Vegetarians

[soliloquy]

If vegetarians are so healthy, how come they're always pale, lanky, stooped over and have big black circles under their eyes?  They all look like they have the Flu.  I know like, 6 vegetarians and when I first met them I thought they all had HIV.  what is with that?

[pianistimo]

this is so funny!  but, i think that vegetarians have to be much more careful than meat eaters in balancing their protein, etc.  also, some vegetarians became so late in life.  they might have gotten sick from eating too much meat!  i've never gotten sick after eating veggies but several times from uncooked hamburger or a steak that had some kind of problem.  i guess packaged spinach isn't so good - but fresh spinach?  if you wash it?

perhaps the amount of spray insecticides that are used are harmful to us - but the vegetables themselves.  i doubt it.

[prometheus]

Why would vegetarians be 'so healthy'?

Also, if people look to you to have aids then that doesn't mean they are unhealthy.

Futhermore, six people aren't that many.

[ahinton]

I think that the problem here is far more wide-ranging than seems so far to have been suggested. I know a number of vegetarians (by which I mean proper vegetarians, i.e. people who eat no red or white meat and no fish but who do consume dairy products)who seem perfectly fit and healthy to me. I know only one vegan of whom I could, hand on heart, say the same, however - but then the vegan diet being so very restrictive, the dangers of getting it wrong are that much greater.

The whole point is that no one diet - or dietary restriction - will ever suit everyone. The best diet is that which would be recommended for each individual by a qualified clinical nutritionist following thorough medical testing of those individuals. This kind of thing usually happens only when someone has put him/herself at the disposal of such a professional following medical problems that may in part be attributable to diet or which may be improved by, or require, some amendments to dietary régime. In general terms, people are left to make their own choices (subject to affordability) and are best advised to figure out from experience what works best for them. Diet and physical exercise cannot sensibly be considered as separate issues; some people need, for example, greter protein or carbohydrate content in their diet than others, depending on a number of factors including the extent to which they exercise (by which I don't just mean dedicated fitness routines as in a gym but also day-to-day physical exercise in the course of one's work).

I do not eat meat or fish every day, but I am not a vegetarian. There are certain things that can be obtained from meat and fish that are either absent from - or present in insufficient quantities in - other foodstuffs. It is possibly a shortage of some or all of these that may afflict those people of whom you, "soliloquy", have written here. The obvious rule of thumb is that, if you think your diet is not as healthy for you as it might be, then try to find one that is - and in cases where that really means vegetarians or vegans turning to eating meat and/or fish, then so be it, in the interests of general well-being.

Best,

Alistair

[mad_max2024]

Vegetarian diets are NOT healthier, far from it

Vegetarians should be very careful about their diets, it is very easy to have an unbalanced diet when you eliminate all meat from it.
The human body is that of a carnivorous animal, it is evolutionarily designed to eat meat and gain nutrition from it, it is not prepared to be sustained solely by vegetables.
Several animoacids are not present in vegetable proteins, some vitamins are also predominantly present in meat, some vegetable components cannot be digested by our bodies, etc, etc, etc

Of course, there is nothing wrong in being a vegetarian
But you should always consult a nutritionist to make sure you are not damaging your health

The simptoms you described could be for the lack of some nutrient, or they can be just a coincidence

[rc]

I've always thought vegitarians were a little kooky.  Whenever I'm eating and the person across from me says she's a vegitarian (I've only met women who were), I feel this urge to give her a bite of my burger or a piece of shrimp.

I find my body has a tendency to tell me what it needs.  Aside from indulgence, snacking and eating for pleasure...  I sometimes crave a specific food.  A few weeks ago I suddenly wanted some BurgerKing really badly, but I hate how that stuff sits in my gut like a brick, until I realized it was just some delicious meat that my body wanted, genuine hunger for juicy beef.  Other times it might be for a carrot, or an apple.  It seems to me that if I'm lacking something, my body will make it known.

It depends on the persons lifestyle too...  If someone needs physical strength in their day to day lives, I just couldn't imagine them being able to have the energy and maintain their muscle without meat.

You can tell I'm not being very scientific about this.  All I know for sure is meat is delicious, and vegans are crazy.

[prometheus]

The human body is that of a carnivorous animal,

The human is an omnivore.

it is evolutionarily designed to eat meat and gain nutrition from it, it is not prepared to be sustained solely by vegetables.

The human is not 'designed'. The human body is adapted to be able to survive eating a both broad and limited diet. As long as you get all the stuff the human body needs to survive. Something which should be no problem for a vegetarian.

Several animoacids are not present in vegetable proteins,

That's a stupid comment. There are only 20 different types. And just one protein may require up to 100,000 AAs. The basics of protein manifacture are the same in all life.

... some vitamins are also predominantly present in meat, some vegetable components cannot be digested by our bodies

There's only B12 and that should be no problem for a vegetarian. Vegans should take suppliments. If they do the problem is eliminated and the fact their diet lacks B12 without the suppliments is meaningless.

etc, etc, etc

You have only been able to name one problem, one that can be easily solved. You really have more?

Of course, there is nothing wrong in being a vegetarian

Uuh, if a diet lacks specific amino acids and vitamins there is a lot wrong with having this diet.

But you should always consult a nutritionist to make sure you are not damaging your health

Why should vegetarians do such a thing? And why shouldn't people that eat meat?

I suggest that all people that consume alcohol contact a nutritionist to make sure they don't damage their health.

The simptoms you described could be for the lack of some nutrient, or they can be just a coincidence

[prometheus]

I find my body has a tendency to tell me what it needs.  A few weeks ago I suddenly wanted some BurgerKing really badly,

I am sure no body needs Burger King food. I don't really understand. Your body said that it could use some Burger King. But in reality it really just wanted some 'healthy meat'.

It seems to me that if I'm lacking something, my body will make it known.

Sounds like a non-sequator to me. Why would you body need it? I don't see based on what you can draw such a conclusion.

Also, does your body ever crave for insects? They are highly nutritional.

If someone needs physical strength in their day to day lives, I just couldn't imagine them being able to have the energy and maintain their muscle without meat.

I don't see the assosation between meat and strenght.

My brother is into body building, or maybe just serious fitness. He uses protein food suppliments.
The suppliments are totally based on dairy. Not meat.

There are quite some extreme athletes out there that are vegetarian or vegan. There is actually an assosiation between body building and vegetarians. There are even vegan body builders that have more muscle tone than we two probably have together. They can't even use the dairy protein.

same goes for vegetarians and  triathletes.

You can tell I'm not being very scientific about this.

You are right. The stuff you say is just your meaningless opinion about how the reality should be.

  All I know for sure is meat is delicious, and vegans are crazy.

What about human meat? I heard it is very delicious. Did you ever try it?

[ahinton]

Some of the remarks since my first response here seem to echo certain of those things that I endeavoured to express, but there are also other issues that some of these contributions have raised which are surely deserving of further consideration.

The use of vitamin and other dietary supplements may change somewhat over the next few years, now that research is increasingly identifying that attempts to take in certain chemicals via dietary supplement medication rarely if ever succeed in providing the same levels of physical benefit that result from taking in the same chemicals from natural foodstuffs. This research is far from complete and, as yet, no firm conculsions have been drawn as to why this appears to be so (the fibre that is ingested as part of certain natural foodstuffs has been posited as affecting positively the length of time that the relevant nutrients remain within the system, as distinct from the pill-based ingestion where the beneficial chemicals may get flushed out of the system faster, or there could be other reasons).

I mention this for a number of reasons, not least because the notion (as has been suggesed in this thread) that vegans should take artifical dietary supplements (containing vitamins and other things) specifically to make good the dietary deficiencies that result from their chosen régime is at worst potentially dangerous and even at best may be dubious in terms of general efficacy.

Humans are indeed omnivores rather than merely carnivores; it is also true that the human physical system has not been "designed" in the sense of a one-off once-and-for-all template but has evolved over the millennia in different ways and to differing extents in different parts of the world, climatic and economic factors having played some part in how this has occurred.

Psychological as well as physiological benefits must necessarily be afforded due consideration when assessing the benefits or otherwise of certain foods for certain people. An uncomfortably large proportion of the more evangelical kindsof vegan seek - at least in my experience of them - to eschew all reference to the very word "chemicals" in discussion of the nutritional content of food, as though all such "chemicals" are always and inevitably inorganic, artifical and therefore somehow evil, unnatural and, by design and definition, non-beneficial to the human system; still more do they endeavour to suppress all reference to the notion of "drugs" as constituent parts of foodstuffs, for the same or not dissimilar alleged reasons. I won't expand on this too much here, preferring instead to cite just the single example of serotonin, found in far greater quantities in certain meats than in any vegetable products; serotonin, like many other chemicals present in foodstuffs, animal or vegetable, organically reared/grown or otherwise, is, to the human system, a drug capable of beneficial effects both psychological and physiological. When people tell me that they "don't do drugs" (in the sense of recreational, as distinct from medically prescribed, drugs), I understand and try to accept (as far as it goes) what they say but at the same time feel obliged to take it with abit of a "pinch of salt" (if you'll pardon the expression here!), since these people do actually eat, like the rest of us - ergo they "do drugs".

We composing and performing musicians - and those members of our audiences who devote all their concentrative faculties when listening to music - involve ourselves in the same kind of thing, for music can stimulate certain emotional responses in the creator, performer and listener, thereby setting off chemical changes in the brain that are, in principle, not always necessarily so very different to such changes as are brought about by the ingestion of certain drugs present in foodstuffs. One could therefore arguably extrapolate from this fact the notion of the "ingestion" of music in "dietary" and "doing drugs" terms, too, if one so chose, at least in terms of a consideration of the effects that one may feel - or even perhaps be seeking to achieve - by means of such drugs.

That said, please understand that I am not for one moment suggesting that anyone should accordingly substitute listening to Schönberg's First Chamber Symphony for eating Wiener Schnitzel followed by sachertorte, to Varèse's Bourgogne (if only one could and if only he hadn't destroyed the score!) for an authentic bourgignon or to Albéniz's Ibéria played by "Ham"-elin for jamón ibérico...

Best,

Alistair

[mad_max2024]

The human is an omnivore.

Indeed he is... I just meant that he is not a herbivore and eats meat by nature
bad choice of word, sorry

The human is not 'designed'. The human body is adapted to be able to survive eating a both broad and limited diet. As long as you get all the stuff the human body needs to survive. Something which should be no problem for a vegetarian.

It is not designed in the way that it was not made by an entity, but it was surely molded by evolution into the organism we know today
If we get all we need to survive, we survive, that much is obvious
That won't be difficult for a vegetarian but it requires some care

That's a stupid comment. There are only 20 different types. And just one protein may require up to 100,000 AAs. The basics of protein manifacture are the same in all life.

ok, if you vary your diet in proteins, you can indeed get all of the aa you need
But plant proteins are not complete, unlike meat proteins, they usually lack some aminoacids
If you do not balance that absence with complementary protein sources (which can be other plants that have them of course), you will get a deficiency

There's only B12 and that should be no problem for a vegetarian. Vegans should take suppliments. If they do the problem is eliminated and the fact their diet lacks B12 without the suppliments is meaningless.

I never said the problems weren't easily solvable, I just said they were there
Of course they can and should be solved by supplements
apart from vitB12 there are also minerals like iron that, while not absent in plants are present in less quantities
Of course, they can also be included in supplements if needed or simply solved by being careful to choose the plants that specifically have them

You have only been able to name one problem, one that can be easily solved. You really have more?

All problems can be solved

Uuh, if a diet lacks specific amino acids and vitamins there is a lot wrong with having this diet.

No there isn't
I'm not trying to claim vegetarian diets are dangerous
They just need attention
If people take care with what they eat, there is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian
As you said, all the problems from a vegan diet can be easily solved
It is still necessary for people to solve them though...

Why should vegetarians do such a thing? And why shouldn't people that eat meat?

Because they don't eat meat, therefore cutting off one or more whole food groups from their diets according to wether or not they eat dairies or eggs or fish, that naturally unbalances their diet
Which, of course, can be rebalanced, the problems that causes are not exceedingly difficult to solve, but they still need solving 
Of course meat eaters also require care if they make an unbalanced diet, which is rather common these days unfortunately

I suggest that all people that consume alcohol contact a nutritionist to make sure they don't damage their health.

I don't even know what you mean there...

[mad_max2024]

The use of vitamin and other dietary supplements may change somewhat over the next few years, now that research is increasingly identifying that attempts to take in certain chemicals via dietary supplement medication rarely if ever succeed in providing the same levels of physical benefit that result from taking in the same chemicals from natural foodstuffs. This research is far from complete and, as yet, no firm conculsions have been drawn as to why this appears to be so (the fibre that is ingested as part of certain natural foodstuffs has been posited as affecting positively the length of time that the relevant nutrients remain within the system, as distinct from the pill-based ingestion where the beneficial chemicals may get flushed out of the system faster, or there could be other reasons).

I mention this for a number of reasons, not least because the notion (as has been suggesed in this thread) that vegans should take artifical dietary supplements (containing vitamins and other things) specifically to make good the dietary deficiencies that result from their chosen régime is at worst potentially dangerous and even at best may be dubious in terms of general efficacy.

That I didn't know
I can't really think of a reason why natural nutrients would be more adequate than artificial ones
Something worth investigating perhaps...

I won't expand on this too much here, preferring instead to cite just the single example of serotonin, found in far greater quantities in certain meats than in any vegetable products; serotonin, like many other chemicals present in foodstuffs, animal or vegetable, organically reared/grown or otherwise, is, to the human system, a drug capable of beneficial effects both psychological and physiological. When people tell me that they "don't do drugs" (in the sense of recreational, as distinct from medically prescribed, drugs), I understand and try to accept (as far as it goes) what they say but at the same time feel obliged to take it with abit of a "pinch of salt" (if you'll pardon the expression here!), since these people do actually eat, like the rest of us - ergo they "do drugs".

In that particular case, I really doubt serotonin ingested through the digestive system will reach the nervous system where it can have it's more famous effects
I think it will most likely have little or no effect at all

I can understand your point though
People are usually a bit irrational when it comes to drugs
They believe drugs coming from natural sources can't harm them while the same drug artificially created is potentially dangerous

[rc]

You are right. The stuff you say is just your meaningless opinion about how the reality should be.

Sure, what's wrong with that?

What about human meat? I heard it is very delicious. Did you ever try it?

It's actually a little tough, I like to marinate it in beer for a few days to soften it up.  With diced onions, mmmmmmm.

[lichristine]

haha has anyone heard the stand-up comedian Ron White's bit on vegetarians? It's hysterical....