Chopin's maturation as a composer

[aaron_ginn]

Lete me preface this by saying I'm no musical historian, so what I say may be completely off-base.

I've been listening to a lot of Chopin lately since I'm learning two of his works right now.  It seems to me that more than any other composer I am familiar with, Chopin showed very little maturation as a composer.  Now, I don't mean that his works are bad.  I'm saying his style of composition seems fully-formed even from his early works.  Some of his earliest pieces seem to be among his most mature works.  I'm thinking in particular of his early nocturnes, the Op. 18 Waltz, the Op. 10 etudes, among others.  Certainly, he had many great works throughout his life, but even his early works display an unusual mature style.  Contrast this with Beethoven or Brahms, for example.  Their late works are very different from their earliest works.

Now, I suppose that some of this is attributable to the fact that Chopin died at a very early age.  Perhaps he would have done amazing things of which we can't even comprehend had he lived until 60.  Still, Chopin seems to be somewhat of an anomoly to me.

Agree or disagree?

[steve jones]

I have heard many people say this kind of thing.

While I can definately see the reason in their argument, I think that they miss one very fundamental point - many of Chopin's works were in constant evolution, and it is impossible to date when they were conceived! So to compare his early Op's to his later ones would be insufficent a method with which to gauge his development.

But even so, it cant be ignored that Chopin didnt seem to go through the massive changes of some of his contemparies. Take Liszt for example!

SJ

[molto-marcato]

Chopin was a true genius. I always wondered what world would be like if he would have lived 20 years longer. Imagine 1 or two mor sets of etudes  .

[steve jones]

In which case, its probably for the best that he didnt - Im having enough trouble with the first two sets!

SJ

[kghayesh]

Chopin is one of the composers who you know their music the moment you hear just one bar of it. Other composers who are like this are Mozart for example.

One of the things that make me think that Chopin is lacking a bit in maturation is the fact that he hardly composed any works that are not for piano solo ! It is so strange that a composer with the geniousity of Chopin didn't compose any orchestral work. I don't know whether it was because he didn't want to or he didn't feel he can compose orchestral works.

I think it is just a big question for music historians..... Why didn't Chopin compose any orchestral works??

[aaron_ginn]

Chopin is one of the composers who you know their music the moment you hear just one bar of it. Other composers who are like this are Mozart for example.

One of the things that make me think that Chopin is lacking a bit in maturation is the fact that he hardly composed any works that are not for piano solo ! It is so strange that a composer with the geniousity of Chopin didn't compose any orchestral work. I don't know whether it was because he didn't want to or he didn't feel he can compose orchestral works.

I think it is just a big question for music historians..... Why didn't Chopin compose any orchestral works??

He composed two piano concertos.  I think those qualify as orchestral works.

[steve jones]

Chopin is one of the composers who you know their music the moment you hear just one bar of it. Other composers who are like this are Mozart for example.

One of the things that make me think that Chopin is lacking a bit in maturation is the fact that he hardly composed any works that are not for piano solo ! It is so strange that a composer with the geniousity of Chopin didn't compose any orchestral work. I don't know whether it was because he didn't want to or he didn't feel he can compose orchestral works.

I think it is just a big question for music historians..... Why didn't Chopin compose any orchestral works??

That is one question I would LOVE to ask the man!

As it is, the question would be best answered by a musicial historian and Chopin biographer, I guess. But there seem to be some quite conflicting views on 'Chopin the man' dont there?

My guess would be that his style of composition was such that it revolved almost entirely around piano improvisation, and as a result he never focused sufficient on the orchestra to write for it. Perhaps he was so smitten with the keyboard that he never even wanted to compose orchestral works?

Dont forget, he wasnt an old man when he died. Maybe he had planned to explore the orchestra further but never had chance?

SJ

[kghayesh]

He composed two piano concertos.  I think those qualify as orchestral works.

No I don't qualify those as orchestral works. These are works for the piano mainly where the orchestra is in the background and mainly used for accompanying. An orchestral work is a symphony for example, where the instruments of the orchesetra are exploited and orchestrated.

[aaron_ginn]

No I don't qualify those as orchestral works. These are works for the piano mainly where the orchestra is in the background and mainly used for accompanying. An orchestral work is a symphony for example, where the instruments of the orchesetra are exploited and orchestrated.

Of course they are orchestral works.  An orchestral work is one in which an orchestra is used.  The fact that the orchestra is there to accompany the piano is largely irrelevant.  The composer of a concerto still needs to understand how to write for each instrument and how they need to interact with each other.

By your definition, what works other than symphonies would you classify as orchestral works?  What about a mass?  In a mass, the orchestra is present mainly to accompany the vocalists, but I doubt anyone would argue that the Missa Solemnis does not qualify as an orchestral work.

[pianistimo]

agreed with steve jones about the constantly evolving nature of chopin.  he started blending forms and ended with his polonaise-fantasy. that is a very creative way to make a new form.  to blend them.  i found a really interesting article on chopin's genius in creating forms.  even with etudes - they are not simple etudes for practice - but works of art!  who, besides liszt, could do this!  this was creative and full of genius.  also, each etude works such specific things on such a high level in piano technique.  before chopin's time - we had minor technical things worked (scalular passages, etc).  now, we are talking about flying.  flying over the keys in huge leaps and bounds. 

i used to be, frankly, a chopin-hater.  i've become 'converted' to chopin.  i think you have to mature and let his music mature on you.  even the simplest preludes are more complicated than they look at first glance.  his music has about 3-4 levels of depth - just as with great art.

[liszt-essence]

I still count much of Chopin's work among the best compostions for piano ever written.

The beauty.. the grace.. the passion.. the power.. the simplicty and complexity in his works are just astounding. They are all accounted for..

His contrapunctional style is like a golden formula..

Yes I love Chopin 

[ramseytheii]

Of course they are orchestral works.  An orchestral work is one in which an orchestra is used.  The fact that the orchestra is there to accompany the piano is largely irrelevant.  The composer of a concerto still needs to understand how to write for each instrument and how they need to interact with each other.

By your definition, what works other than symphonies would you classify as orchestral works?  What about a mass?  In a mass, the orchestra is present mainly to accompany the vocalists, but I doubt anyone would argue that the Missa Solemnis does not qualify as an orchestral work.

Literally speaking you may be right, but I would think the usage of "orchestral work" usually confines the meaning to a work featuring the orchestra.  A Chopin concerto would be much more accurately called a... concerto.  Your example, a mass, if it had an orchestra, would be a mass with orchestra, but the Mass would come first, and the orchestra second.

Technically speaking Chopin composed "works" for the orchestra to play, but they are first and foremost piano works.

Walter Ramsey