Sol-fa/Solfege/Solfeggio

[will]

I wish to improve my aural skills, in particular the ability to hear something and play it straight away on the piano (not necessarily in the same key though, relatively will do). From what I have read it seems solfege is a good way to go. So -   

What are the differences between sol-fa, solfege and solfeggio?
Does solfege seem like a good fit for my goal?
Does anyone here use solfege in their studies?
What are the skills gained from solfege that have made you a better pianist/musician that you use on a regular basis?
Do you use movable or fixed do?
What the heck, does anyone use those Kodaly hand signs?
Without a teacher, what are some good materials to use to learn solfege?

[danny elfboy]

I wish to improve my aural skills, in particular the ability to hear something and play it straight away on the piano (not necessarily in the same key though, relatively will do). From what I have read it seems solfege is a good way to go. So -   

What are the differences between sol-fa, solfege and solfeggio?
Does solfege seem like a good fit for my goal?
Does anyone here use solfege in their studies?
What are the skills gained from solfege that have made you a better pianist/musician that you use on a regular basis?
Do you use movable or fixed do?

I don't think solfege is what you want
Solfege/solfeggio is used to practice rhythm
In other words it is just counting of increasingly complex figures where instead of saying 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 you say the name of the note with the lating notation:

Do oo FaMi Si ii Reee

If you want to improve your aural skill you need to learn the particular aural feeling of each interval so that you can either read a sheet and being able to know how it sounds away from the keyboard or listen something and be able to reproduce it at the keyboard or write the sheet yourself

Each interval has a unique sound which gives the same feeling when applied to any tonality. So if you practice the recognition of that particular "feeling" you will be able to tell intervals from just listening them

My suggestion is to practice 2 intervals a week so that at the end of the month you have memorized them all and have greatly improved your aural skill
It's important to be hyper-consistent with the aural training, so even when you absolutely have no time at all to practice you must at least devote 3-4 minutes to aural training and interval recognition

Some hints in learning the sound of each interval:

Tone & Semitone [Major Second and minor Second]

Observe this pairs of note

C - D
D - E
E - F

Now sing in succession the pairs of note, starting from the same intonation for all them



As demonstrated by the sheet

Each pair of note must learn from the same base of intonation

The intonation can start from whatever sound as long as the relation of one tone between them is maintaned

If you do this you will notice that singing the three pairs C-D D-E E-F you're induced to sing them all in the same manner as if where all "tones"
This "induced mistake" is necessary to make one aware of the strong difference between a tone and a semitone

So now instead starting from the same intonation point, sing the corrent intervals



What you have to do is practicing singing the three pairs of note C-D D-E E-F so that you know the first two are tones and the third one is a semitone, starting from each note of the cromatic scale as an intonation basis

Third minor

This is a tone + a semitone so it's better to sing it in scale and then as an interval



What you have to is practicing singing first the small scale then the interval alone starting from all notes of the cromatic scale as an intonation basis

Third Major

Is a tone + tone, so again the best way to memorize it is singing it as scale and then as an interval alone starting from each note of the cromatic scale as an intonation basis

C - D - E || C - E


Perfect Four

The best way to learn the Perfect Four is to play it at the piano and consider that there's here a Tonic - Dominant

The Tonic is/represents a point of rest or of arrival
The Dominand is/represents a point of tension, or unresolution ... just like a bow in tension.

So after hearing the sound of the Perfect Four C-F at the piano try to remember the "particular quality" of this sound by remembering the "tension" or "bow in tension" principle

Practice the intonation of the Perfect Four starting from each note of the cromatic scale

Let me know if you think this may help me you and you will go on with the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh intervals

[will]

Thanks danny elfboy. A few things. 

I don't think solfege is what you want
Solfege/solfeggio is used to practice rhythm
In other words it is just counting of increasingly complex figures where instead of saying 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 you say the name of the note with the lating notation:

Do oo FaMi Si ii Reee

There's more to it than practicing rhythm. I think it is mainly used for sight singing which includes pitch as well.

Each interval has a unique sound which gives the same feeling when applied to any tonality.

No it doesn't, not if I understand you correctly. Take two minor 6ths in C major - E to C and A to F. E to C sounds consonant whereas A to F sound like it wants to resolve. So even within one tonality the same intervals sound different.

The best way to learn the Perfect Four is to play it at the piano and consider that there's here a Tonic - Dominant

The Tonic is/represents a point of rest or of arrival
The Dominand is/represents a point of tension, or unresolution ... just like a bow in tension.

So after hearing the sound of the Perfect Four C-F at the piano try to remember the "particular quality" of this sound by remembering the "tension" or "bow in tension" principle

No, I followed that method and it doesn't work. Just say in the key of C I had the ascending notes B E A D G C F. Following this method I would have to mentally change key 6 times! B to E I would think V - I in E major B C# D# E, then from E to A I would think V - I in A major E F# G# A etc.

In solfege you learn to hear the function of the note within the key. So in the B E A D G C F example you would hear B as scale degree 7 then hear E as scale degree 3 and know that is a perfect 4th. Next you would hear A as scale degree 6 and so on. This seems like a much more sensible approach.

Anyone out there with some experience in solfege who can answer my original questions and lead me to some good resources?

[nocturnal]

Hey I am new here, just checking this forum out , found it by surfing the internet.

I have always liked this song, it sounds so cool.  I've yet to figure out how to play it right. It seems to me it is ussually played at a fast tempo. I've yet to be able to play it at the tempo set by the composer! I've yet to be able to accomplish this. Is this a song you can play amd make it sound ok at a slower  tempo? Or does it have to be played at a fast tempo?

It seems like this song is harder than it looks.

Thanks

[lenkaolenka]

I wish to improve my aural skills, in particular the ability to hear something and play it straight away on the piano (not necessarily in the same key though, relatively will do). From what I have read it seems solfege is a good way to go. So -   

What are the differences between sol-fa, solfege and solfeggio?

All these wards mean practically the same – a fundamental subject of music learning – Solfeggio – subject of ear training, ability to hear music in your head, ability to sing any music by notes, ability to write any music without help of instrument by ear, ability to memorize and produce music in very advance level.

Does solfege seem like a good fit for my goal?

ABSOLUTELY!

Does anyone here use solfege in their studies?

Unfortunately, majority of piano teachers in the USA, Canada, UK and Australia are half educated and are not free with Solfeggio. There are 2 reasons for that:
1.   England was a 'mother-country', which used letters for notes' names and after colonization all the listed countries adapted the same system
2.   Solfeggio as a subject was established and developed in Russia especially after communist Revolution, because Soviet government was supporting music education financially. Other countries simply 'CAN NOT AFFORD' Solfeggio as a subject. Many American 'freshmen' of Music universities start learning Solfeggio, when it is too late. This is why many of graduates are worse in writing music dictations and sightreading, then Elementary students of music schools in Russia.

What are the skills gained from solfege that have made you a better pianist/musician that you use on a regular basis?

Solfeggio develops music mind – ability to think musically. It helps to play the same piece in different tune, learn how to read music, improvise and compose.

Do you use movable or fixed do?

Movable DO is the same nonsense as 'movable A' in English Alphabet. Kodaly created his system in order to teach musically illiterate people to sing in choir with NO VIEW to teach them to read music in future. He received his education in Russian music school and in order do not confuse Solfeggio with his system, he created other syllables: Jo, Le, Di etc. But his idea was adapted in 'Alphabetical countries' wrong way and practically killed Solfeggio as a subject.

What the heck, does anyone use those Kodaly hand signs?

Yes, music teachers in public schools use them and claim that they teach Solfeggio, which is far from the truth

Without a teacher, what are some good materials to use to learn solfege?

I developed a system, which also teaches Solfeggio.

[will]

Unfortunately, majority of piano teachers in the USA, Canada, UK and Australia are half educated and are not free with Solfeggio. There are 2 reasons for that:
1.   England was a 'mother-country', which used letters for notes' names and after colonization all the listed countries adapted the same system
2.   Solfeggio as a subject was established and developed in Russia especially after communist Revolution, because Soviet government was supporting music education financially. Other countries simply 'CAN NOT AFFORD' Solfeggio as a subject. Many American 'freshmen' of Music universities start learning Solfeggio, when it is too late.

I fit into this category so hopefully it isn't too late for me to learn. 

Movable DO is the same nonsense as 'movable A' in English Alphabet. Kodaly created his system in order to teach musically illiterate people to sing in choir with NO VIEW to teach them to read music in future. He received his education in Russian music school and in order do not confuse Solfeggio with his system, he created other syllables: Jo, Le, Di etc. But his idea was adapted in 'Alphabetical countries' wrong way and practically killed Solfeggio as a subject.

I'm not sure I understand – are you saying 'fixed do' is the way to go? Do you teach that C is always 'do' regardless of key?

I developed a system, which also teaches Solfeggio.

Yes, I have read most of the pages on your site and watched many videos which got me interested in solfege. The questions I ask you now will hopefully straighten things out and lead me in the right direction. Thanks.

More things I am wondering:
How do you treat major and minor scales? Does the tonic note in minor become 'do'?
What about sharp and flat notes outside the scale notes?
Why not use the numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8? Anyone can sing a major scale up and down straight away using numbers whereas learning solfege labels is more difficult. You can also see the tendency tones easier as they are right next to each other, like 7-8 and 4-3 instead of ti-do and fa-mi.

Thanks for your replies Lenkaolenka.

[lenkaolenka]

I fit into this category so hopefully it isn't too late for me to learn. 

No, it is never too late. It is more the question of the pride. What I found out after training music educators: the more intelligent person – the more willing to learn new tricks. I think, it is a rule of life

I'm not sure I understand – are you saying 'fixed do' is the way to go? Do you teach that C is always 'do' regardless of key?

Yes. We have Do Major, Re major, Mi flat Major etc.

Yes, I have read most of the pages on your site and watched many videos which got me interested in solfege. The questions I ask you now will hopefully straighten things out and lead me in the right direction. Thanks.

When I came to the USA 14 years ago (being already music educator with experience), I questioned myself: what id ABC really works better. After research I found out, that when students sing out loud or inside their mind music that they play, they memorize it better, faster, never get lost during performances and capable of write and produce music with more ease.

More things I am wondering:
How do you treat major and minor scales? Does the tonic note in minor become 'do'?
What about sharp and flat notes outside the scale notes?

The same you treat Major and Minor with letters. Do Major and Do Minor. In Russian music schools we used to sing scales and pronouncing sharps and flats. For example, D major = Re major: Re Mi Fa-sharp Sol La Ti Do-sharp Re

Why not use the numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8? Anyone can sing a major scale up and down straight away using numbers whereas learning solfege labels is more difficult. You can also see the tendency tones easier as they are right next to each other, like 7-8 and 4-3 instead of ti-do and fa-mi.

Because by using singing with notes we develop music mind in different keys and ability to sight-read, transpose and understand music as a language on more advanced level. To memorize 7 patterns from Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Ti nor such a big deal. In fact, I created a song ( rap+opera ), that teaches it within couple of minutes. The benefits of this knowledge are truly priceless.

Every baby learns language of mother's tong using speech memory. Solfeggio syllables just fit in our mind without any effort.  All we need to do – is to follow the nature.

Another point to ponder: scientists discovered, that development of voice and music ear are connected. Singing during learning music is essential at the beginning. Alphabet names are not fit for singing. Solfeggio are.

[danny elfboy]

Thanks danny elfboy. A few things. 
There's more to it than practicing rhythm. I think it is mainly used for sight singing which includes pitch as well.

No it doesn't, not if I understand you correctly. Take two minor 6ths in C major - E to C and A to F. E to C sounds consonant whereas A to F sound like it wants to resolve. So even within one tonality the same intervals sound different.

I tried many times after reading you reply and they keep sounding identical in character to me, they sound both consonant to me and can't hear the resolution tendency you talk about. Beware that when you practice aural recognition skill you must make sure that you're not "bringing with yourself" the "echo" of the previous interval you listened
At the beginning in order to recognize intervals one must play one interval and wait that the "echo" of the old inteval disappears both in the instruments, ear and mind before listening the next interval. If you play E to C to someone and ask him/her to remember the "particular characteristic of the sound" and the you play something "counfonding for a while" and after that (when the E to C echo has disappeared) you play an A to F this person will tell you  have played the same thing you played at the beginning when you played E to C (the only exception someone with inborn absolute pitch)

No, I followed that method and it doesn't work. Just say in the key of C I had the ascending notes B E A D G C F. Following this method I would have to mentally change key 6 times! B to E I would think V - I in E major B C# D# E, then from E to A I would think V - I in A major E F# G# A etc.

We're talking about different things
You're talking about key analysis but ear-training is absolutely non-theorical
It's just becoming accustomed with the sounds you can recognize them "with just your ear" Aural-training is supposed to work even if you had you brain shut down and couldn't absolutely think except for recognizing sounds

What I can assure you is that you CAN'T do what ear-conditioning allows you to do by just using analysis of the key. In fact the last definite proof that ear-training has worked for you is when you can listen to an ATONAL piece and write it down without thinking about theory just listening and know what you listen

It's like I hear someone saying "nationality"
I don't have to think "n" and "a" and they together sound like "na" then there's a "t" which may sound like "t" o "sh" or "d" so I have to analyse the the root which is latin and think what kind of sound ...

NO!

You just listen "nationality" as a "word" and you know what has been said and can write it down in a couple of milliseconds. That's what you are supposed to do when you train your ear. You listen something and you write it down ... not because of theories and function of the key ... but because you recognize it immediately

I can assure that all minor 3rds and all major 7ths and all augmented 4ths sound the same and that's why I can tell them just by hearing them independently from the key or the tonic

In solfege you learn to hear the function of the note within the key. So in the B E A D G C F example you would hear B as scale degree 7 then hear E as scale degree 3 and know that is a perfect 4th. Next you would hear A as scale degree 6 and so on. This seems like a much more sensible approach.

Not sure ... this doesn't describe what solfege is.
Solfege or sol-fa comes from the italian.
Sol-fa is not only the name of two note spelled it also mean "repetitive and boring chatter" In fact solfege is a repetitive and boring chatter
In all music accademies I have been solfege is considered the aloud spelling of the note you see on a sheet. Solfege is the equivalent of the american counting only that instead of having numbers you have the name of the notes.

That's the reason why I told you that solfege wouldn't help you, it has nothing to do with sight-singing or harmonical analisys but if in america you use the word solfege to mean a different thing ... that's another issue

I have 4 years of training at my musical accademy in solfege, aural conditioning and sight-singing and solfege has always been over and over nothing but counting while spelling the names of the note: no fuctionality within the key and no singing

[danny elfboy]

All these wards mean practically the same – a fundamental subject of music learning – Solfeggio – subject of ear training, ability to hear music in your head, ability to sing any music by notes, ability to write any music without help of instrument by ear, ability to memorize and produce music in very advance level.

I was right then that in america you mean a different thing by Solfege
In all music accademies I have been in Eruope solfege means "counting while spelling the italian names of the notes" and is meant to basically learn rhythm and figures/division but has no relationship with sight-singing and tonal-analysis (or key-functionality) and aural-training that are different subjects altogether

[will]

The same you treat Major and Minor with letters. Do Major and Do Minor. In Russian music schools we used to sing scales and pronouncing sharps and flats. For example, D major = Re major: Re Mi Fa-sharp Sol La Ti Do-sharp Re

Interesting. Everything I have read to this point suggests that movable 'do' is the better approach. The only benefit I have read about fixed 'do' is that it can help develop perfect pitch.
Do you have perfect pitch?
What proportion of your students that learn fixed 'do' develop perfect pitch?
The solfege method I was reading about came from https://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/44/1
It talks about tendency tones - scale degree 4 wants to resolve to 3, scale degree 7 wants to resolve to 8 and so on. This method won't work in fixed 'do' so how to you approach learning fixed 'do' solfege?

Why is movable 'do' poor in comparison to fixed 'do'?

Because by using singing with notes we develop music mind in different keys and ability to sight-read, transpose and understand music as a language on more advanced level. To memorize 7 patterns from Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Ti nor such a big deal.

Isn't it more than 7 patterns? There are 15 basic major scales not to mention the minor and other variations of scales. How does that work and which 7 do you mean?

In fact, I created a song ( rap+opera ), that teaches it within couple of minutes. The benefits of this knowledge are truly priceless.

It would be great to hear that song! A couple of minutes to learn??? Right now my head is spinning from reading so much about solfege I think it would take longer than that.  If this knowledge is priceless then how can I obtain it? Would you be so kind as to post it here or send me a PM?

Every baby learns language of mother's tong using speech memory. Solfeggio syllables just fit in our mind without any effort.  All we need to do – is to follow the nature.

I hope it is that easy.

Another point to ponder: scientists discovered, that development of voice and music ear are connected. Singing during learning music is essential at the beginning. Alphabet names are not fit for singing. Solfeggio are.

Yes certainly. I still think it would be good to retain the numbers or variants of them. Maybe this could be achieved by just singing the vowel sound of each number. aaah (one) eeeew (two)  eeey (three)  oour (four)   iiiiy (five)   iiiii (six)   eeeeh (seven).

In the example you provided for Re Major - Re Mi Fa-sharp Sol La Ti Do-sharp Re -
do you sing Re Mi Fi Sol La Ti Di Re so that each note contains just one syllable?

[will]

I tried many times after reading you reply and they keep sounding identical in character to me, they sound both consonant to me and can't hear the resolution tendency you talk about.

Play a C major triad in the LH and while it is still ringing play E to C in the RH and it sounds consonant.
Next, play a C major triad in the LH and while it is still ringing play A to F in the RH and it sounds like the F wants to resolve to E.
Though the RH E to C and A to F are both minor 6ths they give a different effect depending which key they are in.

We're talking about different things
You're talking about key analysis but ear-training is absolutely non-theorical
It's just becoming accustomed with the sounds you can recognize them "with just your ear" Aural-training is supposed to work even if you had you brain shut down and couldn't absolutely think except for recognizing sounds

What I can assure you is that you CAN'T do what ear-conditioning allows you to do by just using analysis of the key. In fact the last definite proof that ear-training has worked for you is when you can listen to an ATONAL piece and write it down without thinking about theory just listening and know what you listen

That would be a great ability to have. However, most music I listen is tonal and has certain tendencies so when I hear intervals they take on a tonal context, I don't hear them as just sounds.

It's like I hear someone saying "nationality"
I don't have to think "n" and "a" and they together sound like "na" then there's a "t" which may sound like "t" o "sh" or "d" so I have to analyse the the root which is latin and think what kind of sound ...

NO!

You just listen "nationality" as a "word" and you know what has been said and can write it down in a couple of milliseconds. That's what you are supposed to do when you train your ear. You listen something and you write it down ... not because of theories and function of the key ... but because you recognize it immediately

I can assure that all minor 3rds and all major 7ths and all augmented 4ths sound the same and that's why I can tell them just by hearing them independently from the key or the tonic

I will reread your original post and see if I can make more sense of it. When I listen to intervals I automatically place them into a key. If I hear C - F I will most likely hear I - IV in C major or V - I in F major.
 Are there any other tips you could give me to avoid placing intervals into a key and to hear sounds in a non-theoritcal way?

[danny elfboy]

Play a C major triad in the LH and while it is still ringing play E to C in the RH and it sounds consonant.
Next, play a C major triad in the LH and while it is still ringing play A to F in the RH and it sounds like the F wants to resolve to E.
Though the RH E to C and A to F are both minor 6ths they give a different effect depending which key they are in.

It's an illusion though
It's not like two 6ths sound differently (and I'm talking about the peculiar quality of the interval) but it's like the tonic of the harmonization is heard so much that your earn mistaken it for the tonic of the whole interval ... so when you hear the A to F chord while still having in the ear a C major chord you want to resolve to E in order to complete the a minor chord

The reason why the A to F sounds "in need of resolution" when you harmonize it with a C major triad at the bass is that the tonic of the bass triad is heard more, so if you can't differentiate the treble part from the bass part the notes you hear more are C at the bass and F at the treble. Which is 4th interval and what I told you about the 4th interval? Tonic/Dominant relationship ... hence a point of tension (like a bow ready to shot the arrow) which finds a resultion in the major third of less strongly in the fifth

So as you can see what you hear is consistent with what I said the only difference being that when you play an A to F having the echo of a C major triad you actually hear a 4th interval (made of the two better heard notes) not the 6th but it still applies to what I said and I assure you that with yoru "absolute ear training" you will be able to hear a consonant C major triad at the bass and a consonant 6th at the treble rather than a combined 4th

That's why it's important in aural training not to have the echo of the bass part of previous chord in your ear. Since I have worked long with ear-training even when playing the C major triad in the left hand and playing either the E to C or A to F chord I can "differentiate" the 6th peculiar sound from the harmonical influence of the C maj chord. But in order to become able to do this you must first train by making sure that when you practice ear-training by listening to intervals you don't have the "echo" of the previous chord still in your ear and absolutely no harmonization at the bass

That would be a great ability to have. However, most music I listen is tonal and has certain tendencies so when I hear intervals they take on a tonal context, I don't hear them as just sounds.

But ear-training is about hearing them as sounds, bypassing the analysis process ... which is what we do also in order to listen "house" and write house in a fraction of a second after hearing it. The kind of quick-sound-processing that you may need as a musician and study ear-training for, requires sound recognition

I will reread your original post and see if I can make more sense of it. When I listen to intervals I automatically place them into a key. If I hear C - F I will most likely hear I - IV in C major or V - I in F major.
 Are there any other tips you could give me to avoid placing intervals into a key and to hear sounds in a non-theoritcal way?

You must make sure that when you work with ear-training (and you don't need more than few minutes everyday) you wait that the ECHO of the previous interval has DISAPPEARED from your ears and the instrument vibration so you're not fooled like you're when you listen a 6th A to F while a C major triad is still playing and you actually hears a 4th

Another good way is to have a small recurring melody that brings you to the interval and that you can autmatically forget with time ... this also helps not to be fooled by the echoes:

For example the 7th is a dissonant inteval and its "unique quality" is harder to memorize
Let's say for example C to Bb
It's hard to tune and hard to recognize
But the quality that C to Bb has will be the same quality that D to C has ... and that's why you need to memorize this intervals (in order to train your ear to sound recognition) without any harmonical influence

So the consonant interval is better tuned when after the tension you have resolution so a good way to memorize the relative minor 7th is to think of the interval as an introduction for something more consonant

Try this



Now try the same starting from D

As you can see the resolving melody allow you not to miss the target when you try to sing the interval but also allows you not to be fooled by notes in the harmonization that have you believe you're hearing a different interval

[will]

Danny, I really appreciate your efforts in taking the time to further explain yourself. Unfortunately I cannot understand how to follow what you propose.

Another good way is to have a small recurring melody that brings you to the interval and that you can autmatically forget with time ... this also helps not to be fooled by the echoes:

For example the 7th is a dissonant inteval and its "unique quality" is harder to memorize
Let's say for example C to Bb
It's hard to tune and hard to recognize
But the quality that C to Bb has will be the same quality that D to C has ... and that's why you need to memorize this intervals (in order to train your ear to sound recognition) without any harmonical influence

So the consonant interval is better tuned when after the tension you have resolution so a good way to memorize the relative minor 7th is to think of the interval as an introduction for something more consonant

Try this



Now try the same starting from D

As you can see the resolving melody allow you not to miss the target when you try to sing the interval but also allows you not to be fooled by notes in the harmonization that have you believe you're hearing a different interval

That's exactly what I have done in the past and it is limited. I could sing your example fairly easily as it automatically suggests a harmony of C7 resolving to F. So whenever I wanted to sing a minor 7th I would automatically put notes into the context of V7 - I.
However the notes C - Bb do not always appear in that context. What happens if the note C - Bb occur above an Ab major chord? Following your melody from above you probably wouldn't be able to sing the inverval easily because you try and force it into the wrong tonality. You can no longer easily sing the resolving notes A G A F since the A natural clashes with the Ab major chord. Also finishing on F is no longer a great resolution since it isn't a note of the Ab major chord.

Does that make sense?

[danny elfboy]

Danny, I really appreciate your efforts in taking the time to further explain yourself. Unfortunately I cannot understand how to follow what you propose.

That's exactly what I have done in the past and it is limited. I could sing your example fairly easily as it automatically suggests a harmony of C7 resolving to F. So whenever I wanted to sing a minor 7th I would automatically put notes into the context of V7 - I.
However the notes C - Bb do not always appear in that context. What happens if the note C - Bb occur above an Ab major chord? Following your melody from above you probably wouldn't be able to sing the inverval easily because you try and force it into the wrong tonality. You can no longer easily sing the resolving notes A G A F since the A natural clashes with the Ab major chord. Also finishing on F is no longer a great resolution since it isn't a note of the Ab major chord.

Does that make sense?

Well ... but you're again resisting the ear-training
Ear-training is something that could be easily done by someone who don't know anything about notes, music, theory ...
You're still obsessing your ears with the theory while you should just listen and memorize and forget that you indeed know something about theory

For example a practice of ear-training is having someone playing a note at the piano (while you're looking the other way) and telling the name of the note
Clerly the single note is without any harmonal context ... and that's the point
Ear-training is the absolute recognizing of sounds by having memorized them without then being in any concrete and ordered musical context and it's something that you can teach to a 4 years old who knows nothing about music theory

You're focusing too much on harmony ... but if you want to train your ear you must begin with just melody.
The sheet chunk I provided ..
what you have to do for example to aurally memorize the 7th minor interval is to sing that sing for 10 minutes everyday starting from whatever note without thinking of that theorically ... you just thing that chunk and then you just change the piece and mantain the same relationship between the tonic and the second note of the interval, just aurally, not theorically ...
Memorize that chunk and then do the singing always changing the pitch away from the piano, away from the sheet, away from the pencil .. away from any theorical and written thing ... do it while lying down in the bed with your eyes closed ... forget theory and think only about the sound ... about the unique sound ratio of that interval which is an "archetype" for all the same intervals even when they start from a different pitch

That's all you haveto do to train your ears

[lenkaolenka]

Interesting. Everything I have read to this point suggests that movable 'do' is the better approach. The only benefit I have read about fixed 'do' is that it can help develop perfect pitch.
Do you have perfect pitch?

I want you to understand one thing – MOVABLE DO IS A DISASTER FOR MUSIC LITERACY. Movable Do take people away from reading notation. This is a rule! Students are not dumb and can remember
Do re mi fa so la ti do in C
Re mi fa sol la ti do re in D
Mi fa sol la ti do re mi in E
Fa sol la ti do re mi fa in F
Sol la ti do re mi fa sol in G
La ti do re mi8 fa sol la in A
And Ti do re mi fa sol la ti in B

But by replacing names of music notes with Solfeggio syllables we gain opportunity to SING music with voice and inside of our mind. Fore example, if my student learns 'In the hall of the mountain king' and sings in D minor
Re mi fa sol la fa la sol mi sol sjl mi sol ( even without naming sharps and flats but intonating them with voice)
After such singing along the playing the student would have many advantages:
1.   He understands more about order of music notes
2.   He develops voice and ear
3.   He is capable to write music down
4.   He is capable to play it in different key

PERFECT PITCH has nothing to do with that! Yes, I do have perfect pitch and some students develop perfect pitch on the top of their development. Bottom line here is: Solfeggio ( real Solfeggio which is connected with literacy) is essential foundation for music education. Period.

What proportion of your students that learn fixed 'do' develop perfect pitch?

Well, I can say about all the music students of former Soviet Union: we all were taught fixed 'Do', but only some of us developed perfect pitch. On another hand, graduates of our music secondary schools and conservatories are more advanced in profession then anywhere else in the world. Russian musicians are highly rated everywhere in the world.

The solfege method I was reading about came from https://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/44/1
It talks about tendency tones - scale degree 4 wants to resolve to 3, scale degree 7 wants to resolve to 8 and so on. This method won't work in fixed 'do' so how to you approach learning fixed 'do' solfege?

Why it won't work with fixed DO?

Why is movable 'do' poor in comparison to fixed 'do'?

Each letter of English alphabet has a name. Now try to switch names of each letter. How far would you go with it? Each note also has a name. But when you name abstract notes with abstract symbol ( A B C D etc) you add confusion. Music was born from human voice and everything that we hear we sing with vocal chords (vocal chords also are organs of music perception).
People use seven names of Solfeggio to prove the point that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 steps of scale sound differently.  The relationship between all these steps students capable of memorizing and understanding on intonation level!

Isn't it more than 7 patterns? There are 15 basic major scales not to mention the minor and other variations of scales. How does that work and which 7 do you mean?

No, it is only 7 patterns. The 7 pattern is a skeleton. All other scales are variations with sharps and flats.

It would be great to hear that song! A couple of minutes to learn??? Right now my head is spinning from reading so much about solfege I think it would take longer than that.  If this knowledge is priceless then how can I obtain it? Would you be so kind as to post it here or send me a PM?

I will send you a PM

I hope it is that easy.

Yes certainly. I still think it would be good to retain the numbers or variants of them. Maybe this could be achieved by just singing the vowel sound of each number. aaah (one) eeeew (two)  eeey (three)  oour (four)   iiiiy (five)   iiiii (six)   eeeeh (seven).

In the example you provided for Re Major - Re Mi Fa-sharp Sol La Ti Do-sharp Re -
do you sing Re Mi Fi Sol La Ti Di Re so that each note contains just one syllable?

In our music schools some teachers ask us to sing words 'sharp' and 'flat' – some didn't. But we all quickly learned how to FEEL sharps and flats by singing the notes. We can't underestimate the power of intonation in music learning process. Trust me, it is no need for extra steps in understanding numbers of scale by singing Solfeggio in different keys! I was there ( like million of others) done that. You are not different.

[will]

Ear-training is the absolute recognizing of sounds by having memorized them without then being in any concrete and ordered musical context and it's something that you can teach to a 4 years old who knows nothing about music theory

OK. I understand that you think I should approach ear training in a non-theoretical way, but......

You're focusing too much on harmony ... but if you want to train your ear you must begin with just melody.
The sheet chunk I provided ..
what you have to do for example to aurally memorize the 7th minor interval is to sing that sing for 10 minutes everyday starting from whatever note without thinking of that theorically ... you just thing that chunk and then you just change the piece and mantain the same relationship between the tonic and the second note of the interval, just aurally, not theorically ...

But in your original post you talk about scales and harmony. You say a minor third “is a tone + a semitone so it's better to sing it in scale and then as an interval” and that a major third is “Is a tone + tone, so again the best way to memorize it is singing it as scale and then as an interval” and that “The best way to learn the Perfect Four is to play it at the piano and consider that there's here a Tonic – Dominant.”
I would be very grateful if you could clarify this and provide examples for intervals of fifths, sixths and sevenths.

Also, I don't understand in your original post where you say “Observe this pairs of note C – D, D – E, E – F. Now sing in succession the pairs of note, starting from the same intonation for all them If you do this you will notice that singing the three pairs C-D D-E E-F you're induced to sing them all in the same manner as if where all "tones." This "induced mistake" is necessary to make one aware of the strong difference between a tone and a semitone

what you have to do for example to aurally memorize the 7th minor interval is to sing that sing for 10 minutes everyday starting from whatever note without thinking of that theorically ... you just thing that chunk and then you just change the piece and mantain the same relationship between the tonic and the second note of the interval, just aurally, not theorically ...
Memorize that chunk and then do the singing always changing the pitch away from the piano, away from the sheet, away from the pencil .. away from any theorical and written thing ... do it while lying down in the bed with your eyes closed ... forget theory and think only about the sound ... about the unique sound ratio of that interval which is an "archetype" for all the same intervals even when they start from a different pitch

I will continue to try this but I have trouble in trying to just listen to the sound. I already have things ingrained in my mind, i.e. a perfect fifth is the start of “Twinkle Twinkle”, I – V in a major key. Any more suggestions on how to overcome this?

[will]

I want you to understand one thing – MOVABLE DO IS A DISASTER FOR MUSIC LITERACY.

Strong words Lenka, strong words indeed.

Movable Do take people away from reading notation. This is a rule! Students are not dumb and can remember
Do re mi fa so la ti do in C
Re mi fa sol la ti do re in D
Mi fa sol la ti do re mi in E
Fa sol la ti do re mi fa in F
Sol la ti do re mi fa sol in G
La ti do re mi8 fa sol la in A
And Ti do re mi fa sol la ti in B

I forgot that you use 'do re mi fa so la ti do' not only for ear training but for reading music as well. So there is a strong, absolute connection between the sound, piano keys, and notes on the page.
Do your students learn C D E F G A B C as well?   

But by replacing names of music notes with Solfeggio syllables we gain opportunity to SING music with voice and inside of our mind. Fore example, if my student learns 'In the hall of the mountain king' and sings in D minor
Re mi fa sol la fa la sol mi sol sjl mi sol ( even without naming sharps and flats but intonating them with voice)
After such singing along the playing the student would have many advantages:
1.   He understands more about order of music notes
2.   He develops voice and ear
3.   He is capable to write music down
4.   He is capable to play it in different key

I thought movable 'do' would be better for 4. With movable 'do' to sing 'In the Hall of the Mountain King' you just think 'do re me fa so me so' and transfer these same solfege labels to any other minor key. When using fixed 'do'  every new key requires new solfege syllables – it is confusing in that way. How can one easily play in different keys with fixed 'do'?

Why it won't work with fixed DO?

With movable 'do', 'do' is always the tonic and will feel stable,  'fa' will always want to resolve to 'mi' and so on. With fixed 'do', any of 'do re me fa so la ti do' and their sharps and flats can be the tonic and feel stable, 'fa' won't always want to resolve to 'mi' and so on.
With movable 'do' the labels remain constant regardless of key but with fixed 'do' they change.
Is the solfege method I mentioned (https://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/44/1) similar to your approach in that it uses tendency tones?

Each letter of English alphabet has a name. Now try to switch names of each letter. How far would you go with it? Each note also has a name. But when you name abstract notes with abstract symbol ( A B C D etc) you add confusion. Music was born from human voice and everything that we hear we sing with vocal chords (vocal chords also are organs of music perception).
People use seven names of Solfeggio to prove the point that 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 steps of scale sound differently.  The relationship between all these steps students capable of memorizing and understanding on intonation level!

do re mi fa etc. are still abstract symbols. However I understand that they are easier to sing than A B C D and thus make a stronger connection with other aspects of learning music. Where can I find out more about “everything that we hear we sing with vocal chords (vocal chords also are organs of music perception).”?
Also what do you mean by "The relationship between all these steps students capable of memorizing and understanding on intonation level!"?

I will send you a PM

That will be great. Thanks.

In our music schools some teachers ask us to sing words 'sharp' and 'flat' – some didn't. But we all quickly learned how to FEEL sharps and flats by singing the notes.

It sounds confusing to use the same solfege label but to intonate them differently for sharps and flats. How would you sing C# major using fixed 'do'?
So 'do – mi' could easily be a major or minor third  C to E or C# to E?

We can't underestimate the power of intonation in music learning process.

What do you mean by intonation? Singing solfege?

Trust me, it is no need for extra steps in understanding numbers of scale by singing Solfeggio in different keys! I was there ( like million of others) done that. You are not different.

Numbers are unnecessary? So no tendency tones?

BTW, have you ever tried movable 'do' for any length of time? What were the results?

[lenkaolenka]

Strong words Lenka, strong words indeed.

OK, I would write this way: movable Do is a disaster for music literacy, BECAUSE half of the globe didn't learn how to write music dictations, unable to sing in different tunes, don't develop ear properly and unable to hear music inside of their mind. Solfeggio – fundamental subject of professional music learning – was castrated to relationship of 7 syllables.

I forgot that you use 'do re mi fa so la ti do' not only for ear training but for reading music as well. So there is a strong, absolute connection between the sound, piano keys, and notes on the page.
Do your students learn C D E F G A B C as well?   

Yes, they learn C D E F G A B, when they study theory, harmony and counterpoint.

I thought movable 'do' would be better for 4. With movable 'do' to sing 'In the Hall of the Mountain King' you just think 'do re me fa so me so' and transfer these same solfege labels to any other minor key. When using fixed 'do'  every new key requires new solfege syllables – it is confusing in that way. How can one easily play in different keys with fixed 'do'?

Will, to remember relationship between 7 notes is not confusing! In fact, memorize 7 patterns of syllables much more simple, then 7 patterns of letters back and force. But it is essential for music learning: this way you know piano keys and music notes layout. You play a key and know exactly, where is you fingers and what is around it. How easily to play in different keys with fixed 'do'? Watch a video on youtube: I and my 6 years old student (he started piano 1 year ago)

With movable 'do', 'do' is always the tonic and will feel stable,  'fa' will always want to resolve to 'mi' and so on. With fixed 'do', any of 'do re me fa so la ti do' and their sharps and flats can be the tonic and feel stable, 'fa' won't always want to resolve to 'mi' and so on.

What about alterations and movement to different tunes? And why Fa can't be Tonic or Re?)))

With movable 'do' the labels remain constant regardless of key but with fixed 'do' they change.
Is the solfege method I mentioned (https://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/44/1) similar to your approach in that it uses tendency tones?

No! They use movable 'do'.

do re mi fa etc. are still abstract symbols. However I understand that they are easier to sing than A B C D and thus make a stronger connection with other aspects of learning music. Where can I find out more about “everything that we hear we sing with vocal chords (vocal chords also are organs of music perception).”?

This experiment had been provided by Moscow University (psychology faculty). Mr. Leontiev ( professor) developed an electronic sensitive device which indicates muscle activity. It was placed on throats of different people. When they were listening to music even being silent, the device indicated, that vocal chords were vibrating with sounds of music. Do you know, that music developed from human throat? It was born from vowels of our speech? Do you know, that 30% of European languages' people can't carry tune, because they percept music on speech level ( by differentiating wards by consonances). However, Vietnamese and  Chinese people, which have element of singing in their language have NO individual, who can't carry tune? 

Also what do you mean by "The relationship between all these steps students capable of memorizing and understanding on intonation level!"?

It means, that any child can easily remember the relationship between Tonica and 2 note, 2 note and 3rd etc in Major and Minor and keep it in mind while singing music in different keys.

It sounds confusing to use the same solfege label but to intonate them differently for sharps and flats. How would you sing C# major using fixed 'do'?

The same like Do but with sharps in mind.

So 'do – mi' could easily be a major or minor third  C to E or C# to E?

My students memorize music Solfeggio and write it down. Even though they don't pronounce sharps and flats, they ALWAYS write them down during dictations. It means, the Solfeggio develops music minds big time!

What do you mean by intonation? Singing solfege?

And translating everything into Solfege

Numbers are unnecessary? So no tendency tones?

Our teachers usually put numbers on the board, when students learn new scale and need some time to get use to it.

BTW, have you ever tried movable 'do' for any length of time? What were the results?

yes! It was like sitting in 3 weels bicycle after riding motorcycle.  )))

[will]

OK, I would write this way: movable Do is a disaster for music literacy, BECAUSE half of the globe didn't learn how to write music dictations, unable to sing in different tunes, don't develop ear properly and unable to hear music inside of their mind. Solfeggio – fundamental subject of professional music learning – was castrated to relationship of 7 syllables.

I still do not fully understand why movable Do is a 'disaster' compared to fixed Do.

Yes, they learn C D E F G A B, when they study theory, harmony and counterpoint.

More for students to learn....

Will, to remember relationship between 7 notes is not confusing! In fact, memorize 7 patterns of syllables much more simple, then 7 patterns of letters back and force. But it is essential for music learning: this way you know piano keys and music notes layout. You play a key and know exactly, where is you fingers and what is around it. How easily to play in different keys with fixed 'do'? Watch a video on youtube: I and my 6 years old student (he started piano 1 year ago)

Unfortunately YouTube is not online at the moment. I will check back later.

What about alterations and movement to different tunes? And why Fa can't be Tonic or Re?)))

Yes, if singing in movable Do when a piece modulates Do also changes place. However, in fixed Do when a piece modulates you still have to figure out what the new key is to work out the relationship between the notes.

It means, that any child can easily remember the relationship between Tonica and 2 note, 2 note and 3rd etc in Major and Minor and keep it in mind while singing music in different keys.

So you use a combination of naming notes Do Re Mi etc and thinking about intervals like 2nds, 3rds etc?

The same like Do but with sharps in mind.

Still sounds confusing not to give everything an exact label. Why not use Di, Ri, Te etc?

yes! It was like sitting in 3 weels bicycle after riding motorcycle.  )))

LOL, nice comparison. How long did you try movable Do for?

I am not sure which solfege system is best for what I want. I am continuing to read about solfege and will ask more questions when I gather my thoughts. Thanks again for your help Lenka. 

[lenkaolenka]

Dear Will,

In order to read and play music fluently students ought to know order of music notes like they no order of numbers, months, letters of Alphabet etc.
If you learn with ABC system, you have to know all the patterns back and forth anyway, because unlike letters music notes have 2 directions and CDE equal EDS
When people play music and sight-read they have to be aware what key the finger pushes, what note is getting played and which keys surrounding that key or note.

 So, first of all, people have to learn Music Alphabet
CDEFGABC – CBAGFEDS
The same from D – DEFGABCD – DCBAGFEDS
The same from A etc

Also they have to know the same order in one key back and forth
C E G B D F A C –  C A C E G B D F A

The same from D E F G A B notes

Also they have to know order in 2 keys
C F B E A D G C – C G D A E B F C
 The same from  D E F G A B notes

Many music teachers think that Every Good Boy Does Fine is a solution. It is not!
You can't put all the music system  in short leash of couple English phrases!

The Solfeggio syllables are better fit not only for singing during learning music but also for learning the  Music Alphabet, because speech memory is something that every individual established from birth by learning language.

So, to memorize,  for example,   C E G B D F A C –  C A C E G B D F A is much harder then
DO MI SOL TI RE FA LA DO – D LA FA RE TI SOL MI DO

[will]

Lenka, I have been practicing solfege on basic melodies and am easily confused by the solfege syllables. I am yet to receive a PM of your rap - opera, that would hopefully be be a great help for learning solfege names.

Since both A B C and Do Re Mi are needed at various stages of music education it would be good to try and create a better link between them, one that is easier to remember.

What do you think about new solfege syllables? Here is one idea https://www.il-acda.org/PDFs/NewSOLFEG2003.PDF

My own idea for new fixed solfege syllables keeps the vowel sound of DO RE ME FA SO LA TI DO but changes the consonant part to make them more in line with A B C D E F G.

This is for fixed DO.

So = C
De (pronounced Day) = D                                 
Mi = E
Fa = F
Go = G
La = A
Bi (pronounced Bee) = B

What do you think?

[lenkaolenka]

Lenka, I have been practicing solfege on basic melodies and am easily confused by the solfege syllables. I am yet to receive a PM of your rap - opera, that would hopefully be be a great help for learning solfege names.

Since both A B C and Do Re Mi are needed at various stages of music education it would be good to try and create a better link between them, one that is easier to remember.

What do you think about new solfege syllables? Here is one idea https://www.il-acda.org/PDFs/NewSOLFEG2003.PDF

My own idea for new fixed solfege syllables keeps the vowel sound of DO RE ME FA SO LA TI DO but changes the consonant part to make them more in line with A B C D E F G.

This is for fixed DO.

So = C
De (pronounced Day) = D                                 
Mi = E
Fa = F
Go = G
La = A
Bi (pronounced Bee) = B

What do you think?

Will, yesterday I had THREE recitals. Sorry for delay!
Before I will be able to do anything with the song, you may download free demos of our games that teaches both ABC and Do Re Mi Alphabet. Do you want me to give you these links?

About the idea: I think it is BRILLIANT!

[pianistimo]

i tend to think this system is especially invaluable to children because if you learn this EARLY - then it's no big deal to learn.  the kodaly book 'sound thinking' is really a great explaination of all this - with a lot of tunes and ideas for kids. 

as you get older - you just don't want to spend time sometimes with this.  but, as educators - it's well worth it, imo.

[lenkaolenka]

i tend to think this system is especially invaluable to children because if you learn this EARLY - then it's no big deal to learn.  the kodaly book 'sound thinking' is really a great explaination of all this - with a lot of tunes and ideas for kids. 

as you get older - you just don't want to spend time sometimes with this.  but, as educators - it's well worth it, imo.

Yes, Kodaly himself was in fact Russian music school graduate and Theory and Solfeggio teacher. He knew and abderstood the importance of voice involvement in music learning process like no one else. He was also a composer, who was traveling from village to village collecting old folk songs, because they are true foundation of music language development.

That very time the idea of mass music education was very popular. The leaders of such ideas saw only way to do it – through choir singing (Kodaly), smart listening (Kabalevsky) and group instrument playing  (Orff). Kodaly created his relative system in order to teach musically illiterate choir members to sing new songs without reading notation by hands' signs of conductors.
   

[will]

Will, yesterday I had THREE recitals. Sorry for delay!

Lenka – no need to apologize, you are doing me the favor! As long as I get it eventually.

Before I will be able to do anything with the song, you may download free demos of our games that teaches both ABC and Do Re Mi Alphabet. Do you want me to give you these links?

That's OK I know the links. I have downloaded some demos and have only just got them working. However the programs may not be of much use if I adopt different solfege syllables.

About the idea: I think it is BRILLIANT!

  These may not be the names I settle on, I'm still going to play around with them a bit and work out what to do with sharps and flats. Any ideas how to improve the new syllables or things to take into consideration?
It would be best to get a singer who is familiar with solfege to design the new syllables. Unfortunately I do not know any singers or anyone familiar with solfege so any help is much appreciated.

[will]

Kodaly created his relative system in order to teach musically illiterate choir members to sing new songs without reading notation by hands' signs of conductors.

Yes, but movable DO may have been fine for the choir. The extra step of working out how to create a certain pitch, by pushing the correct piano key, is not present when singing.

BTW, I am still not totally convinced of the superiority of fixed DO over movable DO. A degree of both absolute and relative thinking takes place in both systems. But what works better – singing the absolute note names while also thinking relatively, or singing notes relatively while also thinking about the absolute note names? 

[danny elfboy]

I'm convinced that you two are not talking about ear-training or mixing ear-training with other things. It's pretty confusing 

Here is another suggestion for absolute ear-training (non theoric ear-training) which I have seen working great for people of all levels and age countless times

Take a mic
Record yourself playing with the right hand only playing only thirds (either with the small three note scale or without) starting from all the notes of the chromatic scale: C-E, Bb-D, Eb-G and so on (leaving some pause between each interval)

Then either take the audio tape of the file created and name it "3rds"
Then everyday play the tape or the file and sing the intervals as they play

Do this for all intervals and with daily consistence for 3 months at least ... and you will see you'll become subconsciously able to identify intervals without thinking and from whatever source (including atonal music)

[will]

I'm convinced that you two are not talking about ear-training or mixing ear-training with other things. It's pretty confusing 

Your confusion is warranted. Maybe this link will help - https://www.jomarpress.com/nagel/articles/Solfeg.html

Here is another suggestion for absolute ear-training (non theoric ear-training) which I have seen working great for people of all levels and age countless times

Take a mic
Record yourself playing with the right hand only playing only thirds (either with the small three note scale or without) starting from all the notes of the chromatic scale: C-E, Bb-D, Eb-G and so on (leaving some pause between each interval)

Then either take the audio tape of the file created and name it "3rds"
Then everyday play the tape or the file and sing the intervals as they play

Do this for all intervals and with daily consistence for 3 months at least ... and you will see you'll become subconsciously able to identify intervals without thinking and from whatever source (including atonal music)

I understand what you mean and am adopting it into my training. Thanks Danny.