practice tips for any of the pieces in online piano open 2007

[pianistimo]

ok.  here i am.  printing out mazeppa #4  egads!  three staves on page two i see. 

first of all...somebody help me with page one.  i see lots of arpeggiated double forte chords here.  well, i just played them - and they're actually not that bad.

[pianistimo]

next question:  can somebody just give me the fingering for the cadenza part on the first page.  i have limited time.  i just want the best one.

[nicco]

ehmm...is anybody actually participating in this "competition"? Looks like susan is competing with herself.

[quantum]

Go team susan!!!!

[pianistimo]

what about iumonito, brahmsian, arensky, liszt-essence, nanabush, and a couple of others i thought?!

ok.  here's my fingering for this cadenza.  somebody try it and tell me yes or no:

rh starting on 'a' 123543211231235543212123412354321  (1st line)

(2nd line) 12312355432121234123543211231235543212123412354321

(3rd line) 12312345345314321321432132143213214321321432132


lh starting on 'a' 543123455432131123454543213212345

(2nd line) 543213112345454321321234554321321123454543213212345

(3rd line) 54321321431312341231234123123412312341231234

basically it's using a lot of slides from black to white notes with thumb to thumb and pinky to pinky.

[pianistimo]

any tips on the chopin ballade? 

say - that thalberg-mozart piece is easy!  i've done a lot of vocal stuff - so that isn't bad.  but, wow - this chopin ballade is loooonng.  but, very beautiful.  can i just play half of it?  ok.  no.  well...the first half will be good and the second bad.

now - who wants any help with the un sospiro.  i had a teacher on this one and it worked out fantastic - because it's like a little puzzle and when you have really good fingering - you can just whiz through this piece like nothing.  i'm serious.  this fingering is to die for (from jean-paul billaud). 

[pianistimo]

apparently christina kiss plays this really well and she's been playing all liszt in nyc somewhere's.  she's a very little lady - but apparently plays it very well.

ok.  un sospiro (the sigh) or 'etude de concert no. 3'

first of all - you gotta have the 'wave.'  that means you undulate with each arpeggio up and down and simultaneously gradually get louder on the second and third arpeggiation and softer on the fourth one again.  this is hard to do until you 'get it.'

now, the fingering i have for the first two measures continues pretty much throughout unless you have another chord arpeggiated.  it is:

lh 5321 rh 1245421 lh 1235 rh 1245421 lh ...

in the next section (the cantando - or singing voice line) the top notes can be taken variously by whatever fingers you like - but i tend to stick with '3.'  as my teacher said - it is a strong finger and gives the 'singing' that you want.

now, when you get to the next page try

lh 5421  rh 1235321 ...  next measure lh 5421  rh 124 crossover lh 3 rh 421 lh 1235321

rh 125 crossover lh 3  rh 521  lh 123

the next measure (measure 11) is really important to have a good fingering:

try in the rh 4 3 4 grace note 2  5 poco rit 3  4 3.  the 3 ending on the a tempo
(the switch from 4 to 2 on the grace note is helpful)

here's the reason:  you can now take the rh thumb and play 1 to 2 on the Db and F  on the last half of first beat of measure 11 (going up and down).  similarly with th e 5 on the high F with the rh - you can now take the C, Gb and Ab with the rh 123 fingers (up and down). 

try it!  you'll like it.

[pianistimo]

con't. 
 sorry about what i wrote here previously - as i got ahead of myself.

at measure 12 - you have patterns of seven sixteenth notes up and down  (lh and rh alternating)

lh 5321  rh 1245421  lh 1235321 rh 1245421  lh 123 

measure 13 lh 5321  rh 124   now HERE is the place to really be careful about timing.  you have seven sixteenth notes in the left hand.  when you want to place the second of the octave notes within that group of seven - wait until you have played three of the beats and then play the rh note fairly quickly.  so the first groupof notes on beat two is LH (Ab) RH (F) RH (Db)  LH (in treble clef high Ab).

i have the first of the sempre dolce grazioso melody as two notes with LH  then two notes with RH  23  then two notes with LH 32 and then two notes with RH 23...

you can use a sort of modified 'rainbow' as you dance from the first of the two notes to the second.  or, if you prefer - a straight across 'zip.'  but, always timed to correspond AFTER the first three of seven arpeggiated notes (unless there are eight notes in the arpeggio later).

[pianistimo]

a very important note:  always ALWAYS write the rh fingering above the notes and the lh fingering below.

this is for anyone who doesn't write that much fingering in their music.  if you do it this way , you'll never get confused as to which hand takes what.  when you are changing fingering from what the book has written - take a permanent black marker or a pencil and completely dot out the fingering so you won't be looking at two at once.  that might get a bit confusing.

[pianistimo]

now - for all this stuff i'm giving you -- i am hoping for some similar advice on the durn chopin ballade #4 which i've never worked.  (i have however worked #2). 

going on measure seventeen - well actually backtracking just a bit.  notice in measure 14-16 you have mostly seven sixteenth note patterns.  this means when you play the melody line octaves - you're going to wait for three of those sixteenth notes before you play the second higher note. 

con't for measures 16 - 17. now measure 18 you can help 'set yourself up' for the arpeggios on beat three and four by playing the rh 123 ONLY the first time and coming back down on the F Db and Ab with 521.  this sets you up for playing the modulated part with the Fb's. 
 

[le_poete_mourant]

who was in charge of picking these pieces anyway?  doesn't seem very democratic to me.  seems pretty ridiculous since only a handful of people here are going to be able to play them moderately well.   

[pianistimo]

with this fingering ANYBODY can play un sospiro.  maybe not in two weeks - but in three months you'll have figured out the most of it.

btw, i only have played two of the pieces (or so) on iumonitos list.  i just printed out four pieces yesterday that i have never played.  i like his list a lot because it is good repertoire for learning stuff.  rhythms, and how to play vocal music even.

iumonito could be my teacher for as good as he picks repertoire.  i really like everything so far - even though some of it is going to be hard.  the chopin is pages and pages.  i've never seen it in my life although i have heard it.  i played another ballade.  but i'm going to attempt as much as i can of it.

[pianistimo]

measure 19 -the arpeggios go into groups of eight sixteenth notes.   so you have approx. three sixteenth notes (or two to each triplet note until the next two beats (with groups of seven sixteenth notes) where you have slightly over three sixteenth notes to each triplet. 

m 19 lh fingering:  5212  rh 1235 (crossover with lh 3) rh 5321 lh 1235421  rh 123 321 lh124

the hands cross over to play the triplets with first LH then RH then LH then RH - alternating.

measure 21:  lh 53213121...(back down)   521321  fermata   32124

here, the rhythm of arpeggiation is SIX - so you have an equal two sixteenth notes per right hand note.

DRAW LINES DOWN THROUGH STAVE FROM RH TO LH TO SEE WHERE THEY FIT IN ARPEGGIATION.  also - write in how many groups of notes you have (whether 8 or 7 or 6).

now - in measure 22 - take the first note you see after the treble clef shows up in bass clef (C#) and WRITE IT IN in the treble clef above the A (lower note).  that way you can take this note with your right hand.  much easier!

[pianistimo]

part of the reason i'm putting all this here is to make it easier for people who haven't played un sospiro before.  it's not terribly hard once you get all the intricacies of the fingering worked out.  then, it's just a matter of practicing it over and over.

ok.  we have rh hand melody at measures 22 - 23  whilst the left hand arp. fingering is :  52142 1 (on C#) 23 123 53213 123 123 (or whatever you want to use there)

now, in measure 24 the arp. grouping changes from 6 sixteenth notes to 7 on third and fourth beat.  mark it!

lh fingering: 52132  (here you DO switch hands) rh 4213 -from C# to C#   lh 12521   rh 1245  lh 3  rh 5421  lh 12

[pianistimo]

measure 25 you have the arpeggiation changing from groups of 7 to 8 on the third and fourth beats.  also, it reminds you to accelerate your playing here.  liszt was a master of composition.  measure 26 you have groups of 7 again. 

ok.  back to measure 25  - the fingering is lh 521 (with 3 in rh above on F#)   rh 1245 (lh crossover with 3)  rh 5421  lh 12 5321  rh 1235  (lh crossover 3) rh 5321  lh 123.

measure 25  grace note fingering 2 moving to 4 (C# to E)

lh:  5212  rh 1245421  lh 2125321  rh 1245421  lh 124

[pianistimo]

measure 27 pretty much keeps the rh in treble and lh in bass.

lh fingering:  532132123 123532132123123

measure 28 lh:  532132123123 532132123123

measure 29 lh:  521532123123 521  rh 1245421  lh 12  now this sets you up for picking up your hands and playing the octaves with rh on top notes as 323232  and lh on bottom octave notes with 232323. 

measure 31 you have FOUR sixteenth notes for the first beat and then after that SIX.  DRAW LINES DOWN THROUGH BOTH STAVES ON MAIN BEATS. 

measure 32 you have an unusal affair - there are FOUR sixteenth note groups alternated by six.  four/six/four/six  AGAIN - DRAW LINES DOWN STAVES ON MAIN BEATS.

this really helps to visualize it a lot - and reminds you to play the notes faster where indicated.  'impetuoso'

[pianistimo]

measure 34:

still alternates between first group of four and last groups in six.

right under the accelerando marking (beats 2 and 3 of measure 37) you'll want to use rh 245 on Fx C# E, and lh 521  rh 12 4-5   lh 521  rh 12 45  lh 532  rh on first two notes of cadenza 21...

cadenza hands together

rh 2345432132143214321235  4321321432143212354321 3214321432123543 1235431235431235432121324354

lh 4321234123131231314321234123 131231314321234123 13123131432121432121 4321214321212345342312  (then two last chords)

[dnephi]

Thanks for fingering all of that, although I'm not going to use it.  Wow....

[pianistimo]

i didn't actually do it - my teacher did.  but, it made playing this piece a lot easier.  this was before i understood the reasoning behind using certain fingering.  once you get some pieces professionally fingered - you can see how to use it for other pieces (as you already do).

i don't rely so much on my teachers anymore.  well, i don't even have a teacher currently.  but, i can look back to these pieces to get ideas for fingering things to make it much more easily playable.

[iumonito]

who was in charge of picking these pieces anyway?  doesn't seem very democratic to me.  seems pretty ridiculous since only a handful of people here are going to be able to play them moderately well.   

Querendo invenietis.

The system for piece selection is in flux.  The one for January was picked in a poll.  I am for an open format, but the votes are not there (at least there were not for January).

Should you be interested, go ahead and propose a piece for February.  We collectively have not voted on what is being played in February.

Democracy requires attention.  I expect it of you, now that you have complained.   

Some Gottschalk?

[pianistimo]

no.  no gottschalk.  i hate it when people change things.  keep the list.  we voted in january.  i've already printed out pages and pages.  half the stuff i've never seen - but now have been practicing it for several days.  are you saying this is all for nothing.

iumonito - make a stand.  say we voted in january for the year.  we are sticking with the pieces. 

next year - i get to pick them all:

they are as follows:

paganini variations by brahms
mussorgsky's pictures at an exhibition
dvorak's poetic moods
a piano concerto of your choice
some alkan
some sorabji
some barber (barber nocturne)
3 etudes of chopin
the hardest piece that liszt wrote
schumann's hardest piece
ahinton's transcription of schumann's whatever it was
and 3 pieces by leroy anderson (sleigh ride, the sycopated clock, and whatever else) or your favorite holiday music along with an operatic transcription.

ok. i'm joking.  but - half serious.  i mean - i need some motivation to get this piano concerto learned. 

[iumonito]

 

Well, Susan, it is not for naught.  It is good for you to read L'Isle Joyeuse, Voi che sapete, and Chopin's ballade 4, regardless of the Online Piano Open.  If I had more time, I would definitely jump on the Un Sospiro wagon (I will be reading the Siloti revision this weekend, so who knows, if it goes easy I'll post).

If this is going to take hold, I think it has to incorporate the input of all interested.

Again, open format obviates all the choosing and you this me that.

If it is important for you, I'll also stick to the list and we can have a mano a mano parallel to whatever the group veers to.

Pictures at an exhibition sounds great.

[pianistimo]

what!  you are not playing un sospiro?  oh well.  no matter.  mine **.  it is truly horrific after all these years.  and, yet - i must prove myself against this mountain of notes.  i will record a version of my own at half speed.  yes.  or, the first part will be like the wind and the end will slow gradually down to a comfortable armchair wipeout.

but, the cadenzas came back to me today.  i was just playing them - and then i though' oh, yes. these are the notes.' 

ok. so - i play debussy and un sospiro tonight or tommorrow or the weekend.  maybe weeked would be better job - but i have a feeling my husband is going to be wanting this or that - because his eye is getting operated on tommorrow.  so, probably tonight i'll record.

just for fun - i'm going to post the thalberg-mozart, too.  it's pretty easy. maybe i agree - something harder for february.  let's move the chopin up.  the fourth ballade.  that will put a fire under me.

ps i had to look up mano a mano as i thought it meant one to one.  but, the definition says to hand something to someone in person.  same thing?  so - either way - you can hand it to me in person - or we'll make our own thread and have a sort of wierd competition between a real piano and a real recording set up and sythesizer.  i think you're going to win hands down - but i don't care.  it's good practice for me.

[jazzyprof]

Hey Susan, thanks for all the great fingering suggestions and practice tips for Un Sospiro.  What a labor of love!  Now I'm motivated to go learn the piece.  You could be my teacher...

[pianistimo]

i think we all learn from each other.  i learned this fingering from MY teacher - so it's really not mine.  in fact, i was thinking today - i wish i could have had another 10 years with the guy.  but, he was really good and had to move on.  i think he and his wife (also a professor of music) teach in virginia now.  they are both professional pianists and i really admired their perfection in working out 'details' ahead of time.  of course, fingering is just the tip of the iceberg as you know - but hey, it helps a lot, right!  some fingering is just for certain hand sizes - but this one seems to fit most.

[nanabush]

oh man, the only piece I can play on the list so far is the Bach P/F    that's probably going to be one of the only things I'll be submitting, because I still have a full plate of other stuff, none of which is there haha.  I'll probably be doing more of the later ones, like after june, because I have a really important exam around then.  Some of these, like Mazeppa, are beyond me... I'm guessing that each 'month' is a competition in it's own?  There is no way that most people on this forum, except those who know all of these pieces, will be able to learn all of this during the year.  I liked the idea of maybe "a chopin etude" or even "a set of chopin preludes ~ 10 minutes" or something like 2 scarlatti sonatas.  It's so much more difficult when there's distinct pieces chosen... anyways enuf of this rant, I think it should be a bit less specific.

[dnephi]

Randomly any tips on the Mazeppa?  I think there it just boils down to extreme amounts of slow practice to play such fingerwork.

[pianistimo]

i wrote out my cadenza fingering for that at the top. check it and see if it works.  i'll try to work a little tommorrow.  this is fun when other people are playing the same things.  i tend to just go for easy stuff when noone's listening.  my family couldn't care less about mazeppa.  i could spend hours and they'd just be 'oh.  that's nice.' 

[pianistimo]

ok on unsospiro - we have at measure 38  rh 5 to start on A moving to 4 on G#  after this the lh and rh alternate again with 24 in both hands.

the bass clef arpeggios are lh 521 rh 124...  until measure 39 second beat lh 521 rh 1235...

measure 40 (top of next page) rh 24  and alternating again.  you can write out the sixteenth note groups above or intbetween measure to keep track of them. they move from six sixteeth notes to seven in measure 41.

the lh in measure 40 is 5321 rh 1245...  measure 43 lh 5321  rh 1...5  m.44 5421  and you use 421 allthe way to measure 46

[pianistimo]

measure 46 (leggierissimo volante) we have a little trick that makes this part MUCH easier.  take the D#'s in the treble clef (in stave) within the third and fourth beats and make them LEFT HAND notes.  so you can play them with your thumb!

do the same for the third and fourth beats of the next measure. 

[pianistimo]

there must be somebody here who has worked mazeppa and has some hints.