What makes a good teacher???

[garetanne]

I ask this, because I'm not sure if what I'm experiencing is a "normal" progression. 

Little background - started playing as an adult last February.  Have worked through the first and half of the second in the Alfred Adult series.  Fur Elise was recently my first "real" piece.  Working now on Bach's two part interventions. 

Lately I feel like I go and play whatever piece I'm working on, and get some feed back on how it sounds, but that is about it.  I'm basically learning from my mistakes. 

Recently there was a duet piece that I just couldn't get the timing on and after three weeks this piece was abandoned.

Scales were only given to me when I complained that although I hear or read that something is in F major, I have no concept of what that means. 

Is this what lessons are all about?  I feel like there should be some outline, or plan with goals that I should be meeting. 

[maestoso]

i feel exactly the same way. i go to my lesson and keep working on the same piece. it gets frustrating, but it is valuable to have a guide, you know someone with more knowledge and input. honestly as an adult you have to ask yourself what your goals are and outline your plan. you dictate what you should be learning you are employing the services not the other way around. i like the piece i'm working on but i play whatever i want and read into what the lesson really is. hope this helps.

[nsvppp]

Hi Garetanne,

Is this what lessons are all about? I feel like there should be some outline, or plan with goals that I should be meeting.

I sympathise with you and experienced about the same when I started playing (2,5 years ago). My basic assumption was that there would be a plan how to learn the piano, with defined stages, which could be "finalized". After finalizing such a stage I would be able to continue to the next stage.

Well

(some time elapsed since I typed the "well", because I had to sigh and breath deep and put myself together again)

there seems to be no plan. At least no plan that can be openly communicated. Of course my teacher has a private plan. That plan is to improve my piano playing as well as possible. Every lesson seems to be ad hoc. But when I take a better look at it, the program of the lesson always depends on the difficulties I have at that moment. Also the works my teacher chooses for me depend on the items he thinks are most important for me to learn the next couple of weeks.

Perhaps the difference between your lessons and mine is, that there is not a method (book) we follow. Really everything is ad hoc. I found that very difficult in the beginning. Only after 2 years I decided that it was time to start trusting my teacher. And that helps. I feel more relaxed and confident because of that, so the lessons are opener as well.

About scales: In 2,5 years 30 minutes total time was spent on scales. I practice scales when I start playing in a new key, so I get a feeling for that key. Nothing more.

About your für Elise, 2 years ago I was going to start with it, on my teachers' advice. But stopped very soon, because I didn't want to put too much time in it at that moment. I knew the piece as a listener to other beginning pianists. So I thought für Elise was not so very interesting and indeed a bit boring. Three weeks ago I picked it up and indeed, it is not so difficult as it was 2 years ago. And I found out why so many people love to play this. It is a work for pianists.

The method my teacher uses thus seems to be "solve the most important problem first" and it works for me. Meanwhile the sound I can make is improving bit by bit, so my overall playing improves, while working on all kind of technical problems. By the way, one thing I have to add, I don't play any etudes, only "real" music. I play a lot of Scarlatti sonatas and of course you can argue that there are obvious etude-like elements in it, but clearly it is real music.

Please continue your lessons and give a bit of trust to your teacher.

nsvppp

[amanfang]

How much experience does this teacher have wih adults?  Sometimes teachers are fantastic with a certain type of student (children vs. adults, or beginners vs. intermediate or advanced, traditional vs. jazz, etc.) but not so great in other areas. 

With my adult students, I take into consideration their current playing level and what their goals are.  I also try to consider what motivates them and what does not.  For example, I have a 40 year old man or so who plays elementary level.  When he started with me, he told me his goal was to play so he could sing along and his family could sing, and so that he can help his kids with their piano lessons.  It seems like mostly he wants to play songs he knows and can sing to.  Classical does not interest him.  I have been working primarily with chords, both functionally and chord symbols (lead sheets) and working with imrpovisation.  Closer to the beginning I tried to get him to play scales and cadence chords as I thought this would help his theoretical understanding.  He was not interested and did not see the benefit.  Only in the last couple weeks (a year and a half later) did he ask questions about keys, and then suddenly he saw the benefit of playing scales.  Often with adults, it can be a guessing game and as we try to figure out the goals of each other.  I am much more willing to bend my agenda of what I think the student should learn with adults than with children, as motivation is a much bigger deal with adults, and they are paying me. 
Since adults are so much more goal-oriented and won't practice when they don't understand the point of something and get much more easily frustrated, I would recommend that you sit down with your teacher and tell him/her your specific goals, and see if you can't outline a plan together to accomplish those goals.  Or if the teacher really just isn't that experienced with adults, I would ask him/her to recommend someone to you, or ask the local music shop who they know are good teachers for adult students. 

[garetanne]

K... so trust and patience are what is needed I guess.

I AM learning, as evidenced by improvement and the leval of difficulty in the pieces I'm being given to work on.

Goals - hmmm that's a hard one, and one I'm still sorting out for myself at this point.

I guess in addition to trust and patience, a bit more time must be allowed for this process to develop.  A friend's dad told me at the beginning to NOT GET FRUSTRATED, and the deeper I get into this process the more I'm trying to heed his advice.

It's reassuring to hear that this is the way it is.  I guess like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. 

Thanks for your answers!

[jpianoflorida]

i teach fulltime and many adults.  The alfred method is what i have used for over 10 years, it's a great method but it does need teacher input and supplemental music.   What is your goal with piano? have you talked to your teacher about your goals?   DO you have the kind of teacher you can talk to about anything without being concerned the teacher will say "do it my way or else".   Sounds like a little talk with your teacher to discuss "where you are going" would help.    Hang in there.

[canardroti]

A good teacher is a Mentor.
He/she should care for his students and their progress in a way that if a student fail at something, the teacher should partially feel responsible as well ( given that the student is motivated and wants to learn).
I've had teachers who would come , listen to me play and just point out what I did wrong and what i did good, but mostly what I did wrong and tell me to fix it for next week without even telling me how to fix it.
If I don't know the hand motions, If I have no idea how to fix something, I'd probably end up wasting countless hours.
A good teacher has to be really observant on everything, your posture ( never underestimate that) , and your sound. My  former teacher would sit across the room and just listen to my sound.
To resume my opinion, I believe a good teacher should care for his students very much, make sure he/she progresses , find the best way for his/ her students to learn. A good teacher has to support and encourage his students.Most of all, make sure the students enjoy and appreciate learning music.

[m1469]

hee hee... this is funny to me because just recently (in the last couple of hours) I had the urge to start a topic stating what I feel is the most important aspect of teaching... LOL.  But, then I realized I was just being bossy  . 

Anyway, you know, it really depends, sorry to say.  I believe that what makes a good teacher has nothing to do, directly, with the elements being learned.  I believe it has everything to do with what the teacher sees within the individual (and actually,  what the student sees and can bring out within the teacher also), and what can be brought out of that (those) individual(s) throughout the learning process.  I believe this is the case no matter what is being taught, no matter who is being taught, no matter where, no matter when... and etc times infinity... hee hee.

I have experienced teachers with whom I felt had little or no insight into my potential and consequently, I felt like my learning was limited with them.   But, I have also experienced teachers (in many forms) whom have some insight into life and who I am that I can really connect with.  With these individuals, I feel I could spend a lifetime with them and constantly learn from their knowledge and from their personal example in life.

With the latter kind of teacher, I *always* walk away feeling hungry for more... a passion and inspiration for the art and for life, and a desire to get better at everything I do.  But, that's also what I want to find in these experiences, so I have concluded that what makes a good teacher has much to do with what the student is looking for in a teacher.

Thee End.


m1469

[lenkaolenka]

Good music teacher – is the teacher, who is capable of teaching you to read and play music effectively with no struggles and stress.

[lostinidlewonder]

A good teacher motivates you and also puts the pressure on you. You know you have a good teacher if they require results from you and you can feel their expectation pressure reach over to you even when you sit down by yoruself and practice the piano.

A good teacher doesn't take you by the hand and lead you through a custom made procedure of stages and phases to make you into a good pianist. They teach you how to listen to yourself while you play and how to make direct decisions about your own two hands and what it feels to be comfortable while playing.

Most importantly they push you to contintually learn new music and succeed, not wasting 3 weeks on something then totally abandoning it, leaving it aside for a little while yes, but not totally throwing it out the door, that is wasting both of your time and your money.

[jakev2.0]

For me, a great piano teacher has to be an excellent pianist and an excellent musician.  If I don't respect their abilities, I will question their advice. They have to have an extensive knowledge of the repertoire, and be able to give interesting suggestions for a student's repertoire. They have to be very critical of the student (if the student is like me and really wants to learn the piano), and be able to give creative and effective advice.

Simple but lofty expectations.

[danny elfboy]

In those that believe they have a "bad teacher" I recognize a common point:
the frustration of not making sense of what they're doing

Feeling like robots who must mindlessly repeat the same notes until they are, for some kind of miracles and exhaustation, learned ... while not feeling any logical path in what they're learning and are not understand the music ...

I think this also is linked to the common fault of "not teaching the piano harmonically"

Read this thread and tell me what you think:
On the benefits of thinking harmonically about the piano

BTW: this problems is common to all kind of teaching. In most schools from elementary to university so many teachers just keep saying "study this, study that, learn that" and are unable to explain the pupils what's the logical path, the direction of the work is
When information doesn't make any sense, when they're not IN A LOGICAL CONTEXT it's very hard if not impossible to learn them be it music, geography, history, mathematics, language ...

[jpianoflorida]

Good music teacher – is the teacher, who is capable of teaching you to read and play music effectively with no struggles and stress.

it is not accurate to say you can learn anything without struggles or stress!   All learning may lead to struggles and stress!   Maybe it will , maybe it won't.      Anything you learn new can possibly cause some stress. You have to work at it.

[brahms4me]

Life needs and is full of stress and struggles.  That is how character, patience, compassion, understanding, comittment and discipline are developed.  Stress and struggles motivate, but the teacher and/or parent has to be sensitive as to how much to put on a student.  Some can handle a great deal, others cannot. 

Lack of stress = lifelessness.

[pianistimo]

i'm agreed with most everyone.  there has to be a balance.  too much stress, and the student is stressed out.  maybe that comes from having too much information given at once.  over the years - i learned to moderate the amount of information to the age of the student and their attention span.  you can see when the lesson is over.  the student can show you their compositions - or whatever for the last five minutes - because they might not truly 'hear' anything after that anyways.  and, yet there are other students who have tremendous concentration abilties and you have to tell yourself  - ok. stop.  they're concentrating still - but leave something alone for next week.  i used to go over sometimes by 15 minutes - but the younger students, i found - really wanted to save that 15 minutes for the following week.  whereas adults - they are elated to get more for the money.

also, i'm so in agreement with lostinidlewonder about all he says.  especially about dropping a piece.  it teaches the student not to trust the teacher to pick pieces.  that the piece was simply too hard.  now, occasionally a teacher makes a mistake - and can admit it openly -- 'i think this piece is just slightly too hard - but, we'll come back to it later.'  most of the time - the student should be given music that is just the right level so this doesn't happen.

also, danny elfboy is so right about teachers teaching things in order.  especially the foundations of music:  harmony, rhythm, melody, technique, vocabulary, theory etc. etc.  - they should all be TOGETHER and no 'missing links.'  every level should logically reach the next level.  at the end of the year - you can give tests similar to the MTNA tests - where they KNOW for themselves that they understand all the material required for that level. 

i like to give them a sort of syllabus to keep for the year and check off things as we go.  they know what is expected (as teachers do at school) and can work ahead or on schedule.  the foundation is really learning all the basic keys and the key signatures and how it feels and sounds to play I IV V chords.  i personally feel that with very young students - this is really great to do with tetrachord fashion.  they can feel relaxed to play a scale - an exercise - a song - a cadence - chords (with left I, right IV, right V, left I) where they are integrating the same keys that they learn scales and exercises as the songs they play. 

[jpianoflorida]

Life needs and is full of stress and struggles.  That is how character, patience, compassion, understanding, comittment and discipline are developed.  Stress and struggles motivate, but the teacher and/or parent has to be sensitive as to how much to put on a student.  Some can handle a great deal, others cannot. 

Lack of stress = lifelessness.

Yes.  Very true post brahms!

[danny elfboy]

Another good way to PUT INFORMATION INTO CONTEXT (which I think is vital for everyone in order to actually learn those information) is to make the students aware of the "outline" of the learning path

Instead of just throwing each day new information at the student which have no logical sense to him/her and just the teacher can understand approaching the student in this way
"Okay, this year we're going to learn this, this and that. At the end you'll be able to do this, this and that. And therefore we will need this, this and that information that I will give you day by day"

It's the same difference of having a book of recipes that tells you for the first 80 pages "take an egg, take the flour, take the grounded meat, buy this sauce, get the peas" and just at the end starts telling you how to use these ingredients (most of which will have spoiled in the meantime)
or having a book of recipes that tells you "We're going to make parmigiana HENCE we will need eggplants, parmesan, mozzarella, tomato sauce ..."
Having the "ingredient in context by having the GOAL and STEPS already outlined from the beginning make easier to gather them, to store them, to understand what's better to buy and in which amonut

One could argue that it's the same thing to ask someone to do something without explaining the goal and what it is for and letting him/her know it later or telling him/her the goal hence what is needed for it but I don't agree
Even going in the wood looking for thin branches is easier and better planned when you know what they will be used for

[pianoannie]

It's interesting, as a teacher, to read the various posts here, expressing some degree of frustration with your piano teachers and not understanding where you're headed in lessons.

Sometimes, once students know the notes, the rhythms, the piano keys, the basic terms and symbols, it's easy for them to wonder what else is there for my teacher to teach me?  Or as someone above said, they feel like the teacher just basically corrects his mistakes.

Here are some things I think every good teacher should be doing with students who can already read and play at intermediate or above level:

Present technical skills in a planned sequence,  helping the student to play without tension, pain, or hand injury, so as to prepare the student for those same technical issues in pieces in the near future.

Help students completely understand key signatures, chords of every key, inversions, cadences, form, harmonic analysis, etc, so that the student can "see" what the composer was working with.

Understand the idea of tension and release within a piece, to create high points within the phrases, to keep a forward motion building to the climax of a piece--helping the student know how to use tempo, dynamics, rubato, etc to achieve these high points.

To understand the various time periods of music, so that the student will know what was typical for that time, in terms of ornamentation, pedal, articulation, etc.

To care about the student's preferences, and find music to accomodate those preferences, while opening his mind to other styles as well.

To know what pieces the student is ready for, to give him useful practice strategies, to have an arsenal of ideas for potential trouble spots, and to ultimately help the student play not only "correctly" but with beauty and emotion.

To help the student to not only read music, but also to play by ear, to improvise, transpose, compose, and other activities that help him *understand* music well.

There are many other things I try to do for my students, but these are some of the really important ones.

If your teacher is only correcting mistakes, perhaps it is time for a talk about your goals and where you are headed, as others have suggested.
pianoannie

[pianistimo]

this is helpful to put on paper.  agreed so much!  because then the student is learning to also 'teach themselves.'  they can go home and have a sort of direction of where to go with the information.  if it's too hodgepodge - then as danny_elfboy says - they  won't really understand what to do with it all.

communication is really a funny thing.  if you don't ask at least two or three times during the lessons about what the student thinks you are saying - you might have them go home thinking one thing - when you meant another.  so - if you ask for them to put concepts into their own words, you can double check if you are on the same 'wave length.' 

also, i've found with tutoring that once they see a sort of cycle - they know how to expand on this cycle (or you help them see a bigger circle) and so they keep rotating year by year and yet sticking to a plan - but it's more detailed every year.  i think it's a good idea to stick by birthday's or start of lesson dates - and make this an important date for them to remember their 'graduations' by.

[counterpoint]

I don't think, that the influence of the teacher on the progress of the student is this big.

Music is made out of simple ingredients.
Playing movements are very simple too.
The teacher can help a little in finding proper pieces for the actual capabilities of the student.
The teacher can point out some things like fingering, pedaling, articulation.
Then some students will work on their pieces with great energy and will make great progress, others will not be as watchful and will not work as much, so they will make only slow and little progress.

You cannot force music into people. As a teacher, you can only offer, what you know about music and about piano playing.

If a student makes great progress and becomes a real musician and pianist, it is his  achievement, not that of the teacher.

[pianoannie]

I don't think, that the influence of the teacher on the progress of the student is this big.


If a student makes great progress and becomes a real musician and pianist, it is his  achievement, not that of the teacher.

I'm sorry to hear you feel this way.  It sounds as though you've never worked with a truly wonderful teacher.  Even though I am a teacher myself, I still take lessons sometimes, and I am always in awe of how much I can still learn from an excellent teacher.

[lenkaolenka]

I don't think, that the influence of the teacher on the progress of the student is this big.

Music is made out of simple ingredients.
Playing movements are very simple too.
The teacher can help a little in finding proper pieces for the actual capabilities of the student.
The teacher can point out some things like fingering, pedaling, articulation.
Then some students will work on their pieces with great energy and will make great progress, others will not be as watchful and will not work as much, so they will make only slow and little progress.

You cannot force music into people. As a teacher, you can only offer, what you know about music and about piano playing.

If a student makes great progress and becomes a real musician and pianist, it is his  achievement, not that of the teacher.

I completely agree with this post

[m1469]

I don't think, that the influence of the teacher on the progress of the student is this big.

Music is made out of simple ingredients.
Playing movements are very simple too.
The teacher can help a little in finding proper pieces for the actual capabilities of the student.
The teacher can point out some things like fingering, pedaling, articulation.
Then some students will work on their pieces with great energy and will make great progress, others will not be as watchful and will not work as much, so they will make only slow and little progress.

You cannot force music into people. As a teacher, you can only offer, what you know about music and about piano playing.

If a student makes great progress and becomes a real musician and pianist, it is his  achievement, not that of the teacher.

Well, I think it's true that a teacher is not a teacher without a student, but likewise, a student is not a student without a teacher (whatever or whomever that teacher may be).   They both need one another in order to exist and fulfill their roles, and therein lay the impact of the relationship.   What I find very interesting is that in my experience, each individual --whether labeled as the "teacher" or the "student" -- winds up being both at once, respectively.  And, when the fit between them is truly superb, the results can be absolutely *phenomenal*. 

I can honestly say that, at this point in my life, I would not trade those kinds of experiences for anything else in the entire world. .


Cheers,
m1469

[pangurban]

Good book for Adult beginners:
Making Music at the Piano,  Learning Strategies for adult Students by Barbara English
Maris (2000) it is a new addition to the bookshelves of adult piano students and their teachers.

I found it good, it recognizes the unique problems of adult students when learning to play the piano.

[rc]

I think along the same lines as counterpoint on this issue.  I'm more concerned with being a good student than how the teacher teaches.

So, if a teacher: - is a better, more experienced musician than me
- has the patience to explain and show me things until I understand
- is someone I can get along with, has similar tastes

...That is the perfect teacher for me.

The burden of learning is for the student, the better prepared the student (practices, knows goals, has questions, tells problems) the better the teacher can guide.  This approach has worked pretty good.

[prongated]

...so in other words, a good teacher will develop one into an independent and individual musician?

[pianowelsh]

If a student achieves it is always comprising three elements! 1. Hardwork on the teachers part (this must never be negated - a well planned and intuative approach must guide the student through the hurdles of learning MUSIC). 2. HARD work from the student, this means not only following the instructions of the teacher but applying your brain to what you have been exhorted and looking for ways to develop this - this may well involve active reading around the suject, browsing through additional pieces with similar concepts (the teacher will often be glad to point the student in the right directions).  3. A fairly big degree of LUCK and perseverance. Because so many things can get in the way of good learning and teaching, some of which are within our control others which arent. Its a willingness to persevere though patches that may be less than perfect for both parties which achieve success. 
So im sorry but I find both extremes of the argument - a  little simplisitic.

[rc]

3. A fairly big degree of LUCK and perseverance. Because so many things can get in the way of good learning and teaching, some of which are within our control others which arent. Its a willingness to persevere though patches that may be less than perfect for both parties which achieve success. 

I'm curious, what kinds of things do you mean that would get in the way?

So im sorry but I find both extremes of the argument - a  little simplisitic.

I'm looking back at my post from last night... I was on a slight tangent with that one, that's more of an approach as a student.  I imagine that if I had a bad teacher it would become apparent.  My teacher must be doing a good job, things are running smoothly and I'm able to focus all my attention on your second element.

But still, I think students ought to focus their attention on the second element by default, only concerning themselves with the other elements if they're becoming detrimental...  Then, as the hardworking proactive student, you deal with it (bring up issues to the teacher, fix whatever else gets in the way).

I feel like sometimes students put undue pressure on the teacher, as if a good teacher is supposed to somehow learn for them...  Blaming outside sources when progress isn't satisfactory.  If I haven't made progress, I know exactly why - because I haven't put in quality practice time.

[rc]

...so in other words, a good teacher will develop one into an independent and individual musician?

I can't think of a better goal for a student!  In the end, why settle for less?

One of the worst things I'd heard was of a teacher who taught this girl for a few years, but she never learned how to read music!  (to be fair, she's a difficult personality, I think she went through a lot of teachers before she found one who was willing to accept her parents money to read music FOR her week after week.  She didn't WANT to learn)

But to be picky, I wouldn't say the teacher develops the student into an independant musician, more like shows the way...  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[pianowelsh]

I refer to a whole host of things which range from a broken finger, to falling in love, to being accepted to read maths and astrophysics at Cambridge etc many things can upset the equilibrium - its called life.

[a-sharp]

[not reading ALL of the responses] ... and, as a student and a teacher ~

I personally find a good teacher to be someone who, beyond being capable of teaching the basics, can help a student see things in a way they didn't see on their own - sometimes it's a matter of communication - my own current teacher I really like as she is able to break down for me WHY, say, my melodic line isn't getting across [as, I'm fading out certain notes for some weird reason and wasn't even aware of it]... she sees things in my body position that might be preventing me from getting a bigger tone from the piano [we can't always be aware of ALL our parts at the same time...] ... She has a good thorough knowledge of the piece I'm working on ... anyway - beyond all that - we just "click" - I think any teacher-student relationship is as much based on chemistry as all the other stuff.

that's so true about asking questions ... I find that together, BOTH my teacher and I learn the most when she is asking questions - from super simple things like "you didn't mean that, right?" ... [which sometimes is followed by, "no - total accident", and sometimes, UM ... "I didn't mean what?... OH darn - UM, sadly I totally meant that (which means I've been playing a wrong note somewhere for ages)] - I also like that she asks me what *I* want to work on, vs. teacher who just dictate what they want to hear.

hence, as a teacher I TRY to remember to do these things as well ...

Having through knowledge of technique [including tension/relaxation/posture, etc], as well as history, background of the pieces and the composers is super important too... it's important to get to that space were we connect with the meaning of the music, and the imagery behind it ~

Oh - truthfully, for me, a sense of humor is really high up on the list as well! I don't believe in 'beating' music out of people.