Relationships

[henrah]

Do they turn out better if they have a friendship base to begin with? Or is it best to let a friendship develop whilst in a relationship?

Thoughts and opinions from either sex will be appreciated,
Henrah

[beethoven2]

I think that if you develop a strong friendship first, it will create a firm base for your relationship.

[imbetter]

I think that if you develop a strong friendship first, it will create a firm base for your relationship.

i agree

[le_poete_mourant]

this is true. 

Unfortunately it also makes it more painful when you break up. 

You should know the person fairly well, but not well enough that if things don't work out and you end up losing a friend, you will look back at it with regret.  It's easier to let go when it's not someone you've known for ages, deeply like that. 

A serious relationship that goes beyond friendship and starts to go into the physical realm of "love" and the like can be one of the most intense relationships there is. 

I think there should be a balance between the two: it helps to know the person fairly well before you jump into anything, but you also want to leave some room to let your understanding of each other grow. 

I've been on both sides of this line.  About a month ago, I went through a breakup with a woman who I cared about a great deal.   But, I only knew her for a few months before I started dating her.  So it wasn't like we were close friends.  This, I think made it easier to deal with, because there wasn't as much to lose here.  We both understand that we're less of friends to each other than we were physical partners.  The connection wasn't so strong.  It still saddens me that we had to end this way, but it isn't as difficult as the previous relationship. 

Before this, I dated a very good friend of mine.  We were really close, we knew each other up and down, we were just tight.  And then we decided to take it to the next level.  But when it ended, it ended very nastily.  There were fights, yelling, name-calling, and just downright unpleasantness.  I came out of it feeling that I had made a huge mistake by doing this, and I lost a good friend in the process. 

When I've tried dating people I don't know so well, it hasn't worked out great.  That's one to cross off right off the bat. 

[ada]

I have been in a relationship for a long time, longer than is probably decent.

Nonetheless we share a life and finances and offspring and political views and a house. However, we do have different professions and talents.

When we first met we were in a share household, then we became best mates, then lovers, then parents and finally partners.

Because we always lived in the same house, starting out as flatmates, we have never been on a "date".

We er, consumated, our relationship after a wild party one night and have never looked back. There were never any expectations, so there was never any disappointment.  So I'd have to vouch for the friends approach to starting a relationship, though turning a long standing friendship into something else can be fraught.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is healthy to be with one person for so long but it kind of works, so as they say, if it aint broken....

[mycrabface]

When you meet a person and get engaged three years later and marry him another three years later, its too soon. In some cases, the husband turns out to be a drunkard abuser

[ahinton]

When you meet a person and get engaged three years later and marry him another three years later, its too soon. In some cases, the husband turns out to be a drunkard abuser

Is it really possible to generalise in this way and to such an extent? - a case-by-case-based assessment would surely seem to be a more plausible approach. What (if any) is the special significance that you appear to attach to the three-year periods? - and how long, in your estimation, would be long enough to ensure avoidance of the kinds of risk to which you refer - and on what basis?

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

Alistair, I'm guessing that mycrabface is talking from her own experience. But I would also like to know the answer to your question: how long would you recommend knowing someone before getting married mycrabface?



I started this topic because I am confused on whether to let a friendship between me and 'this girl' (don't let my naming her 'this girl' demean her or lessen her importance in anyway) grow or to get into a relationship as soon as possible and let it grow from there. We have a very basic friendship in that it's more than after just meeting her. However I would like to get to know her a bit better. What would you say to spending some alone time with her (which I've planned to happen before or after watching the Garfield movie together - we both love cats) and getting to know each other with the purpose of creating a relationship afterwards?

I've heard so many things about women and what they want and what they don't want that some of the things are contradictory. One of the sayings that stuck with me is: women want to be pursued. Women here on the forum, can you confirm this? I've decided to slow down my actions and let things unfold because I've found that when I try to do things myself I get stupid and act foolishly. Should I get straight to the point and pursue a relationship with her fearing that she might lose interest?

Anyway, it's her birthday next weekend and I've only known her since new years. Do you think that would be a good time to propose the relationship to her, or at least give major hints to one? lol I'm so jittery whilst writing this and it's eating me up so much that I lost so much time in my general studies exam this morning thinking about it and trying to concentrate on the paper.


I'm so confused!!
Henrah

[pianowolfi]

Sorry Henrah, I can't give a concrete advice on this, I just want to wish you good luck with this relationship! How ever it may be.

[m1469]

Hi, Henrah.  Well, there's really no reason to be so confused since women are generally simple folk  .  

Okay, but on a serious note.  I am not going to claim to know what women want, because I really haven't the first idea what other women want since everybody is different and I have never made it a life-practice to sit around talking with other women about what we want from men.  

I know what I personally like and want, and what things make my head spin, but, I have a hunch that these things are not considered "normal" in many respects.  So, the moral of my story is to find out what works for her, specifically.  If that means it takes a while, then so be it (though it may not). However, I would recommend letting her know, somehow, that you are indeed interested in her as an individual (though I haven't the first idea on what would be the best way to do that since I don't know her at all -- that's your job  ). 

I will say that I have always been a lady with guy friends.   Some of these friendships have turned into something "more" (if you could really call it more -- meaning, friendship is something of the greatest beauty to me), and some of them have not.  My husband and I started off as friends in all respects and dated (without living together, and so on  ) for 6 years before getting married -- which was heavily my choice.  But, under different circumstances, that time-frame of dating may have also been very different.

So, I would recommend learning about her, individually, instead of worrying about how the relationship "should" go (afterall, you are wondering whether friendship will work in this case specifically, right ?).  Figure out what makes her tick as an individual, and whatever label you give that time (friendship, dating, etc), I don't think it will hurt your relationship with this particular woman (nor any possible future women  ) to do your proper observing and learning.


m1469

[pianistimo]

henrah, don't lose time over your general studies exam over a girl's birthday.  it's not worth it.  whether you propose one thing or another - it really makes little difference.  sorry to be so nonchalant.  after years of being a woman (i hope i'm never a man) - i can tell you - the thing that matters most is being able to support your family without stress.

to do that - you need an education.  to do that - you need to forget about girls completely - excepting close friends that are merely close friends.  and, you can still go out etc etc on friday nights but - don't let them think anything more than friendship.  if they can't hang on - they're not the one for you.  the one that hangs on despite what she thinks or doesn't think you are going to do - is the one that truly loves you for who you are.  not who she wants you to be - or what she wants you to be.

first care about who YOU want to be.  what you can offer someone else.  i think men look for this in women when they are past say , 30.  you no longer look only for the good looking 'chicks' but the ones that will not make huge financial blunders with your joint accounts.  this is a huge one!  finances.  watch to see how the girl saves/spends her money.  someday she may do this with yours.

also, do you want children someday.  is she scared to touch babies?  does she freak out.  you don't want someone having a complete mental breakdown over the first child you produce.  maybe someone who is also pursuing an education - in whatever - a doctor for that matter - and will treat your children with respect and kindness and take care of their needs/health/diet.  and, someone halfway organized.  i mean - you can't run a household and not find things (speaking to self).  it takes a lot of preparation.

also, start asking questions to your parents about what they would find agreeable in a girl.  i mean, parents usually know you better than anyone.  and, if they get along with her - that's kind of a big plus - because family dinners can get obnoxious with someone who doesn't fit.  if she really likes your mom and dad - that's a sign, too that she'll be respectful and caring towards those that you love.  and, also if you like her parents.  i mean- it's true about the saying 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.'

sorry for all this longwinded advice.  i give stuff like this to my kids all the time.  they roll their eyes and do what they want.  but, at least i give them ideas of what 'i would do.'  actually, neither of my older kids is dating yet -but with other decisions they are fairly independent.

[thalbergmad]

Find out if she is any good in the sack before entering into a relationship.

Thal

[henrah]

Wolfi: thanks

m1469: great advice, thanks!

Pianistimo: you're scaring me    I'm not thinking about those things right now, and I'd rather not think about them for a while yet. I'm a young'un, only 18! When I met her she instantly caught my attention, and when I was told that she liked me I thought I'd pursue a relationship to advance myself as a person. The last time I heard a girl liked me I was too shy and lacked confidence in myself to do anything about it. I realised after a year or so that I made a big mistake, so I plucked up the courage to talk to her and found out that she had gotten over me. She had spent all that time convincing herself that nothing would happen, whilst I hid away from my true feelings. So after being told a couple of weeks ago that this girl liked me, I wanted to be sure that she knew I liked her too. I am doing this for myself, I am putting myself first when other times I haven't. I think I'm entitled to a bit of selfishness after all this selflessness. I believe that a healthy balance between the two is needed in order to be happy: I don't think a person could be truly happy if they were 100% either way.

Also, I feel that being in a relationship will help with my education. I've been getting quite depressed over not doing work, and getting into vicious circles that only recently have I ended. Still they run, not abolished completely. I feel that being in a relationship will spur me on, and introduce me to areas I'm unfamiliar with and therefore increase the number of life activities I wish to be happy in. This is all in the pursuit of happiness.

I feel I know what to do now. Thankyou guys, you've been a great help. Even you susan. Though I don't favour your advice now, it will definately stay with me.
Henrah

[pianistimo]

let me tell you from experience.  you're going to get hurt.  if that's ok.  then - go for it.  but, if you want to save all the pieces of your heart for one special person - save it. 

this is how it goes.  you tell the girl you're mad about her - and treat her well.  she thinks you're too easy.  she leaves you for another.

you play hard to get and don't show all your cards.  still treat her well -but take her out once a month instead of five times a week.  (this will help on the homework side, too).  she'll be begging for more.

ps this will allow your once a month dates to be really special instead of five times to dairy queen.  not saying that's where you'd take her anyway - but you know - if a girl sees some effort put into the relationship...it's a comparative thing.  also, i think girls like to see creativity in where one goes.

pss summer is the best time for 'best friends.'  put some blinders on and make college worth your while.

[le_poete_mourant]

let me tell you from experience.  you're going to get hurt.  if that's ok.  then - go for it.  but, if you want to save all the pieces of your heart for one special person - save it. 

Well, I think that's a load of rubbish.  In the end, we all are going to get hurt, whether it is a breakup or a (ultimately) death.  Don't let the fear of getting hurt hold you back.  Don't dither about thinking that you're saving your heart for the right person -- you'll never know if you don't take a chance. 

People's hearts heal, to a certain extent.  I don't think we ever quite get over somebody, but it's what we get out of these relationships, what we learn, that makes it even better next time around.

pss summer is the best time for 'best friends.'  put some blinders on and make college worth your while.

Relationships are easier in the summer.  It gets harder when you try to balance school in there too. 

[pianistimo]

taking chances doesn't have to be with your heart.  you can have some reserved feelings instead of laying everything out on the table to be ground into fine grains of sand.  i have a feeling that henrah has very deep feelings.  you don't want to find out the other person is using you for any particular reason at all of their choosing.  maintain some control in the relationship and don't be sucked along the path of least resistance.  i mean, for one - the girls that are worth having are not available all the time anyways.  if she never says no - consider she's got too much free time on her hands and isn't doing much with her time.  but, of course, beautiful women get away with this all the time.

imagine a few years down the road.  you are her sole entertainment.  if you don't perform - her life is miserable.  do you want someone so dependent?  what if ... she found a life outside of finding the perfect guy to bother?  then, you'd not worry if she liked you or she was the perfect one.  you'd hit it off by having things in common with music, or whatever subjects (photography) and would have something to TALK about.  unless of course - you don't want to talk.  this is getting very personal - but i'm at an age now - that if a man isn't interesting - he could be as cute as george clooney and if he was boring  i wouldn't give him a second look.  (unless it was a sneak look).  but, i find my husband extremely interesting to be around all the time.  we've been married now almost 22 years.  he has gotten more interesting instead of less.  i'm not sure what he thinks of me -although he spoils me rotten.  i think he keeps me as a sort of 'pet.'  i don't mean this in a bad way - but i mean - he makes most of the money, and i try to keep the house clean and the kids fed and everyone semi-happy. 

i think you have to think both 'functional' and 'beautiful' - meaning beautiful would be someone who sees you as you truly are and still loves you.  no 'put ons' or 'images' in ones' head.  they're happy with reality and still are excited by the person.  that you miss them terribly when they're gone and that you sort of obsess over them to the exclusion of any other single person on earth.

[henrah]

you can have some reserved feelings instead of laying everything out on the table to be ground into fine grains of sand. i have a feeling that henrah has very deep feelings.

I have always made it a habit to know if the other person feels the same way I do before I confess that I feel that way.

I don't think we ever quite get over somebody, but it's what we get out of these relationships, what we learn, that makes it even better next time around.

This is what I am looking for out of this relationship: experience. I have no idea if she'll be 'the one', and I don't want to think about searching for 'the one' just yet, so right now I just want a relationship for experience and the possibility of happiness, albeit if only for a short while. I mean, I'll be going off to University (hopefully) in September, so this relationship will be mainly during the summer. But it's best to know each other well before there are days we can spend together. Right now she's doing a course at a nearby college and I only get to see her at the weekends, so it's a good time to start off the relationship slowly.


I already know how she feels (or felt, I'm pretty sure she still feels that way from her body language when she's near me) so I'm just going to tell her that I'm interested in a relationship and would like to get to know her better, possibly over watching the Garfield movie, a good basis for a chat methinks.

Wish me luck,
Henrah

[lichristine]

relationship, then friendship afterwards.

it always sucks to lose a someone.
it sucks even worse if you lose a friend in the process.

unless you're of that cool rare breed where you can have a friendship, then try a relationship, and if it doesn't work out, you're still friends.
like me and my last ex!

[rebby]

i think you are right lichristine

[thalbergmad]

Don't let the fear of getting hurt hold you back.  Don't dither about thinking that you're saving your heart for the right person -- you'll never know if you don't take a chance. 

Indeed, faint heart never won fair lady.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, faint heart never won fair lady.

Thal

Or, to put it another way, "it ain't over until the fair lady faints"...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

for a summertime romance - we're not talking fair ladies.  we're talking easy overs.  eggs.  that is where dancing around a maypole comes in.  you dance - you fall in love - you fall out  of love.  summer's over.

[le_poete_mourant]

for a summertime romance - we're not talking fair ladies.  we're talking easy overs.  eggs.  that is where dancing around a maypole comes in.  you dance - you fall in love - you fall out  of love.  summer's over.

this is true.  but it's nice to have a bedmate when it gets cold.  and what about in norway?

[ahinton]

for a summertime romance - we're not talking fair ladies.  we're talking easy overs.  eggs.

That's another stage of it, surely?...

that is where dancing around a maypole comes in.

Here she goes again!...

you dance - you fall in love - you fall out  of love.  summer's over.

No. Well, I don't, anyway. Dance, I mean...

Best,

Alistair

[jakev2.0]

ahinton: would you like to form a (platonic) relationship with me? 

[pianistimo]

what about norway?  all those norwegian girls.  what's the problem?

[le_poete_mourant]

what about norway?  all those norwegian girls.  what's the problem?

Well, how long does summer really last up there?  It seems like you're getting cheated out of a longer summer relationship. 

[nicco]

Well, how long does summer really last up there?  It seems like you're getting cheated out of a longer summer relationship. 

We have great summers, but the length varies from year to year. It averages from around mid June to mid August.

[ahinton]

ahinton: would you like to form a (platonic) relationship with me? 

For what reason/s do you ask such a question?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

for a summertime romance - we're not talking fair ladies.  we're talking easy overs.  eggs.  that is where dancing around a maypole comes in.  you dance - you fall in love - you fall out  of love.  summer's over.

This conjures up visions of people dancing over eggs around maypoles and falling in and out and over; if that tiresome and messy prospect is really supposed to constitute a "summertime romance", then we'd all better steer well clear of such things, methinks. But then maybe they do things so differently in the Pennsylvanian Bible belt that I simply fail to understand something here, so maybe you can explain it from the Philadelphian standpoint. Is this the way the natives of your state traditionally waste good eggs at that time of year? - just as certain utterly stupid Brits waste perfectly good champagne by (a)shaking the bottle hard, uncorking it and then spraying the contents over fellow celebrants and/or (b) flinging the entire bottle against the side of a new seagoing vessel and watching it smash to smithereens as part of an inaugural process? And (dare I ask it?) was one of these occasions your initiation into the art of pole dancing? (and please do remember, before answering this, that it was you, not I, who raised the spectre of "dancing around the maypole" here)...

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

relationship, then friendship afterwards.

it always sucks to lose a someone.
it sucks even worse if you lose a friend in the process.

unless you're of that cool rare breed where you can have a friendship, then try a relationship, and if it doesn't work out, you're still friends.
like me and my last ex!

Well with my last ex we didn't know each other that well before we started going out, but now we're quite good friends. She's my only ex-girlfriend that I'm still friends with, though for a while afterwards it was odd. I think seeing her in another relationship did it for me, and now we're quite good friends.


Anyway, thanks for all the advice, and the random tangents to come back to
Henrah

[jakev2.0]

For what reason/s do you ask such a question?

Best,

Alistair

I thought we could forge an alliance of like-minded super-genieae. 

[ahinton]

I thought we could forge an alliance of like-minded super-genieae. 

Thank you for explaining that. "Like-minded", perhaps; the other description is certainly far too lofty to apply to me, however...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

I thought we could forge an alliance of like-minded super-genieae. 

Surely that's why we're all on Pianostreet

[mycrabface]

Alistair, I'm guessing that mycrabface is talking from her own experience. But I would also like to know the answer to your question: how long would you recommend knowing someone before getting married mycrabface?

Jeez I'm not married.. Hinton, I said in SOME cases. Of course I wouldn't generalize! I'm just mentioning what might happen. I would prefer getting married to someone I've known for many years, someone whom I can trust, and its okay if he gets angry because at least I know what its usually like when he's angry.

[gilad]

Elie Wiesel:

Friendship marks a life even more deeply than love. Love risks degenerating into obsession, friendship is never anything but sharing.

Ella Wheeler Wilcox:

All love that has not friendship for its base,
Is like a mansion built upon the sand.

[nightingale11]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,19800.msg215942.html#msg215942

here is a discussion on this subject.

[infectedmushroom]

I liked reading the replies in this topic, cause I'm in the same kinda position as you henrah.



I met this beautiful girl. First, she never really got my attention, until I joined a music group where she is a member of too. She has a passion for music, sings beautiful and plays Piano! When we're together, we talk a lot and have so much fun together... I know her for about 3 months now and we're in a good friendship right now, wich I really like. Though, I'm starting to feel more than friendship right now. It's a difficult situation, cause I don't want to ruin this friendship. Sometimes, she acts like she also wants more besides friendship... But on other days, she acts weird in some kinda way and on these days, I don't have the feeling she wants more than friendship.


I don't know really how to deal with this situation, cause there is something special going on between us. For me, it's my dreamgirl. A beautiful girl, a girl to have fun with, who plays the Piano and spends so much time into music.

[emill]

Reading through the posts, I can not help but smile at the big difference
our societies/cultures have with regards to relationships.  Even in the
most "progressive and liberal" universities here, surveys among the youth
show that less than 50% of the seniors in College have had pre-marital
relations. 

Among the young married couples (<40), about two of three females
have their first relationship only in marraige. So that here,  the guys will have
to content themselves with a long friendship-courtship, then marraige
and finally a relationship.

[mycrabface]

But on other days, she acts weird in some kinda way and on these days, I don't have the feeling she wants more than friendship.


 For me, it's my dreamgirl. A beautiful girl, a girl to have fun with, who plays the Piano and spends so much time into music.

Pms?

Why does she have to fit into your "ideal wife description"

[le_poete_mourant]

You guys think it's difficult now?  Wait till we get into love triangles.  God what a mess. 

Hypothetical situation:

Your girlfriend dumps you because of family issues & says she just doesn't have feelings for you anymore.  So, you're sad, but you get on with your life.  You figure, she's not coming back, I might as well get out and meet new people, no use dwelling on it.  So you start talking to this really nice girl, who happens to be a musician, and you've got a lot in common, and you go out for coffee, but nothing serious, nothing is "official," nothing has been spoken.  And this, a month after your previous relationship ended.  But then, suddenly, a day after your coffee date, you talk to your ex, and

she breaks down in tears and says she'll never get over you and she should never have let you go, she misses you a lot and she wishes things had happened differently. 

And a big part of you is really strongly pulled back to that ex, and another part of you is leaning towards the musician.  But you don't want anyone to get hurt, and yet you must make a decision: ex, or musician. 

How to do so without hurting anyone?  (To hurt yourself would be acceptable, because you're tough.) 

But how to do it? 

Theorize for me. 

[pianistimo]

be like solomon and set up a few tests.  you know - cut a baby in half or something.  (ps i don't take this part of the bible literally).

what i mean is - i think your ex had SOME reason for slowing down the relationship.  you thought it was her family because that is what she said.  find out from her what it really was exactly.  it could have been a combination of several things. 

give both girls the same litmus test (whatever it happens to be).  if you are still not sure after one.  perform two, or three, or four.  the same thing for both girls.  it will soon become apparent which one is just biding time to have a guy in their life and which one really loves you and wants to be with you. 

patience is a good  one to test.  i mean, if a person loves you - they'll be patient (as you say you are willing to suffer - so should she).  pick her up for a date and tell her you forgot your wallet and have to return to the house.  then, forget something else, and go back a second time.  if she gets out of the car and leaves you - it was a bad experiment to start with - but still - you will see how much patience she has.

how about anger management.  you don't want a girl going awol on you 10 years later.  insult her now.  just a small one - so you don't lose out entirely.  see what she does with it.  if she returns an insult - it's ok.  if she slaps you - your pain is her enjoyment.

**easiest solution.  take them both out on a date together with you and let them do the eliminating process themselves.  worst case scenario - they both won't let go and you're stuck with two.  like jacob.  one had bad eyes and a good body.  the other one had good eyes but was spoiled and selfish.

[henrah]

Poete, it seems that your ex is the only one (except you) who would get hurt as you said that nothing official has happened between you and the musician. But that shouldn't be the deciding factor. Personal decisions to you mustn't be made to avoid hurting others when you might be the one that ends up the worst.

I think you need to do some heavy thinking and remenisce (sp?) on what you had with your ex and whether it's worth going back to that. You'll need to talk to her. She might just want to get back together with you so she doesn't feel lonely and so you can help her cope with her family issues (if they are still happening or if she still feels sad about them). I might be way off on that one, but it's possible. In any case, you need to talk to her, extensively. If your ex still has issues, you should be a friend first and foremost to her.


I hope anything I've written helps you. Good luck!
Henrah

[ahinton]

be like solomon and set up a few tests.  you know - cut a baby in half or something.  (ps i don't take this part of the bible literally).

I think that we're all somewhat relieved to learn this!

give both girls the same litmus test (whatever it happens to be).  if you are still not sure after one.  perform two, or three, or four.  the same thing for both girls.

And - while we're on the subject of literality - I'd be wary of taking this literally, too...

 

how about anger management.

Now there's a good piece of America-speak! (I'm sure that "ada" would agree); speaking from the other side of the pond that separates those "two nations divided by a common language", I cannot help but be mildly entertained by the notion that, instead of controlling and avoiding anger, one should "manage" it, just like one might "manage" a football team, orchestra, staff section or something.

Isn't the English language just wonderful?!

Best,

Alistair