need help with arpeggio fingerings

[jamie0168]

I know all the root position ones, but I don't know the fingerings for the 1st and 2nd inversions. Can anyone tell me or lead me to a website where they'll tell me?
Thanks

[lichristine]

do you get graded on formality?
Because I usually do what feels natural, so that they're easier to learn and don't sound stiff and overly practiced.

[pianistimo]

in 'mastering the scales and arpeggios' by james francis cooke - it says:

#1 when the distance between the two outer notes of the arpeggio is a fourth, use the third finger.
#2 when the distance between the two outer notes of the arpeggio is a third, use the fourth finger. 

so - for root chord - i have rh 1235
first inversion - 1245 (outer two are 3rd apart)
second inversion 1235

something like that - for most.  i would highly suggest this book - because they are all written out and have little exercises at the beginning that are helpful to learn to play arpeggios well.  the best secret i've found is to not hold on to the beginning note and try to connect everything.  let go and let speed be the connector.  it's not like a melody.  it's a technique.  a sort of dusting of the keyboard in some senses.  i guess it depends on how many notes of an arpeggio you are leading up to.  for beginners - probably three notes at a time is enough!  you can even try different fingers on each of the three note chords and just practice being random.  say - take CEG and play 135 124 135 over and over and then on the first inversion EGC  125 124 125  ...  i just made that up, btw.  anwyas, sometimes in actual pieces you have an unusual fingering in an arpeggio because it is leading to a note or group of notes in a certain way.  being flexible is good.

[ramseytheii]

I think that is actually good information (!), and would only like to add, that as practice you can also play arpeggios in inversions with the fingering that they would have as if you played them in root position.  Another method is to play all arpeggios, no matter in what key, with the same fingering.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

i would agree, if you are just being random and want to 'stretch' or something.  but for a professional performance - wouldn't you want the most comfortable feeling one?  perhaps one that allows you to gain momentum and speed.  there are speed fingerings - and fingerings that let you practice for fun -doing different stretches, etc.

from a performance perspective - i'd say that the rules above are kinda helpful.  for one thing - they allow the top of the hand to be flat.  now, some disagree and say that curved fingers are best for everything - especially scales and arpeggios.  i used to believe this, too.  but, my most recent teacher has taught me several things.

one is to use the most relaxed fingering and hand position you can at all times.  and, #2 if you don't have a 'perfect' fingering for a passage - work out a perfect movement of your hands.  i used to connect everything.  this is good to a point -but with arpeggios - it is a totally different thing you are working.  you can use speed (sideways movement) and a slight eliptical movement as you work up and down arpeggios.  it is hardly noticable as you get more proficient - but for young beginners - quite obvious.

for a beginner to FEEL the relaxation - i'd take three notes CEG and start mid-point with the hand (flat hand basicallY) and as the note of C is pressed - the hand follows downwards- then as you get to E - you are kinda starting upwards with wrist and finally by G - you completely let your hand come up as your wrist is already up and the fingers are 'pulled off' as a marionette would pick your hand up from the wrist and let the fingers follow.

now, as you get faster and more proficient - there's not so much marionette stuff.  it's closer to the keys - and sort of sideways 'dusting' i call it.  some of has to do with the incrementally added speed.  speed changes movement.  dramatically.  and - after a while you have to adjust again (whole paradigms).  you may not even move exactly as you did when practicing slowly.  you might have to start thinking about 'ghosting' above the keys.  what your hands do above the keys - how they move.  how they get from the low low note to the high note and what positions they follow in the air.  try to always keep a sort of center of balance in your hand - and not allowing it to dramatically tip from side to side.  sort of like you have a little 'weight' in the center of the top of your hand.  it forces your hand to be level most of the time.

[ramseytheii]

i would agree, if you are just being random and want to 'stretch' or something.  but for a professional performance - wouldn't you want the most comfortable feeling one?  perhaps one that allows you to gain momentum and speed.  there are speed fingerings - and fingerings that let you practice for fun -doing different stretches, etc.

Since the fingerings I suggested for inversions come from the root position of the arpeggios themselves, there is nothing random about it, and no particular stretching going on.  For the idea of using the same fingering for each arpeggio, it is not so much about stretching as attaining a uniform feeling for all the areas of the piano.   There are many instances in the literature in which we have to start a passage with a thumb on a black key for instance.  All configurations of keys have to feel just as comfortable as all others.

Fingering is one of the least important considerations in piano-playing.  Speed can be achieved at practically any fingering, even for passages that were designed for a specific fingering.

for a beginner to FEEL the relaxation - i'd take three notes CEG and start mid-point with the hand (flat hand basicallY) and as the note of C is pressed - the hand follows downwards- then as you get to E - you are kinda starting upwards with wrist and finally by G - you completely let your hand come up as your wrist is already up and the fingers are 'pulled off' as a marionette would pick your hand up from the wrist and let the fingers follow.

I personally believe that this kind of step-by-step depiction of playing three simple notes is damaging to the mind and to the keyboardist.  This may be a description of what happens when one plays these notes in this "marionette" manner, but it should not be followed as a prescription for what to do.  It reminds me of a previous post on Chopin etude op. 10 no.1, where the poster wrote how high the wrist should be for each individual note.  It is simply enough to drive a person insane.

Rather the ability to look at a figuration from any angle has to be cultivated.  I have encountered young students, for whom playing a triad on C is physically uncomfortable.  Once they see it in its component parts - 1/3, 3/5, 1/5 - the difficulty is gone.  This simple exercise which has alleviated the frustration of countless beginner students, is essentially the process by which we solve the most complex problems of the most difficult scores. 

What we need to know physically is basically this: what it feels to be able to play something (anything) comfortably (all problems that need to be solved after this will rely on this feeling); the different modes of touch to employ (including what I call "petting the cat," that is the stroking, not striking, of the keys, which can be employed in so many different ways); and the basic component movements of the body (for instance, the elbows can move clockwise or counter-clockwise).  Anything else about the phyiscal aspect of playing the piano resides completely in the brain.

now, as you get faster and more proficient - there's not so much marionette stuff.  it's closer to the keys - and sort of sideways 'dusting' i call it.  some of has to do with the incrementally added speed.  speed changes movement.  dramatically.  and - after a while you have to adjust again (whole paradigms).  you may not even move exactly as you did when practicing slowly. 

Speed only changes movement if you practice playing fast and playing slow in different ways.  In a passage that is fast, and also difficult, it is not advisable to practice it slowly in a different way from the way you will eventually perform it.  Rather, one should practice it in slow-motion, and the sadly absent Bernhard has written the most eloquently on this subject.

If you find yourself having to adjust when playing fast, that means you are practicing a whole new set of motions; and as far as practicing to achieve physical results, your slow practice has been useless!

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

it cannot be comfortable to play a stretch of four notes with the third and fifth finger.  for me, it would be much better to play with the third, as the cooke book says.

but, to each his/her own.  i think hand size comes into play.  you may have large hands.  i have small hands.  so for me, the best fingering is one that is prethought and sometimes pre thinking 'ghosting' really helps, too.  if you don't plan what you are going to do - you are apt to do anything that comes to mind.  it might turn into a habit - and there might be a better way.

[ramseytheii]

it cannot be comfortable to play a stretch of four notes with the third and fifth finger.  for me, it would be much better to play with the third, as the cooke book says.

There must be a mistake somewhere in here, do you mean four notes with the fourth and fifth fingers?  And by a stretch of four notes, do you mean the interval of a fourth?  I can't think of a place where that interval comes up, using the 4th and 5th fingers, in normal, diatonic arpeggios.

Walter Ramsey

[jamie0168]

This isn't xactly the info. I was wanting. There are rules for root position arps: if the interval between two notes in the LH is a minor 3rd, you use 5-4. If it's major, you use 5-3. In B major, you start LH on 4.
Do I really play all inversions as if I were playing root and just skipping the first note(s)? Or are there any special arps where I still start on 1 in RH and 5 in LH? There has got to be some list of rules written somewhere. I remember my teachers always telling me when teaching me scales or root position arps, 'This is how it's played...end of story.'

[goose]

Hi Jamie,

I had the same questions as you. While there's a lot of stuff around about fingering scales, I had problems finding useful suggestions for fingering arpeggios. So I devised my own with a couple of rules of logic. It turned out that only a few of my options were different from my standard arpeggio book (which didn't explain the logic behind the fingerings).

Anyway, you can see the post here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,17753.msg189681.html#msg189681

And there's an attachment with a PDF explaining it all.

As before, if anyone finds holes in my argument, fire away. That's why I posted it in the first place.

Best,
Goose

[pianistimo]

you know something - i am tending to agree more and more with ramseytheii - rebel that he is.  with certain composers like debussy and ravel, etc.  you can't really say 'you must do it this way.'  there is so much room for just doing what your fingers find 'natural.' 

now, with bach and beethoven - etc.  it seems like this is more 'pre-figured.'  i mean - most people use approximately the same fingers.  but, even with this - there is 'fudge' room.  i mean - if you have a huge hand - you're not stuck with any one particular fingering.

the good thing about small hands is that you work your fingering out so well - that no matter what - you're concerned about connections, etc.  for the large hand - it's just a matter of course.

[goose]

I agree that the context often dictates whether you use the 3rd or 4th finger in an arpeggio fragment. For example, if the note following note the arpeggio fragment is adjacent and lower, using the 4th finger allows you to follow with the 3rd on the next note. (I mention something like this on the PDF attachment from the link.)

Jamie, I'd be interested to know if the fingerings work for you.

Goose

[pianistimo]

what an interesting idea.  it certainly makes your hand feel relaxed at all times.