OH MY GOODNESS!

[pianistimo]

not me, thal.  God.  that is for Him to judge.

if He says 'do not fear, i have overcome the world...' then He died to save us from our sins.  why would He judge mankind harshly if he knows how difficult temptation is - being that he was tempted similarly.  He knows what we think and feel.  He knows when we don't do what we want to do.  st. paul wrote of this - 'what i would do - i don't...' 

[thalbergmad]

not me, thal.  God.  that is for Him to judge.

YOU have just judged, YOU have written.

Are you now saying you don't agree with God?

Answer now

[jre58591]

thal, id hate to tell you this, but you are beating a dead horse. she will not change.

[thalbergmad]

I know i am, but i must counter ignorance

[pianistimo]

i agree that God will judge the world in righteousness.  that means that evil will be eradicated.  if you don't accept Christ, you don't have a chance to have His death take the place of your own.

[thalbergmad]

i agree that God will judge the world in righteousness.  that means that evil will be eradicated.  if you don't accept Christ, you don't have a chance to have His death take the place of your own.

eh

[counterpoint]

I am gonna save that before you go back and change it

The earlier she changes it, the better it would be  

[ahinton]

I know i am, but i must counter ignorance

With what? Common sense? With the best will in the world, it just won't work. Spare your energies and go practise some Thalberg - or even listen to some CDs of piano music played by Jonathan Powell that's not by Thalberg...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The earlier she changes it, the better it would be  

Indeed, but now i have saved it and she can't erase it.

She has labelled homosexuality as evil and i want to hear what other people have to say about that.

[thalbergmad]

With what? Common sense? With the best will inthe world, it just won't work. Spare your energies and go practise some Thalberg - or even listen to some CDs of piano music played by Jonathan Powell that's not by Thalberg...

Best,

Alistair

I cannot leave this one.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

Ok i promised not to post anymore on religious topics. So I will use this thread for shameless advertising for my nonverbal examination of the subject hell and heaven. Go to the audition room and listen to my dies irae improv. That is a part of it.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,22326.msg248150.html#msg248150

[ahinton]

i agree that God will judge the world in righteousness.  that means that evil will be eradicated.  if you don't accept Christ, you don't have a chance to have His death take the place of your own.

Why on earth would I expect Christ to die so that I may live? Even were Christ alive today, what terrible things would He have ever done to me that I would expect him, for example, to take my place on death row in your delightful country of of what Sorabji once called "benighted bushmen" (although he was not referring to America when he said that) had I been convicted of some heinous crime there?

I would have asked you what you mean by "accepting Christ" were it not for the fact that I'm almost certain that your answer would be at least ten times as long as my question; as it is, therefore, I guess that your remarks make it pretty clear that I'll simply have to "content" myself with "accepting" that I'll have to be pushed off to eternal damnation, carrying all my scores with me, when it comes to mortal coil shuffling off time...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Indeed, but now i have saved it and she can't erase it.

She has labelled homosexuality as evil and i want to hear what other people have to say about that.

You do, do you? Well, let me be the first to say that she - and/or anyone else - is as entitled to brand homosexuality as "evil" (if indeed that is what she and/or anyone else actually does) as are others to take the exact opposite view; that said, I think that the former view is profoundly insensitive, unrealistic, dogmatic and - dare I say it? - unChristian...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You do, do you? Well, let me be the first to say that she - and/or anyone else - is as entitled to brand homosexuality as "evil" (if indeed that is what she and/or anyone else actually does) as are others to take the exact opposite view; that said, I think that the former view is profoundly insensitive, unrealistic, dogmatic and - dare I say it? - unChristian...

Best,

Alistair

un Christian it is.

Also, i understand from one of my Alpha courses that heaven is reserved only for those who accept Christ. All others go to hell.

That is unchristian as well.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

She has labelled homosexuality as evil and i want to hear what other people have to say about that.

 I wonder if she listens to, or plays,  music by such "sinful" composers.

[ahinton]

I wonder if she listens to, or plays,  music by such "sinful" composers.

Yes - good question! If the answer is no, that cuts out - among others - all of Tchaikovsky (in which case I hope that her kids don't get subjected to movements from "The Seasons" at ballet classes), Szymanowski, Britten, Tippett and quite a few of her compatriots (Copland, Barber, Corigliano, etc.) - though the jury may be out on Ravel, I guess...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I wonder if she listens to, or plays,  music by such "sinful" composers.

I wonder if she has listened to any evil pianists. The list is really gonna be long.

I also wonder if she has inadvertantly ever had any evil people in her house. If so, she will have to get the Bishop round to sprinkle some holy water.

Time for bed.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Yes - good question! If the answer is no, that cuts out - among others - all of Tchaikovsky (in which case I hope that her kids don't get subjected to movements from "The Seasons" at ballet classes), Szymanowski, Britten, Tippett and quite a few of her compatriots (Copland, Barber, Corigliano, etc.) - though the jury may be out on Ravel, I guess...

Best,

Alistair

As it is on Schubert, I believe. I've heard (possibly falsely, I don't know) that Ravel had a taste for flagellation, but the gender of the flagellant(s) remained elusive.. Still, I suppose this is now descending into idle gossip, so I won't comment on Leonard Bernstein.

[pianistimo]

i'm sure that i've listened to composers who had personal lives to live.  i never really thought to get into their personal lives before listening to their music.  i happen to love poulenc's music - and really didn't care to know if he was homosexual.  and, i felt badly, actually when i read that his friend died from a car accident.  i hope my memory is correct on what happened to his friend.

i understand deep friendships.  personal lives.  not everything should be available to everyone on a person's personal life.  that is why it is called 'personal.'

as i read the bible - God is the judge - andwe are the judged.  He says that He will judge us by our own words.  who could be more fair?  after all - we each sin.  what is most likely is that how we judge others will be how we are judged.

i don't recall ever insulting or degrading a gay person.  i don't recall ever telling them personally that they were evil or that they deserve hell.  if they read that homosexuality is an issue that the bible brings up - and they asked me my opinion - that would be an opinion i would say.  but, why would i judge them when i have to worry about my own walk with God? 

this thread is ASKING for opinions.  thal was asking what my understanding was (of the bible) and i do not think that is wrong to say what you believe.  i'm glad ahinton didn't think otherwise - because there is a 'tie that binds' between everyone on earth.  we all have foibles - and yet, they are still 'foibles.'  if we didn't read the bible - we wouldn't know what they are.  but, we do.

take prostitution.  it can be legalized.  but, is it right?  doesn't it promote a disunity of marriage.  say - a man is married but is tempted by a prostitute and his wife never knows.  she is then 'at risk' in the marriage.

same with gay men - i suppose.  but, don't you think people would be safer to abstain until marriage with an opposite sex spouse?  if people are worried about condoms so much - how come condoms haven't stopped the spread of aids.  the church has nothing to do with LUST.  it is people that lust for sex and don't care who they get it from.  condoms break.

sex was meant to be an intimate relationship reserved for husband and wife. (at least that's what i read in the bible) so - if a man decides that he wants to have a gay relationship - he is cutting of his chances of continuing his genetic line through reproduction.  it will end.  die.  his surname for his line will end.  i suppose that some think this is good.  but, God does not.  he even called onan on it - when he spilled his 'seed.'  that means he did not opt for children. 

now, some might mistake what i'm saying for 'fundamentalism.'  as i said earlier, i do not have habits of snooping into other people's lives and telling them what to do.  just as i hope noone would do that to me (although i have a feeling that microsoft has allowed a 'backdoor' so that the CIA and whomever wants from the government can look at any or all of my messages).  do i care to snoop on others?  no.  do i care if neighbors are gay?  no.  do i think people should be tolerant?  yes.  do i want my daughters or son to choose that way.  no.  but, i think it is a choice that people make and a personal one.

someday - i think the world will be a better place and not so confusing.  if noone says what is right and what is wrong - then everything is grey.  but, in the world we currently live in - we keep our thoughts to ourselves unless specifically asked.  politics is another thing.  we have a vote.  some vote for gay marriage.  some don't.  at least we have a peaceful means to vote on something personal. 

[pianistimo]

this is not even bringing in the health issues besides aids and sexually transmitted diseases.  i suppose noone wants to hear it - but in places where women have been brutally raped (anally, too) the colon completely ripped in some and had to be sewn back together.  now, with information - people can make wise choices about what they want to happen to their own bodies.  your bowels can come out, too - as this documentary proved to me.  and, also, a dysfunction after a while of being able to hold feces inside. 

noone tells teenagers and young adults the details of homosexuality.  it's ok to tell the pleasures but not the other side of the story.  what happens to your body.  it is like doing damage to your mind and body at the same time.

[prometheus]

I saw her champion Barber's works.

[pies]

"Skip"? You mean that you make giant strides?...

Best,

Alistair

"Skip" is only the first part of the verb in question. You must take into consideration the latter half, "over."

[pianistimo]

dear prometheus,

if i didn't champion barber's works i would prove myself dishonest.  i think he was an extremely talented composer.  he added to the history of music by pushing the boundaries further.  if i say i love everyone equally - is that so hard?  God showed us first.  so, if we are christian we don't hate anyone.  and, btw, how do i even know if barber was gay?  i don't go reading about composer's particularly for their personal lives.  i don't really care.  he's dead - isn't he?  if i knew him personally, and he asked, i would preach the gospel to him.  but, if someone doesn't ask - they've already made their mind up.

i've also spent literally hours listening to poulenc.  i think he was brilliant.  i love the open chords and the way he manipulates the harmonies (as does barber).  why should i not listen to his music simply because of disagreement with his personal choices.

that would be like someone not teaching piano lessons to gay people.  or not giving them a public education.  or taking away rights.  i am FOR rights.  after all.  we live in a free country.  but, the thing is --that God gave us the freedoms in the first place.  so, in our personal lives we should represent His love first to us - so that we can give life to others.  sharing aids is not sharing life - but sharing death. 

[wishful thinker]

if i knew him personally, and he asked, i would preach the gospel to him.  but, if someone doesn't ask - they've already made their mind up.

I may have missed something, but I don't recall anyone here asking you to preach the Gospel.    But maybe Mr Hinton can enlighten us, or Thalberg the Madder, who is keeping a record 

[ihatepop]

I just realised that there had been 57 posts on this thread on 18 December.

ihatepop

[ahinton]

I just realised that there had been 57 posts on this thread on 18 December.

May one presume this to be some kind of indicator of the sheer amount of goodness on this forum?

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

dear prometheus,

if i didn't champion barber's works i would prove myself dishonest. 

I never said you shouldn't. Someone else wondered about this.

I think the fact that you respect Barber and like Barber's music shows that you do actually recognise those people aren't evil. Don't let bronze age myth drive out the compassion from your heart. That's not what god would want if god would exist. And don't believe the people that tell you otherwise. Be compassionate.

[thalbergmad]

Pianistimo, why dont you go and burn down a few gay bars?

That way, you will be destroying evil and doing Gods work for him. Then, when Jesus returns, he will be really happy and give you a nice place in heaven.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

i don't recall ever insulting or degrading a gay person.  i don't recall ever telling them personally that they were evil or that they deserve hell.    

You don't have to tell them personally as you have just labelled the whole lot evil.

[johnny-boy]

"If anal sex is dirty then when was god so stupid to place the reproduction organs just next to it? That makes no sense at all" - Promy

Where the heck else did you want Him to place it?  Why did He place the nose so close to the mouth? He certainly didn’t expect us to shove bananas up our nose.

Regarding homosexuality as being natural; I remember in a another thread you mentioned our main purpose for existence was to procreate.

So by your definition, I would say homosexually is defying our main purpose here on Earth. Consequently homosexuality is going against nature and has no respect for the laws that govern our existence – an unnatural activity at best.

I have no problem with anyone’s sexual orientation – just keep it in the bedroom; it’s a very private and personal thing.

John

[thalbergmad]

your bowels can come out, too

It is also possilbe for your voice box to come out of your backside.

I know this, because you have proved in most of your posts that it is possible to talk out of your arse.

Merry Christmas.

Thal

[mad_max2024]

May one presume this to be some kind of indicator of the sheer amount of goodness on this forum?

Best,

Alistair

It might, if the posts weren't about burning evil gay men...
The amount of hatred and disgust some people have over homossexuality is often unnerving
It makes you wonder just what is good and what is evil...
Still, it's quite fascinating from a psychological point of view...

[ahinton]

It might, if the posts weren't about burning evil gay men...
The amount of hatred and disgust some people have over homossexuality is often unnerving
It makes you wonder just what is good and what is evil...
Still, it's quite fascinating from a psychological point of view...

Indeed...

Best,

Alistair

[cmg]

A CONUNDRUM FOR PIANISTIMO:

In my business, I work with gay men and women wrestling with issues around their sexual orientations.  NOT ONE has ever made the CHOICE to be gay.  All those critics who term homosexuality an "evil" or a "perversion" are apt to refer to being gay as a "lifestyle choice."  As one man once said to me, "why would I be stupid enough to actually CHOOSE to be the object of hate?"  In fact, all talk about the moment in childhood when they are stunned to find themselves inexplicably attracted to the same sex.  When they realize this, their first thoughts -- thanks to the cultural/ religious hatred all around them -- is to think they are insane.  When they realize they are not, then all they are left with is this enormous self-hatred that it is introjected into them by the culture and religions.

That's where I come in -- helping them to realize their orientation is simply a variation on the theme of attraction.  They are not sick.  Not perverted.  And not evil.  Just slightly different from heterosexuals.

Where did this prejudice against them arise?  Where else but "That Book Which Shall Not Be Named."  I can't prove this, certainly, but I often wondered if injunctions against homosexuality in the Old Testament came about just as the dietary prohibitions did.  You know, pork is unclean so don't eat it.  (Trichinosis obviously was unknown then.)  As to homosexuality, well, one obvious outcome of gay relationships is no pregnancies.  So, it seems that ancient peoples could only survive through sheer numbers and, given the astronomically high rate of infant mortality in those days, perhaps the ban against homosexuality was one more of those ancient laws, such as don't eat pork, to increase the multiplication of humans.  The more the humans we have in our tribe, the greater our security.
  
So, pianistimo, God clearly CREATED the variation in mammals known as homosexuality.  Latest studies on its origins hint that it arises as early as in utero.  Hardly a choice, right?  Perhaps "God" intends for approximately one tenth of the population to be gay?  That would be the logical deduction, wouldn't it?

And AIDS, by they way, is easily transmitted vaginally.  The disease initially arose in Africa in heterosexual populations -- not homosexual populations.  But it is typical of homophobes to blame gay men for this disease.  Don't blame African heterosexuals and don't blame gay men.  They are all victims.  

[thalbergmad]

Excellent post.

Regretfully, her response is probably going to have be sent to Bletchley Park for decoding.

Thal

[cmg]

Thanks, Thal.  Couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one, either.

[prometheus]

Where the heck else did you want Him to place it? 

Surely if we were created by a all-powerfull god he could have placed it anywhere. He could also have placed the anus more towards the back. So imagine the reproduction organs on the front and the anus in the back.

And he could also have given us three 'mouths'. One to talk with, one to breathe through and one to eat&drink through.

Regarding homosexuality as being natural; I remember in a another thread you mentioned our main purpose for existence was to procreate.

It's not the purpose. It is the reason we exist. And a shallow darwinian purpose.

So by your definition, I would say homosexually is defying our main purpose here on Earth. Consequently homosexuality is going against nature and has no respect for the laws that govern our existence – an unnatural activity at best.

Homosexuality has been observed in more than 1500 different species. Surely it is natural. Otherwise, your definition of 'natural' is flawed.

I have no problem with anyone’s sexual orientation – just keep it in the bedroom; it’s a very private and personal thing.

Well, yes. But do you demand all people to keep their sexual preferences totally private? Like, hair colour? If you don't then why?

It's because of the primitive idea of the bronze age people that wrote the bible. Yes. Even I have to be aware of my conditioning against homosexuality. But it is irrational.

There have been some Darwinian answers to the existence of homosexuality. Take a look at them.

[ahinton]

Excellent post.

Regretfully, her response is probably going to have be sent to Bletchley Park for decoding.

Thal

Or maybe GCHQ in Cheltenham. By the way, speaking of GCHQ, you may recall that, some years ago, the UK government sanctioned the outlawing of any and all manifestations of trade unionism at GCHQ, on grounds of national security. This (albeit indirectly and doubtless also unintentionally) meant that one GCHQ employee who happened also to be a musician was ordered to cancel his membership of the UK Musicians' Union or be sacked from his position. I believe that he chose the latter option and was hounded for it on civvy street thereafter. If this event proves anything at all, it is that musicians are part of the real "axis of evil" whether they are to be found in US, UK, Iran or anywhere else. Let us rejoice in that status - especially since it is so absurdly contrived as to be beyond all credibility.

Best,

Alistair

[johnny-boy]

"Well, yes. But do you demand all people to keep their sexual preferences totally private? Like, hair colour? If you don't then why?" - Promy

Demand? Not really, more of a plea not to hear the gruesome detals.

John

[prometheus]

Have you ever heard gruesome details about gay sex? I have not.

Why can someone admit to like woman with dark hair but why can't someone openly state she or he prefers people of the same sex?

[ihatepop]

May one presume this to be some kind of indicator of the sheer amount of goodness on this forum?

Best,

Alistair

Nope. Its an indicator that people are spending too much time on this thread.

ihatepop

P.S.If you realise, its always the same people who are posting in this thread on the 18th.

[asyncopated]

In my business, I work with gay men and women wrestling with issues around their sexual orientations.

Now I'm curious as to what you do.  You own a gay strip bar?

Merry Christmas ermm... Merry whateveritis

[pianistimo]

he's a psychoanalyst.  he probably knows more about what homosexuality is about because of dealing with so many people who have 'issues.'

i'd like to say that i am neither a doctor or epidemiologist, so i just look at facts that are given randomly on the internet.  this does not make always for good judgements - but i combine what i read with the bible - and then, i think it does. 

i do not believe that homosexuality is anything but a personal choice.  i realize that people are born into this world (now more than ever ) who have hormonal imbalances and 'feel' like the opposite sex.  i am not arguing that.  but, whatever organs you are given - i believe that you should not fight.  for instance - if a man is born with a man's genitalia and also breasts - what is to stop him from getting breast reduction.  but, if he changes his sexual anatomy to female down below - for what purpose.  he will still have XY chromosomes.  i believe your chromosomes were given you by God.

now, regarding the sexual orientation - what on earth is a child (early in formative periods) doing being attracted to any sex at all?  i think sometimes parents are to blame in allowing to much tv and internet access (and i realize how hard it is sometimes).  if we did not have societal pressures - children would not even be aware of this type of sexual practice.

ok.  call me old fashioned - whatever - but the basic thing to me is that there have always been plagues.  people say - oh, we just discovered aids in the 1970's.  well, that may be the case with the type we have today - but did you know that tuberculosis has been around for millenia.  that means that people's immune systems were compromised back then, too.  the bacterial agent for TB (mycobacterium tuberculosis) is believed to have existed in a spinal column of an egyptian mummy around 3700 BC and more evidence from a body uncovered from 1000BC.  around 460 BC hippocrates identified TB as a widespread disease causing high mortality.  the name tuberculosis was adopted because of the tubercules found in bodies of fatal cases.

i believe plagues are what happens when people choose other laws than God's.  this, by others, is interpreted to mean - you are hateful.  i didn't cause these plagues.  God did.  is God hateful? no.  He is promoting his own laws and cursing immorality.  STD's don't come from nowhere.  anal sex among heterosexuals and homosexuals is a large part of the transmission of aids.  much larger than the regular sex between man/woman.  i mean if someone gets infected and then transmits it the other way - i understand.  but, it is thought that actually disfunctional sexual practices brought it into human existence from animals.  now who would think to have sex with animals.  hmmm.  that is mentioned as a no-no in the bible.  i believe every Word of God is true.  if you observe his law - you will be blessed.  if you don't - you will be cursed.

all through history there have been times where huge amounts of the population die from pandemic.  there is now a resurgence of TB - due to many causes - and exacerbated by aids.  there are many STD's going around too.  ok.  tb can be spread by simply coughing or sneezing by an infected person - and then someone breathing in the bacilli.  with STD's all you need is a person performing oral sex who has herpes in their mouth - to get herpes.  once you have herpes - then it is a higher chance that you will be open to the aids virus.  this is from reading a 'center for disease' article.  also, unprotected sex.

but, unprotected sex isn't the answer totally- although it may help.  in the khmer rouge regime - thousands /millions were exposed to bad health practices and also forced prostitution.  there are 50,000 aids orphans now in cambodia.  i do not believe they came from nowhere.  i believe that it is living proof today that casual sex (some of whom may be infected) with many people produces aids.  condoms break. 

anal sex is not only dirty - but it is a breeding ground.  if you want a disease- make the environment friendly to bacterium.  that's all i have to say.

[ahinton]

i'd like to say that i am neither a doctor or epidemiologist, so i just look at facts that are given randomly on the internet.  this does not make always for good judgements - but i combine what i read with the bible - and then, i think it does.

Here we go again on that same old (not-so-)-merry-go-round; you have the sense to realise that you can't rely on information that you find on the internet, but then you purport to fill in the blanks with biblical material and all is apparently always well; this just makes no sense, especially since no parts of the Bible were written to complement - or to make good the shortcomings of - the internet...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

that's all i have to say.

Yes Virginnia, there is a Santa Claus 

Mr Hinton, should not you be packing? 

[counterpoint]

I think, this woman needs help   

[prometheus]

...he will still have XY chromosomes.  i believe your chromosomes were given you by God.

But homones are given by satan?

Even with an XY chromosome you will grow up to be female if it wasn't for hormones. It is just that the Y chromosome influences the production of those hormones. The genes chromosomes themselves don't do anything. That's why there are people with a different gender than their chromosomes dictate. And I am not talking about people with ambiguous sexuality. There are many different disorders because there are many things that can, and do go, wrong.

One is called Swyer syndrome.

Here a baby is genetically supposed to be male; XY. But what happens is that there is a genetic defict so testes fail to form. So this person will never have any testosteron, something even all females have. Testosteron is neither produced by the testes nur by the ovaries. She has neither. So without testes no male sexual organs will develop. She will anatomically be a perfect female except for the lack of ovaries.

So they will lack all sex hormones, their genotype is male, phenotype is female and they will never enter puberty.

Another similar disorder is called Androgen insensitivity syndrome.

There we also have an XY phenotype. They start to develop testes normally like any male since they do not have the mutation described above. But because of another mutation in 'god's given chromosomes' the receptors of androgen style hormones don't work. IOW the testerone and similar hormones may as well not be there. They will have no effect. So still female sexual organs form. So again we have a anatomical female, psychological female without ovaries. This time there are underdeveloped testes instead of neutral gonads.

There are also syndromes where god gives his babies XO, XXX, XXY, XYY , XO/XY, and many others.

Ther are also XX males.


Praise the baby Jesus!


As for diseases being punishments from god, I won't even go there. It's not only cruel. It is also an concept that doesn't need refutatation. The reason Pianistimo has this idea is not because of the facts but because she can't reconcile her faith in an all powerful and just god with the suffering in this imperfect world created by what she calls 'random chance'.


Yes, and I do think Pianistimo needs mental counseling based on the impression we get from her through the internet. She may have schizophrenia. But then again, most fundamentalist christians appear to have schizophrenia.

[ahinton]

Mr Hinton, should not you be packing? 

No, thanks; I did that yesterday!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I think, this woman needs help   

Needing something and accepting it are by no means necessarily the same thing...

Best,

Alistair

[jpianoflorida]

Yes, and I do think Pianistimo needs mental counseling based on the impression we get from her through the internet. She may have schizophrenia. But then again, most fundamentalist christians appear to have schizophrenia.

I'm very impressed that you know SO many fundamentalist Christians that you have the right to diagnos their so called "problem".   I still can't figure out why us Christians on this forum never name call you guys, or say your "mental" because you don't believe what we believe,but that is all you seem to want to do to us.    We don't put you down all the time, so it's funny that the only thing you guys can seem to do is call us names and use the word "mental" in there!   Maybe we scare you because you are starting to think we may be right on some issues.  Maybe you are jealous because we have the "faith" that you don't.    Of course now you will reply to this and say I'm "mental" , "crazy" or whatever word you can come up with.   I expect that! But there has to be SOME REASON you guys seem to want to keep discussing this with us, knowing we are not going to change our views.  Why is it you want to keep discussing things that we will never agree on, unless maybe part of you wants to believe?