clustered note glissando prokofiev 3rd concerto last movement

[atthecorner]

I ask the obvious question... How do folks play those pesky passages that sound like
glissandos but are written as scalar two notes clusters? My International edition actually
has a fingering, but no recording I have ever heard sounds like that.

Anyone care to share?

Thanks,

[apion]

My International edition actually has a fingering, but no recording I have ever heard sounds like that.

I've seen performances and videos where some pianists play this as straight glissandi (and, therefore, they are cheating), and others where the pianists play this in "clusters" as Prokofiev wrote.

Either way, the resulting sound is nearly identical.

Check out the Argerich/Davis video on Youtube (assuming that it's still available) and try to discern how the Goddess plays it! 

[apion]

Well, I just checked out the Argerich video on Youtube, and she definitely uses the "scaled cluster" fingering rather than the standard glissando.  I can't tell if she uses the same two-note clusters as indicated by Prokofiev, but it sounds great.

[atthecorner]

1. Thanks for the pointer. I hold youtube in higher esteem at this point.
It's great that there is a performance there to observe in detail ( and others). And that it is not "perfection". It is remarkably instructive to see the orchestra get out of sync brielfy and how they get back together. I am slowly recovering perfection addict.

2. I agree that she uses the cluster approach, between what glimpses one gets of her  hands and her shoulders.

So...
I sat down at the piano and considered again. One great aspect of Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, and Prokofieff and probably other pianist composers is how approaches to challenging playing is revealed in their writing.

A gliss seems reckless, and with the accent hard to hit.

I was exploring a three position variation on the International (Prokofiev?) fingering.
Left-right-left up, right-left-right down.

The Argerich video emphsized the architecture of the Prokofiev approach. At speed, one's fingers naturely group into the clusters as written, with the added benefit that it enables an almost whip like attack on the accent with the fifth finger. One always watches out for fifth
finger injury. In this case, the gesture looks (and feels) well supported. Finally the hand
positions are essentially the same up and down, simplifying accurate speed.

One last detail:  There are three instances of this passage. The given finger starts on
left fourth finger in one case, and left fifth in two case. At this point I don't see any reason
to start on left fifth. As I said that's a detail and it looks insignificant to me.

 Thanks again

[apion]

with the added benefit that it enables an almost whip like attack on the accent with the fifth finger.

Yes, and I can only assume that was prokofiev's intent -- a tightly controlled "whip" approach...