minor Op.7 (finishing last mvt.)
Rachmaninoff Prelude Op.23 No.7 in C minor
Medtner Skazka Op.26 No.3 in F minor (interpretation work)

and what I shall be learning soon:

Bach Prelude and Fugue in E major Book II
Chopin Etude in F minor Op.25 No.2
Chopin Nocturne Op.27 No.1 in C# minor OR Op.55 No.2 in Eb major
A myriad of Grieg Lyric Pieces (for the same 'mastering' reasons that explain why I need an easier sonata)

Thank you in advance. I realize this is probably not a simple question to answer...

Phil

[mikey6]

Why not try a Haydn sonata? He's generally not played as often as the other 2 so you could pick any really.  Hob 50 and 52 would be the obvious choice but for something a little more obscure but still fun, Hob 48 in Cmaj and Hob 35 in Cmaj.  Hob 32 in bmin is interesting, difficuolt to interpret though.
As for the other composers you listed, I'm don't know many of their works - Clementi you could try the bmin sonata which is a good work or there's an Amaj which isn't hard but not sure of the number.

[ekirth]

The Kuhlau sonatinas are much too easy given your repertoire...I'd second the idea of Haydn. I don't remember any of the Clementi I played before, so I'm not much help there; I haven't heard of the other two.

Hope you find a nice piece, though. 

[desordre]

 Dear Phil:
 Something is weird. If you did play Mozart's 457 and Beethoven's opus 27/2, you are probably able to play a lot of interesting, intermediate-"quasi advanced" classical sonatas. By no means your experience looks "limited", maybe is just a matter of planning.
 Mr. Mikey remark for Haydn ones is a good advice, although the sonatas 50 and 52 are lenghty and tricky. Some suggestions:
 - Mozart: K 280 or 282;
 - Beethoven: opus 02/1, opus 79.
 However, my most sincere advice must be: play something you love. This "rule" is my first one always, and in the case of greater works (such as a sonata) it cannot be avoided.
 Would you let me ask you something? How many years you've been playing?
 Best wishes!

[cygnusdei]

Maybe a little off topic, but is the Haydn Variations in F minor Hob XVII/6 considered a sonata?

[phil13]

Maybe a little off topic, but is the Haydn Variations in F minor Hob XVII/6 considered a sonata?

No, I don't think so.

Dear Phil:
 Something is weird. If you did play Mozart's 457 and Beethoven's opus 27/2, you are probably able to play a lot of interesting, intermediate-"quasi advanced" classical sonatas. 

 

Well, here's the thing:

I had a teacher when I began playing piano who assigned works to me that were far too difficult. One of these was the 'Moonlight' Sonata. So, technically I did play the whole thing, including in concert, but I never fully mastered it. Thus, it's not really in my repertoire anymore, and it won't be for a long time, until the bad habits and the tension can be reworked and eliminated.

K.457, on the other hand, I did master- I learned it about a year ago, and still play it now. *** hard, though. Not the greatest pick for a first real Mozart sonata.

By no means your experience looks "limited", maybe is just a matter of planning.
 Mr. Mikey remark for Haydn ones is a good advice, although the sonatas 50 and 52 are lenghty and tricky. Some suggestions:
 - Mozart: K 280 or 282;
 - Beethoven: opus 02/1, opus 79. 

I want to try something that isn't Mozart or Beethoven. What sonatas did Haydn write in the minor keys? I might take a look at those.

However, my most sincere advice must be: play something you love. This "rule" is my first one always, and in the case of greater works (such as a sonata) it cannot be avoided.   

I agree. There are a lot of works that I love by both Mozart an Beethoven, notably K.330 in C major and Op.7 in Eb major, respectively. Op.7, actually, was the one my teacher and I originally agreed on, but we later decided that I ought to do something at a lower difficulty level before tackling that.


 

Would you let me ask you something? How many years you've been playing?

6 years. I began at about 11-12.

Another question: Does anyone know anything about the difficulty of Clementi's Sonata in Bb major, Op.41 No.2? I heard Horowitz play the last mvt. the other day and would really like to check out the whole thing.

Phil

[Kassaa]

What do you consider mastering a piece?

[phil13]

What do you consider mastering a piece?

Since perfection is not objectively possible:

Having complete control over a piece and playing it- completely controlled- to the best of your technical and musical ability. That way, the piece grows as your abilities grow and it gets better and better as your life progresses.

Fair enough answer?

Phil

[kd]

I should find a Classical sonata that is simple to master, for the sake of not having to struggle with anything

What is the purpose of this? Isn't it more profitable to learn a sonata that poses some technical challenges appropriate to your level? At least, that's the way I'm being treated and it seems to work most of the time.

What sonatas did Haydn write in the minor keys? I might take a look at those.

You can look at Hob XVI/20 in C minor (very nice, but there are some tricky passages), Hob XVI/32 in B minor (it seems to fit your description of "not having to struggle with anything", possibly except for a few bars in the third movement), Hob XVI/34 in E minor (also seems appropriate), Hob XVI/36 in C sharp major (though it doesn't follow standard 3-movement structure), Hob XVI/40 and Hob XVI/44 in G major (both have only 2-movements, which can be a counterindication).
What is the reason you restrict yourself only to minor keys? At least for Haydn, most sonatas are written in major keys.

There are a lot of works that I love by both Mozart an Beethoven, notably K.330 in C major and Op.7 in Eb major, respectively. Op.7, actually, was the one my teacher and I originally agreed on, but we later decided that I ought to do something at a lower difficulty level before tackling that.

But be sure to return to Op. 7 one day. It is a neglected masterpiece.

[phil13]

What is the purpose of this? Isn't it more profitable to learn a sonata that poses some technical challenges appropriate to your level? At least, that's the way I'm being treated and it seems to work most of the time. 

I just want a relief period after the batch of music I'm learning at the moment. I will be performing a 90-minute recital in about a month and a half, and have been pushing myself further and further for the last 2 years. I just want a quick breather- there's no harm in that, is there? After a few months, I'll pick up challenging pieces again. Actually, I will be beginning to practice scales and exercises as well, and also removing a nasty habit of tension in the right thumb (hence Chopin 25-2)

You can look at Hob XVI/20 in C minor (very nice, but there are some tricky passages), Hob XVI/32 in B minor (it seems to fit your description of "not having to struggle with anything", possibly except for a few bars in the third movement), Hob XVI/34 in E minor (also seems appropriate), Hob XVI/36 in C sharp major (though it doesn't follow standard 3-movement structure), Hob XVI/40 and Hob XVI/44 in G major (both have only 2-movements, which can be a counterindication).
What is the reason you restrict yourself only to minor keys? At least for Haydn, most sonatas are written in major keys.

I am just finishing a very happy, optimistic Beethoven sonata. I want something with a little more wistfulness or heroic feeling or something that contrasts otherwise. Thank you for pointing those out- I know almost nothing of Haydn's sonatas except for the E minor one you mentioned.

But be sure to return to Op. 7 one day. It is a neglected masterpiece.

I will be learning it as soon as I complete whichever one I pick now. Don't worry, it's not really going anywhere.

Phil

[kd]

I just want a quick breather-
I want something with a little more wistfulness or heroic feeling or something that contrasts otherwise.

I think Hob XVI/32 meets these demands. This is actually a half-Classical sonata in the sense that structurally it's obviously classical, but in the melody line, harmony etc. it appears to be perhaps more Baroque (in some ways it resembles things like Prelude No. 5 from WTC II). If this suits your taste, you can take it as you shouldn't have any serious technical difficulties. Movements I and II are fairly easy (my teacher actually used them as a sightreading exercise for me), the only nasty thing being a few ornaments. Movement III is slightly harder, but assuming you're not going to aim at playing it very fast, no serious problems should occur either (typical things there include B-C#-D-C#-B-C#-D#-C#-B-... in 16ths at MM=138-144). Overall, the sonata shouldn't turn out to be very demanding technically. I hope it can qualify as a "quick breather".

I am just finishing a very happy, optimistic Beethoven sonata.

That's Pastoral, right? I haven't touched it myself, but I've recently heard two stage performances, both of which seemed to be very nice throughout but were terribly spoiled in the final Presto (and hence the overall impression was badly affected). Perhaps that happened partially because the ending is not only happy and optimistic, but also a bit showy. So you have to make sure that the ending is 100% secure. Looking at the score, I noticed things like E-D-C#-D-D(an octave higher)-D. I suppose when the fingering is 3-1-2-1-5-1 the thumb might become tense and the whole run becomes very uneven and some strong accents appear when they shouldn't (that's what happened in one of the renditions). So a better solution seems to be to use 4-3-2-1-5-1, but then accuracy of the 5th finger becomes an issue (and that was the weakness in the other). Did you experience similar problems in this particular run or the technical challenges of the sonata are hidden in other places?
Sorry if this is too off-topic, I just thought these remarks might turn out useful.

[phil13]

That's Pastoral, right? I haven't touched it myself, but I've recently heard two stage performances, both of which seemed to be very nice throughout but were terribly spoiled in the final Presto (and hence the overall impression was badly affected). Perhaps that happened partially because the ending is not only happy and optimistic, but also a bit showy. So you have to make sure that the ending is 100% secure. Looking at the score, I noticed things like E-D-C#-D-D(an octave higher)-D. I suppose when the fingering is 3-1-2-1-5-1 the thumb might become tense and the whole run becomes very uneven and some strong accents appear when they shouldn't (that's what happened in one of the renditions). So a better solution seems to be to use 4-3-2-1-5-1, but then accuracy of the 5th finger becomes an issue (and that was the weakness in the other). Did you experience similar problems in this particular run or the technical challenges of the sonata are hidden in other places?
Sorry if this is too off-topic, I just thought these remarks might turn out useful.

Thanks for the heads-up on securing the final passage. I'm actually still learning the last mvt. right now, and yes, I find that end section to be the most difficult part for the right hand in the whole sonata (the left hand is challenged in the Trio of the Scherzo)

As for the fingering, I use a combination. 212151-312151-432151-arpeggio. Might be a little unorthodox, but for my hand, that feels the most comfortable. It's getting better every day.

Technical issues aren't really abundant in the 'Pastorale'. there are a few quick passages in the 1st mvt, and a very tricky pedaling issue in the 2nd, and of course the mentioned problems in the Scherzo and Rondo. Unfortunately, it's main difficulty lies in musicality, which can take way longer to get right. I've been working on this sonata for almost 5 months- most of that was on the 1st mvt though. That's another reason to pick something sweet and simple before doing Op.7.


Phil

[cloches_de_geneve]

How about Schubert? He is considered a classical composer by most and most of his sonatas are still underplayed:

Well manageable at your level:

For example, a-minor D 537 or b major D575

A bit more challenging are:

a-major 664 and a-minor 784

Definitely challenging but certainly not less interesting than Beethoven's op. 7:

a-minor D845
g-major D894
a-major D959
bflat-major D960

Requiring very advanced technical proficiency:

d-major D850
c-minor D958

[soliloquy]

Mozart K. 533 in F Major always comes in handy for any future competitions.

[kd]

Mozart K. 533 in F Major always comes in handy for any future competitions.

But this one can't be possibly called a quick breather, can it? This one and K 576 seem to be actually considered the most difficult Mozart sonatas.

[soliloquy]

But this one can't be possibly called a quick breather, can it? This one and K 576 seem to be actually considered the most difficult Mozart sonatas.

Technically the K. 533 isn't that tough; it just has a lot of musical substance and takes maturity.  I felt it would be at least a step down from some of the suggestions like Schubert D894 or Beethoven Pastoral

[phil13]

Does anyone know anything about the Clementi, Hummel or Dussek sonatas?

Phil

[cygnusdei]

Does anyone know anything about the Clementi, Hummel or Dussek sonatas?

Phil

I happen to love Hummel sonatas. There are 6 sonatas (apart from 3 spurious ones). They tend to be rather demanding technically. Sonata no. 3 in F minor is absolutely beautiful and not too hard. The more popular one is no. 2 in E flat, but I don't like this one because the third movement is also in sonata form - it would have been a excellent 1st movement.

At any rate, I don't recommend these if you want something simple to master. Sonata no. 6 in D, IMO, is on par with the Waldsteins and Hammerklaviers out there in terms of difficulty.

[pianowelsh]

There is a cute one by Haydn in D maj (forget hob) but it has cheapy bits in it (grace notes). It isnt SO hard and its a great repertoire piece. I consider it much easier than the pastorale. which interpretively is one of the Hardest sonatas of that period! - Bravo

[phil13]

How difficult, technically and interpratively, is Mozart's K.330 in C major?

I realize this may be skewed by the musical difficulty of playing Mozart in general.

Also, does anybody know about Dussek's Sonata in F minor Op.77 'L'Invocation' (this may be a lost cause on this forum  )

I happen to love Hummel sonatas. There are 6 sonatas (apart from 3 spurious ones). They tend to be rather demanding technically. Sonata no. 3 in F minor is absolutely beautiful and not too hard.

Do you have the music for No.3? Or a rec that you could suggest to me?

Technically the K. 533 isn't that tough; it just has a lot of musical substance and takes maturity. I felt it would be at least a step down from some of the suggestions like Schubert D894 or Beethoven Pastoral

I seriously doubt that I would first tackle the Schubert G major Sonata, but the Pastorale is what I'm learning right now- it wasn't a suggestion.

As for Mozart K.533- I don't know it well, but I was told that the one I've done, K.457, was one of the most difficult, in which case if the other posters are correct this is probably around the same level, in which case I wouldn't want to do it right away. 9 months on a sonata that's way too hard for me feels pointless.

Phil

[phil13]

There is a cute one by Haydn in D maj (forget hob) but it has cheapy bits in it (grace notes). It isnt SO hard and its a great repertoire piece. 

Haydn wrote several in D major, if I'm not mistaken. There are a whole bunch of them in the sheet music section of this site. Take a glance at it, and if it's there, please let me know the Hob. number.

I consider it much easier than the pastorale. which interpretively is one of the Hardest sonatas of that period! - Bravo

NOW someone tells me. 

Phil

[thalbergmad]

Also, does anybody know about Dussek's Sonata in F minor Op.77 'L'Invocation' (this may be a lost cause on this forum  )

Not a lost cause for me old chap.

Due to my inability to concentrate on 1 piece at a time, i have only played around with it as opposed to actually playing it. In my opinion, it is a work of genius by a neglected composer. It has a tragic feel to it.

The attached pdf gives you a little background info.

However, judging by what you have said about your current rep, you might wish to leave it at this stage of your pianistic development.

Thal

[imbetter]

Id say a clementi. THeyre probaly the easiest

[phil13]

Id say a clementi. THeyre probaly the easiest

But which one?

I wonder if they've been ranked.

Phil

[kd]

But which one?

I wonder if they've been ranked.

I'm no expert on Clementi sonatas, but the only one I touched, namely Op. 34 No. 1 in C major, was neither technically simple (1st mvt) nor musically interesting. It comes back to me only in nightmares Anyway, it discouraged me for getting deeper into Clementi.

Haydn wrote several in D major, if I'm not mistaken. There are a whole bunch of them in the sheet music section of this site. Take a glance at it, and if it's there, please let me know the Hob. number.

The following sonatas by Haydn in the range Hob. XVI/18-52 (which probably includes all "worth to play", i.e. not too early) are in D major: XVI/19, 24, 33, 37, 42, 51.

There is a cute one by Haydn in D maj (forget hob) but it has cheapy bits in it (grace notes). It isnt SO hard and its a great repertoire piece.

This indicates it has to be 37. It's the only one of those listed above with the first theme beginning with some grace-notes. It is a great piece. However, its lively character isn't perhaps distinct enough from that of Pastorale.
I still stand by XVI/32 as a piece contrasting enough.

As for Mozart K.533- I don't know it well, but I was told that the one I've done, K.457, was one of the most difficult, in which case if the other posters are correct this is probably around the same level, in which case I wouldn't want to do it right away. 9 months on a sonata that's way too hard for me feels pointless.

That's interesting, I always thought that K 310 and K 457, the only Mozart sonatas in minor keys (and incidentally the ones I like most), are not the same level, the one in A minor being significantly harder and the one in C minor not being among the hardest ones. However, I haven't tried any of these, so maybe I'm just mistaken. I hope I'll get to K 310 one day. Anyway, working on good interpretation of K 533 has to be a real challenge.

[kelly_kelly]

According to Bernhard:

Grade 5:

K 545 in C major

Grade 6:

K 280 in F major
K 282 in Eb major
K 570 in Bb major

Grade 7:

K 279 in C major
K 283 in G major
K311 in D major
K331 in A major

Grade 8:

K281 in Bb major
K284 in D major
K309 in C major
K330 in C major
K333 in Bb major
K475 (Fantasia) in C minor
K457 in C minor

Grade 8+:

K 310 in A minor
K332 in F major
K533/K494 in F major
K 576 in D major

(in a progressive order of difficulty)

Sorry about the off-topic post 

[pianowelsh]

Hi phil..i checked!!its the 16/37 one i was referring to! I really enjoy it its the epitome of classical style. A real joy to play and listen to - and not a killer!