Christmas and the push to remove its religious meaning

[quantum]

This is a religious topic. No anti-religion bashing or complaints.


Saw a discussion on TV recently.  It was about people who want to call a Christmas Tree a Holiday tree.  Must be some attempt at not offending other religions.  I find this disturbing, and so did the hosts on TV.  Society's push for political correctness is getting out of hand.  Instead of an increased acceptance of differing views and diversity, we are moving towards the sterilization of ideas with which we disagree or feel uncomfortable with.

Universities in the part of Canada where I live accept the Jewish holidays, we don't fuss about other people deciding to cover their face for religious reasons, yet some are taken back by any mention of Christ and His connection with Christmas. 

People, it's a Christmas tree.  Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. 

Discuss....

[jpianoflorida]

it's funny, people don't mind getting time off work for "Christmas" , then some of those same people are pushing to not use  the word CHRISTMAS!   So if you don't believe in Christmas and don't want to celebrate the birth of our Savior, then maybe those people should volunteer to work on CHRISTMAS and the days surrounding CHRISTMAS and just not celebrate, not get or give presents, etc.      So many people only want things when it's convenient for their needs.    I have no problem with any other religious holidays celebrated by any religion.    Last year, a Muslim student that doesn't celebrate Christmas brought me a gift.  That was so cool!   Wasn't it great that he respected my beliefs, just as I do him and his family.

[mephisto]

Chirstmas was not originaly a christian celebration.....

[thalbergmad]

Holiday trees, festive lights and multi fatih cards, all work of the PC police.

The most important question is do people from other religions really care, or is it just politicians and council busybodies?

Thal

[pianistimo]

anything commercialized is bound to have a 'superficial' meaning - no matter what holiday.  i think that it's in one's heart as to what you personally take to mean giving.  i think giving of one's heart can happen every day - but - if i were observing x-mas i'd think that buying presents for children who normally don't get any and are hoping for some would be better than a tree that was beautifully decorated.

[ahinton]

De-Christmasising Christmas is patently ridiculous. Christmas remains Christmas for all that want to celebrate it in whatever ways they choose. Thal's reference to the "PC police" is very much to the point and, whilst I doubt that many people will have considered this, I anticipate that those most offended will not necessarily be "Christians" or even "non-Christians" per se but those for whom the Christmas festivity period is of necessity NOT a "holiday" period - in other words, those on whom the rest of us depend for entertainment and leisure, essential services (including emergency ones) and the dispensation of religious services.

A Muslim friend of mine wanly described this PC-police "deChristmasisation" fetish as analgous to pretending that, as a Muslim, he was a follower of Is-not-lam...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

I love christmas. All of my closest familly is there. We eat a great meal, talk about everything, eat coockies and all of that. Than it is all of the presents. Maybe we play some cards. Than the snow just makes the atmosphere so perfect.

[mad_max2024]

I think christmas stopped being christian a long time ago...

[mephisto]

delete

[chopiabin]

It's all part of the war on Christianity. It really is tragic how Christianity is persecuted in this country. Everyone needs to speak out for Christian rights! Just the other day I saw the cops pull over a minivan going 90 with a "truth" jesus-fish eating a "Darwin"  jesus-fish, and I was mortified. It was an obvious case of religion profiling and an obvious trampling of this suburban white man's civil rights. I say that every person should be seen equally under the law, and that includes Christians.

[pianistimo]

despite my best straight face, this has got to be the most confounding paragraph i've read in days.  ok.  we're tied for novel writing. (i hope it wasn't me going 90 mph. - i usually only do that whilst pulling out of the driveway).

[mycrabface]

This is a religious topic. No anti-religion bashing or complaints.


Saw a discussion on TV recently.  It was about people who want to call a Christmas Tree a Holiday tree.  Must be some attempt at not offending other religions.  I find this disturbing, and so did the hosts on TV.  Society's push for political correctness is getting out of hand.  Instead of an increased acceptance of differing views and diversity, we are moving towards the sterilization of ideas with which we disagree or feel uncomfortable with.

Universities in the part of Canada where I live accept the Jewish holidays, we don't fuss about other people deciding to cover their face for religious reasons, yet some are taken back by any mention of Christ and His connection with Christmas. 

People, it's a Christmas tree.  Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. 

Discuss....

I had this junk email saying that the celebration of christmas without knowing why you celebrate it is an evil distraction from the devil.

[prometheus]

This is a religious topic. No anti-religion bashing or complaints.

what? Why?

If you don't want people to post their on topic opinions, views and arguments then just don't open a topic.

No one is trying to remove religion from Christmas. It is a natural development of culture. No one is pushing.

Let us first realise that Christmas is a pagan holiday. Not a Christian holiday. The tree has nothing to do with christmas. Those trees don't even grow in the near east, obviously. If you want to celebrate 'christian christmas', whatever that is because I don't think it can even exist, then throw our your 'holiday tree'.

The 'christmas tree' celebrates Thor(or Donar). If you don't want to celebrate Thor and his 'evergreen' then throw it out of your house. Otherwise, please.

No one knows when Christ, if he even ever existed, when he was supposedly to be born. No date, not even a year. The chance that December 25 is the correct date is 1 in 365.

The origin of 25 december lies in the germanic Yule and the roman Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, the celebration of the roman/greek/persian/'pagan' gods like Mithras, Sol Invictus(El Gabal) and Helios.

Do you want to worship pagan gods? Celebrate christmas. If you don't want to, then don't.

Second, the reason that christmas is secularised is because people do no longer buy religious non-sense. I guess maybe you should provide evidence for religion. And then more people will start to practice religion.
Face it, people start to realise that religious people are lying for power and money. Those that propose religion in the US often deny reality. As long as people like for example Pianostimo claim that all evidence for evolution is a forgery you are no better than muslims that reject evolution because they think it is a christian conspiracy.

No one will buy it, people will laugh and be afraid you people will throw civilisation away the same way as happened in the islamic world in the 14th century. People will show no respect because you don't deserve any.

Modern people are too educated and intelligent and no longer naive enough to just believe the excellent public relations US based Christianity is so famous for.

You have to face the fact that in the western world religion will probably be declared compelely dead in your life time. It is already dead in western Europe.

What about Japan? There are hardly any Christian people there. Yet they massively celebrate Christianity. What do you think about that? What about the rest of asia?

And what is the reason? Isn't it US cultural imperialism drived by capitalism?


As for jewish people being offended. Maybe religious people just have a thin skin. They can't take critisims. They have no sense of humor. Just one cartoon and they go on a killing spree, destroying embessys. Maybe if you stop being offended as a christian you jewish and islamic brothers and sisters will start to do the same thing. In the end you people have the same delusion.
I mean, didn't you choose to be offended by the fact that Jewish people choose to be offended and people are being considerate.


You should never be considerate towards a religious person that chooses to be offended because of some silly reason.

[ahinton]

Holiday trees, festive lights and multi fatih cards, all work of the PC police.

The most important question is do people from other religions really care, or is it just politicians and council busybodies?

Thal

I think that, by implication, you've answered your own question here; in fact, it's perhaps even more disspiriting than you might have considered, since certain Muslims are either puzzled by, or even actively disapprove, of this kind of action from the PC police.

Best,

Alistair

[chopiabin]

No one is "pushing to remove the religious meaning" of Christmas. It has become a consumer's holiday - corporations drive people to near hysteria over video games or furbies - when was the last time you saw suburban moms trampling each other for the sake of religious values?

In a highly individualistic and prosperous society like ours, morality has a tendency to relax, and, in the face of modern science and philosophy, it becomes increasingly difficult for those who choose intellectual honesty and integrity over small-minded piety to maintain belief in  ancient and dogmatic religions. We have outgrown absolute morality in whatever guise - it is time to create something else .

Christianity seems quite provincial, vulgar, and anti-natural when viewed from a short distance - Christ as the ancient arhetype of the "scapegoat"; the pagan notion of child sacrifice; the absurdity of both the "virgin birth" and the "resurrection". That otherwise rational people can still take such mythology (bad mythology at that) as truth is beyond me - I guess it is a testament to the laziness of of society's mediocre. They would rather rest comfortably in the status quo than face any possible pain that might accompany the discovery of themselves or truth.

That rational, successful, and educated people can still believe in a religion that maintains that man is inherently flawed and doomed to eternal punishment unless he is "redeemed" - it strikes me as incredulous.   

[ahinton]

No one is "pushing to remove the religious meaning" of Christmas.

A few people are, I think, but I accept that they are well in the minority; what is happening instead is a broader attempt to undermine it, using the excuse that it might be potentially offensive to those of faiths other than the Christian one (a fatuous excuse if ever there was one).

It has become a consumer's holiday - corporations drive people to near hysteria over video games or furbies - when was the last time you saw suburban moms trampling each other for the sake of religious values?

Good point - and, again, this rabid commercialism around Christmas time is there to undermine - or rather supplant - what Christians would seek to celebrate at that time of the year - but then this is a certain aspect of rampant consumerism and, if it weren't Christmastide opportunism, it would be some other festival or event that would be pressed into service for it.

In a highly individualistic and prosperous society like ours, morality has a tendency to relax, and, in the face of modern science and philosophy, it becomes increasingly difficult for those who choose intellectual honesty and integrity over small-minded piety to maintain belief in ancient and dogmatic religions. We have outgrown absolute morality in whatever guise - it is time to create something else.

Whilst you do indeed have a valid point here, I think that the problem is that the complacent religious person is serving neither his/her religion nor him/herself well by such complacency. Christianity and other religions do not have to be dogmatic and inflexible and, indeed, many of their practitioners are simply no longer like that. I do not believe that Christ expected those who follow his ways not to think or to question. It is, I think, perfectly possible to subscribe to a religion but still question matters, retain doubts and think. Life moves on - and religion can move on with it without undermining itself; if religion does not move with the times, it will undermine itself. The fact that there remain certain kinds of fundamentals in human conduct and aspirations should alone keep religion alive; it's all a matter of balance and proportion, it seems to me.

Christianity seems quite provincial, vulgar, and anti-natural when viewed from a short distance - Christ as the ancient arhetype of the "scapegoat"; the pagan notion of child sacrifice; the absurdity of both the "virgin birth" and the "resurrection". That otherwise rational people can still take such mythology (bad mythology at that) as truth is beyond me - I guess it is a testament to the laziness of of society's mediocre. They would rather rest comfortably in the status quo than face any possible pain that might accompany the discovery of themselves or truth.

That rational, successful, and educated people can still believe in a religion that maintains that man is inherently flawed and doomed to eternal punishment unless he is "redeemed" - it strikes me as incredulous.   

It strikes me as pretty odd, too - but then I have usually found that those who adhere doggedly to this kind of thing (amongst the Christians, anyway) are usually those who take the Bible far too literally and don't read and think about sufficient literature outside the Bible.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

A few people are, I think, but I accept that they are well in the minority; what is happening instead is a broader attempt to undermine it, using the excuse that it might be potentially offensive to those of faiths other than the Christian one (a fatuous excuse if ever there was one).

What do you mean by that? Surely no one is forcing christians to have a secular holiday.

If people decide to celebrate a secular christianity does that mean they are pushing to remove religious meaning? They aren't pushing anything on anyone.

Actually, I am sure there are some christians that think no one should have a secular christmas. So if someone is pushing it's them.

As for those jewish people that want christmas trees removed. Aren't they actually saying that christmas is not only totally christian but also that it can be nothing else but totally christian?

[ahinton]

What do you mean by that? Surely no one is forcing christians to have a secular holiday.

No - and I am not suggesting that this is the case, either; what is happening instead is that some people are urging others to remove references to Christmas from what have been regarded as traditional Christmas festivities. That is, of course, very different to telling Christians that they should either not attend Church at Christmas time or that their Church services should have references to Christmas removed. The "idea" (if one could elevate it by describing it as such) seems to be to want to confine anything and everything to do with Christmas to the Christian Church.

If people decide to celebrate a secular christianity does that mean they are pushing to remove religious meaning? They aren't pushing anything on anyone.

No - and I did not suggest that it does - but what exactly do you mean by a "secular Christianity"? I assume that you are referring to Christians choosing to participate in secular festivities as well as religious ones at Christmas time (but please correct me if I have misunderstood you here).

Actually, I am sure there are some christians that think no one should have a secular christmas. So if someone is pushing it's them.

My view on dogmatic and dictatorial "Christians" of this type is surely already well known on this forum.

As for those jewish people that want christmas trees removed. Aren't they actually saying that christmas is not only totally christian but also that it can be nothing else but totally christian?

I don't know. I have never discussed this with any Jew that wants Christmas trees removed at Christmas time, because I've never met a Jew who has called for this.

I have a wonderful memory of the first day of Divali in Mauritius in 1990 where the Hindu majority opened its festival by opening their houses and decorating them, their gardens and the streets with lit candles as sunset approached; the festival was not only celebrated by the Hindus but shared by the Christians and also the rather smaller number of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Sikhs. There was nothing either commercial or secularist about this, but the wholesale absence of any religious bigotry of the "I'm right and you're wrong" kind was palpable. I have never been to Mauritius at Christmas time, but I very much doubt that the Hindus would go around trying to persuade any Christians to remove their Christmas trees and to refer to holidays" rather than "Christmas", any more than I'd imagine that Christians there would dream of expecting the Hindus to remove the word "Divali" from their festival when that takes place.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

i think giving should be done in secret - because that is what the bible proposes.  i don't see any secular system that encourages giving.  it's survival of the fittest.  even though christmas may have a pagan origin - you do at least have an idea from the bible about giving to others.

on the other hand, it seems that the cost of living is so high that one goes into debt over this never ending 'charity.'  tipping endless people that have been kind to you.  i think we should blow it all up and start over again.  perhaps just sending a card and letter and mailing presents after x-mas when the after x-mas sales are on and things are a better price.  this is probably not going to be a popular idea - but it would save money.

homemade gifts are another cheap idea.  i mean, if you know how to knit and make three scarves over the summer - you've got a three for one.  unfortunately nothing i ever knit looked like anything.  and, of course, i tried the usual 'let send them some cookies.'  but, my gingerbread cookies ended up tasting nasty because i put too much spices in them.  i could barely eat them myself. 

well, anyways - martha stewart always has some good ideas.  one year she suggested going out and collecting pine cones and wood - and putting them in a container with a ribbon - for neighbor's fireplace.  some lighter sticks and something that smells good to burn with the wood.  that's almost too cheap - but it still sounds good. 

[prometheus]

What is happening instead is that some people are urging others to remove references to Christmas from what have been regarded as traditional Christmas festivities.

This is very vague, 'some people', 'others', 'references' etc. I still don't understand what you mean.

I thought there was this thing called 'the war on christmas' in which people have criticised the use of 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'. Things like that.

[prometheus]

i think giving should be done in secret - because that is what the bible proposes.  i don't see any secular system that encourages giving.

Most charity organisations don't have a religious bias.

Also, maybe you should try to find out which person gives away the most money and what religion this person has.

Anyway, religion has nothing to do with ethics, morals and values.

it's survival of the fittest.

What survival of the fittest? This doesn't make any sense. Survival of the fittest is something from evolution. What has this got to do with what you are talking about?

  even though christmas may have a pagan origin - you do at least have an idea from the bible about giving to others.

Since when is christmas about giving according to the bible?

There is no mentioning of christmas in the whole bible. There is nothing in the bible that says you should celebrate the birth of Jesus, at all. Let alone that it should be done through giving.


Christmas is a purely pagan holiday. Santa is a non-christian Saint Nicholas. The tree is a symbol of Thor. Giving presents to children is just something parents do on holidays. It's just a party to celebrate the beginning of the end of winter. Like Yule.

There is nothing in there about giving because of 'love thy neighbour'. There is nothing christian about christmas. Except this silly idea that the son of god was born on that day.

on the other hand, it seems that the cost of living is so high that one goes into debt over this never ending 'charity.'

So what are you going to eat during christmas. I am going to fast.

In my country each year people spend more money during christmas. I bet most of the food that is bought is thrown away.

The cost of living is not high. We in the west are generally bloody right. We don't even know what to do with it so we just waste it in an event called christmas. Hey, it's good for the economy.

[pianistimo]

agreed, prometheus, about non-secular people sometimes being very generous and able to sponsor many things through endowments, etc.  i'm not disagreeing that.  but if you grow up in a secular way of thinking - it's really a matter of giving and getting equally.  isn't it?  maybe not.  the secret of giving for anyone, whether religious or not, should be to just give and not expect anything in return.

don't people themselves represent what they believe.  if you look to society to give a mass representation - it's bound to be 'majority rules.'  but, you can be different if you choose to and call whatever your holidays are - in terms of terms and 'spirit.'  i don't see anything wrong with giving.  in fact, many children need warm clothes, happiness from toys they normally can't get or afford, and some parents and singles need encouragement that someone cares about them.  i don't really care what day it is - what it is called - or what everyone says one 'should' do or say about it.  i truly think it's how we individually think and how we individually change the world. 

i was impressed that prometheus was 'fasting' before the holidays.  even if one is irreligious - one can realize the great strain of overindulgence at any time - and choose to make their own statement similar to the bible that 'contentment is great gain.'  also, sometimes when people fast - they take the money that they normally would have spent on food for themselves and give it to someone else.  to me, this is a conservation minded way of living. 

of course, one could take things so severely that the joy is kinda left out in the cold.  but, in days gone by - i don't think our parents or grandparents got huge presents.  they probably got one toy and some clothing and made due for a while.  try that on any kid today.  it's a sort of comparison of presents afterwards that makes the whole system 'break down.'  if more kids were taught about giving, too, they might experience more joy in going and giving things to other children.  btw, i include my own in this semi-selfish, but normal childish attitude.  whenever we go to get a present for someone else - my little five year old wants something exactly the same for herself.  it's almost easier to shop without her- and getting her to give something that is wrapped up - is really  hard. 

[ahinton]

This is very vague, 'some people', 'others', 'references' etc. I still don't understand what you mean.

I thought there was this thing called 'the war on christmas' in which people have criticised the use of 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'. Things like that.

I have to admit that I have never heard it called "the war on Christmas", but yes, what is happening is that some people - I cannot name them all, but members of the UK national government and of various UK local government organisations - have sought to encourage the example that you cite above, as well as the removal of other references to "Christmas" such as Christmas trees, Christmas pudding, Christmas cake and the like, using words such as "holiday", "festive", etc. I don't think that what I wrote before was especially "vague", particularly since you seemed to understand it, but I hope that I have at least made myself a little clearer now.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

But if you grow up in a secular way of thinking - it's really a matter of giving and getting equally.  isn't it?

How so? I don't understand what you mean? And what would be the difference from a religious society?

maybe not.  the secret of giving for anyone, whether religious or not, should be to just give and not expect anything in return.

Yes. But doesn't religion teach that you have to 'be good' because 'god wills it' and not just because?

Don't some religious people argue that without god there are no morals? Implying that they themselves will go and rape people if their fear of god is taken away?

Aren't christians trying to get into heaven?

An atheist knows that when she dies, she dies. How she has lived makes no difference. Why would an atheist be compassionate and generous do you think?

Honestly, if I were a person that got all my morals from the bible I would be a far worse person that I am now.

And hopefully, if I was born 2000 years into the future I would be a far better person than I am now.


People may have become more individualistic. But there is much less tolerance today for violence, war, racism and other things like that than ever before in human history.

don't people themselves represent what they believe.

Are you referring to 'survival of the fittest'? Well, I can understand that you have to think that evolution is some kind of religion if so many people 'follow it. It is not.

Saying that people that believe in 'the theory of evolution' have a 'survival of the fittest'-approach to life is like saying that people that believe in 'the theory of gravity' should jump from high buildings.

The fact that you believe that evolution or gravity work the way they work doesn't mean anything for the way you are going to live your life.

I don't see anything wrong with giving.

I never suggested such a fact.

in fact, many children need warm clothes,

Many children need clean drinking water, food and medicine. They will also never celebrate christmas.

I was impressed that prometheus was 'fasting' before the holidays.  even if one is irreligious - one can realize the great strain of overindulgence at any time - and choose to make their own statement similar to the bible that 'contentment is great gain.'  also, sometimes when people fast - they take the money that they normally would have spent on food for themselves and give it to someone else.  to me, this is a conservation minded way of living.

Isn't that what I always propose? Eventhough I am not religious and I believe there is no such a thing as the supernatural, I am quite 'spiritual'. Of course I also don't believe in 'spirit'. But I don't see why one should.
 
The reason I fast is kind of the buddhist reason. It also teaches a kind of 'contentment is great gain'-thing. It teaches that one will always suffer as long as you cannot be content.

When you fast you learn what it meant to actually really lust for food. It helps you come to terms with the minor 'suffering' in everyday life.



About 'the war on christmas'. US people somehow like terms like that. But it was not called so by the people that fought on the side of christmas. It was just that some people suddenly realised that the word 'holiday' was used a lot more than 'christmas'. The act of using the word 'holiday' is an 'act of war' on christmas according to these people. So the whole thing was that there was an outcry against the use of 'holiday(s)' and consequently in many cases it was replaced with 'christmas'.

So not the other way around. At least that is what happened in the US. It is a non-issue here. Don't know about the UK.

Anyway, I didn't realise there was also a movement that was exactly the same but in the other direction. I can't really say I understand christians. But in this issue I have a bigger problem understanding those that argue against the use of the world 'christmas'.

[ahinton]

The cost of living is not high. We in the west are generally bloody right. We don't even know what to do with it so we just waste it in an event called christmas. Hey, it's good for the economy.

In which country do you live? The cost of living in this one (UK) is a good deal higher than those of most of its immediate neighbours; the price of housing is especially high and still rising and taxes are also pretty high.

Some people "waste" money on all sorts of things - not just Christmas. Whilst I agree that there is more wastage of money at Christmas time, that's surely the prerogative of people who want to waste money; we don't have to "waste" it ourselves, just because others do (not that I'm suggesting that you think otherwise).

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

you make a good debate, prometheus  (and of course, alistair, too on different topic) about the 'heart' of people.  what moves them to be charitable.  i don't doubt you are right in many cases - but we also see cases where people commit suicide over having no beliefs and losing hope.  the bible gives us hope.  there IS a reason for giving.  because Christ first gave to us the best present of all.  salvation.  hope for an eternal life.

now, if people don't want to accept it - it doesn't mean that the gift isn't still there.  it's just unopened.

[prometheus]

Has the problem of depression and/or suicide anything to do with religion?

One is a complex mental disorder. The other is a complex social problem.


Surely we are both against people losing hope and giving up on life. But what is your point?


And didn't God commit suicide in the bible?

[ahinton]

you make a good debate, prometheus  (and of course, alistair, too on different topic) about the 'heart' of people.  what moves them to be charitable.  i don't doubt you are right in many cases - but we also see cases where people commit suicide over having no beliefs and losing hope.  the bible gives us hope.  there IS a reason for giving.  because Christ first gave to us the best present of all.  salvation.  hope for an eternal life.

No, Susan dear - the Bible give YOU (and many others, of course) hope, but not all of us.

Of course there are reasons for giving at certain times (and I don't just mean Christmas, of course).

To the best of my knowledge, Christ hasn't given me any present at all. I've never met Him. I know that I'm not as young as I used to was, but I'm not at all old enough to have been around in His day!

"Salvation"? I look for that every time I write a piece - but then I do realise that I'm not talking about the same kind of "salvation" as you are.

"Hope for an eternal life"? That seems incredibly ambitious. It's almost enough for me right now to "hope" that I can write a few more decent pieces, get through to some people with them and generally not be a pain in the arts.

People do indeed commit suicide when they have lost all hope - but can you honestly cite, with credible and irrefutable evidence, any instances where people are known specifically to have taken their own lives purely through having no beliefs? (by which I assume you to mean religious ones) and for no other reason whatsoever?

now, if people don't want to accept it - it doesn't mean that the gift isn't still there.  it's just unopened.

Or it might be stuck (or lost) in the post or held up in Customs...

Best,

Alistair

[mrdaveux]

What an irony for a so called "Christian" country such as the US...

Celebrating the birth of Jesus when he never asked for it, and doing so in a completely pagan fashion (the date picked, the tree, Santa etc. liked Promotheus already pointed out, and most things revolving around the celebration, really, have a pagan origin).

Celebrating Christmas 1 month after Thanksgiving, which really is not about giving thanks, or about any pilgrims feasting with the indians (which they ended up slaughtering after a couple of years, by the way), but is about overeating, overdrinking, and overspending.

Celebrating Thanksgiving 1 month after Halloween, which again has nothing to do with Christianity, but is more like partying with the devil and his demons...

...

[johnny-boy]

People who protest against such gobbledygook as Christmas trees verses holiday trees have too much time on their hands. Get a life – and a job!

John

[ahinton]

People who protest against such gobbledygook as Christmas trees verses holiday trees have too much time on their hands. Get a life – and a job!

Agreed - but the trouble is that, not only do the people who do it actually have jobs already, but they are also often doing this kind of stuff as part of those jobs, so the taxpayer not only has to listen to them but pay for them...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

To the best of my knowledge, Christ hasn't given me any present at all. I've never met Him. I know that I'm not as young as I used to was, but I'm not at all(......)

Is this correct English?

Confused Norwegian lad

[pianowelsh]

WELL......... what we call christmas its true is actually a pagan holiday in the middle of winter that we hijacked. We have however been hijacking it for thousands of years its not new! we have as much right to celeberate it as Christmas as pagans do not to celebrate it as christmas. However..Christmas or the birth of Jesus Christ is in the top 2/3 reasons to celebrate EVER. We dont know the exact date Christ was born - hence we nicked the festival that was the closest and celebrated it then..The reason is most likely persecution the early believers suffered..so they celebrated it at the same time as everyone was already celebrating so it didnt cause so many needless problems. So Christians have always competed so to speak with the secular side of Christmas.  Its true that fewer people really want to celebrate 'Christ'mas officailly and would rather go back to the pagan roots. Wont change things as far as the church goes though  - may make it even more difficult to avoid glitzy santaclausy type christmas cards - but hey its hard anyway! Really we as Christians could celebrate Christmas anytime. In onesense everyday should have the significance of Emmanuel (God with us) but for convenience sake its nice that we can all do it roughly together...I know some parts of the world do it in Jan.  You will find the deeper issue is not that people are trying to remove the religious meaning from Christmas...its more they are trying to shut out of their minds any reminder of anything religious atall.. They wouldnt want to celebrate easter if it didnt mean time off work! the carnal (non Christian) mind isnt interested in worshipping God. So festivals like Christmas have no significance to them except tradition and nice food - maybe peace on earth goodwill to men - if your lucky.  Does that mean we should allow the governments to curtail the possibilities of celebrating Christmas publically - NO! other religions are allowed their festival of lights, Hannukah and all the rest..and we respect them for their beliefs. the least other religions can do is have some tolerance of Christians who sish to celebrate Christmas.  Ive no idea what the christmas tree used to be called (perhaps one of the german members can tell us) because we know it was origionally a german tradition. Now whilst being a very religious country at that time im not sure that the history of the Christmas tree can be traced to Christ persay. BUT to me its a Christmas tree and will continue to be so whatever anyone else wants to call it.

[ahinton]

Is this correct English?

Confused Norwegian lad

No - it's merely a slang expression; "used to be" would have been correct English.

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

Well techincally God has given you a present in the form of Peace with him through jesus Christ. Though you put your finger on the heart of the problem. A gift is fundamentally No good if you dont receive it and unwrap it.  Its kind of ironic that the Roman festival festival of fools celebrated thoughout the empire in the early Christian period used to turn things on their head, the high would be low and the low high etc. Ironic that Jesus who is the Son of the everlasting God and who has all authority, becomes a baby and lowly carpenter, yet in his death accomplishes the salvation of men. God so has a sense of humour..to know that this is what was celebrated and to work out his plan in such a way..even foretelling it hundreds of years before.  God is wise.   The gift is offered EVRY year he never grows tired of holding it out to you. He will give it to you if you will recieve it. God dwelt among us..he isnt afar off.

[ahinton]

Well techincally God has given you a present in the form of Peace with him through jesus Christ. Though you put your finger on the heart of the problem. A gift is fundamentally No good if you dont receive it and unwrap it.  Its kind of ironic that the Roman festival festival of fools celebrated thoughout the empire in the early Christian period used to turn things on their head, the high would be low and the low high etc. Ironic that Jesus who is the Son of the everlasting God and who has all authority, becomes a baby and lowly carpenter, yet in his death accomplishes the salvation of men. God so has a sense of humour..to know that this is what was celebrated and to work out his plan in such a way..even foretelling it hundreds of years before.  God is wise.   The gift is offered EVRY year he never grows tired of holding it out to you. He will give it to you if you will recieve it. God dwelt among us..he isnt afar off.

All that might make me sound quite incredibly ungrateful but, since I would not seek to undermine your genuinely held beliefs that prompt you to write as above, it might be as well if you likewise accept my uncertainties in this regard.

As to the Roman festival of fools - well, as you know, we still recognise (even if we do not actually "celebrate" as such) All Fools' Day on 1 April; the biggest April Fool joke that I can think of is that this date happened to be the birthdate of both Busoni and Rakhmaninov - neither of whom were quite fools, I believe...

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

Non-christians are carnal people?


What kind of non-sense is that? As far as I know most sexual abuse is done by christians. Christianity is the religion obsessed by sex.


Even if you mean 'secular' what's the difference between all the theists? The only difference is that they put a different importance on the same prophets. And of course that Christians think a human was god too.


And why do you use the word 'hijacking'? What's wrong with using someone elses holiday date for your own celebrations? Or weren't you implying that?

[pianowelsh]

Its a theological term to refer to those who walk by the ways of the flesh as opposed to under the leadership of the Holys Spirit of God. Im sorry if I used terminology that you are unfamiliar with. Dont hesitate to ask if there are other ones tat cause confusion. Why do I use the word hijacking? - mon pleasure, mes amis. I see no reason why not to use this phrase it is afterall what we did. we attached ourself to the current festival of the time- in most western cases the predominat celebration of the festival is now christian at least in form if not content - therefore we 'hijacked' it  - the way I see it. You are by no means the only person to keep God at arms length I have merely made you aware of the tryth of the situation as you raise the question earlier that you didnt believe God or jesus gave you anything.  I was trying to do you the courtesy of replying to your direct question. You dont have to accept the answer - thats your own perogative.
Happy Christmas Prometheus - whatever you celebrate.

[quantum]

what? Why?

If you don't want people to post their on topic opinions, views and arguments then just don't open a topic.

Because lately this form has had a slew of people complaining of religious topics inserted in posts that were originally non religious. 

I have now started a post which I've intended to specifically include religious discussion.    Opinions of the non-religious are welcome, as it does fit in with the subject matter. However, there is a difference between stating an opinion and bashing. (The recent attacks towards Pianistimo are an example) Maybe if you don't like the topic you shouldn't post a reply.   

[phil13]

This is a religious topic. No anti-religion bashing or complaints.


Saw a discussion on TV recently.  It was about people who want to call a Christmas Tree a Holiday tree.  Must be some attempt at not offending other religions.  I find this disturbing, and so did the hosts on TV.  Society's push for political correctness is getting out of hand.  Instead of an increased acceptance of differing views and diversity, we are moving towards the sterilization of ideas with which we disagree or feel uncomfortable with. 

Universities in the part of Canada where I live accept the Jewish holidays, we don't fuss about other people deciding to cover their face for religious reasons, yet some are taken back by any mention of Christ and His connection with Christmas. 

People, it's a Christmas tree.  Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. 

Discuss....

I agree that this is disturbing, and that PC is getting way out of hand in this world, but the problems come from both sides...

Just a few days ago, the Seattle, WA airport removed its traditional Christmas tree. Why? A local rabbi waned to put a large menorah next to it, and rather than accept that there is both a Christian holiday and a Jewish holiday, the airport decided not to have anything at all, so they removed the tree.

That is an example of political correctness spawned out of refusal to be accepting and recognize diversity.

Phil

[pianowelsh]

So whats the answer. We ban religion of all kinds and are forced only to work and make money for ourselves and our families and our only common tie is to survive and pass on! That sounds vaguely familiar -  i think that system was thrown out in several countries - not before time.  On the other hand we have civil war if everyone fight for their view to be given precedence. I think what usually results is a happy compromise where people are free to express their religious beliefs non violently. To stand up for their beliefs when needed but without inciting hatred of other people groups and to live peaceably with oneanother. Does that mean you cant share your faith with someone who doesnt believe what you believe - No! I can share with you my top 10 books to read, my passion about a certain composer.  I donot have to first know that you love the same things...we can still discuss and learn from oneanother. This is the happy situation that was the UK prior to 9/11 - its now more difficult to do that because of the barriers the violent and ignorant minority have set up. But not impossible.  Peoples religion cannot be dissolved or put in a box in the attic. We all have a spiritual nature. Different people learn different ways with it. Ultimately it cant be quashed - hence people will die rather than live contrary to what they hold dear - its borne out.  Athiests are included by the way. There are marters who have on the point of death refused to give up their right to believe that God may or may not exist. 
Essentially Christmas only every has religious meaning to Christians. It may have political or social significance to other people groups but only Christians imbue it with religious meaning. Does this mean its only ' open ' for Christians...fortunately not. The church isnt an exclusive club for swipecard members only. Its open to ALL and Christ is accessible to all - that is the wonder of Christmas..He was born as a man so that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have eternal life.  That whosoever is anyone.whether youve never stepped in a church OR whether you were born in the very church building and have been in a church and a christian family all your life. God is gracious to all there is no partiality with him.  He ordained the same way of salvation for princes and paupers for pale skinned for people of colour, for old for young. Was that way 2000 years ago its the same today. 

[mad_max2024]

Was that way 2000 years ago its the same today. 

Actually, 2000 years ago it was most likely a pagan festival for the winter solstice
Still, I don't see why people can't celebrate it for whatever meaning they want, even if it is just a time to gather the family and celebrate being alive...
Who cares if it is religious or not?

[pianowelsh]

you didnt read my posts! we are in agreement. BUT that means Christians also have the freedom to celebrate their festival in the way that they want without harang from athiests agnostics and the like.

[ahinton]

you didnt read my posts! we are in agreement. BUT that means Christians also have the freedom to celebrate their festival in the way that they want without harang from athiests agnostics and the like.

Exactly correct - except that I really do not believe (if only because I've ever experienced it) that "atheists and agnostics" actually do "harangue"(sic) Christians in practice over their desire to celebrate Christmas as a Christian festival; I suppose that there might be a few who occasionally do this, just as there may be a few people who genuinely wish to remove the religious meaning from Christmas itself, but I am quite sure that, in both cases, these are very much in the minority.

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

Maybe so mr Hinton but they do exist whether or not you believe that they do. The reality of life prooves it out (thanks for the sic! I was up till 3 am the night before and typing fast!)

[imbetter]

Yes, many people are forgetting the religious values of Christmas. It's a shame really.