How to practice 5-6 hours a day

[lisztisforkids]

How is it done? I mean stamina wise. I have enough stuff to practice 5-6 hours between music and technical exercises. I just dont have the stamina. The only way I can figure to practice this much is to practice in three two hour increments, each at different times during the day. But I tire very easily.

[overscore]

How is it done? I mean stamina wise. I have enough stuff to practice 5-6 hours between music and technical exercises. I just dont have the stamina. The only way I can figure to practice this much is to practice in three two hour increments, each at different times during the day. But I tire very easily.

You have to split it up, yes, or you'll go nuts. Even then, you have to work up to it gradually. I started at an hour a day, then two, then eventually four or five.

I don't have to practice that much. I just do it because there's nothing else I'd rather be doing. After a while you don't get tired anymore... I guess you adjust to it.

If you think practice is tiring and boring, imagine standing on a factory assembly line for 8 hours a day. That would be a thousand times worse!

[liszt-essence]

What about 3 hours. Richter practiced 3 hours..

[mike_lang]

Richter was sporadic - his claims of minimal practicing are undermined by his wife's reports of 8-12 hour days at the piano.  From what I've heard, there really wasn't any regularity in the practicing.  Of course, this is a bit off topic.

To practice as many hours as you imagine, I find it necessary to chart specific goals in each piece for the day, in terms of memorization, technical achievements, and musical discovery and realization.

[b.piano]

I practice 4-5 hours a day & I cant practice more on my clavinova b-coz we don't have electrisity more that that !! is that good or what??? 

[danny elfboy]

First of all it's not true that the more you practice the better
It's known nowadays that learning is divided in two phases
The phase which we control is "information gathering"
The other phase we don't control is "information elaboration and skimming" this happens at night while we're sleeping and it's one of the reasons why sleep deprivation is linked with learning and memory problems

The information gathering about the same concept is very shot lived
That means that if you keep reading the same chapter of a book for 5-10-20 times your likely of learning it are not increased. In fact all the gathering you need about a concept occurs in an amount of time which is within the 15-35 minutes and 3-4 repetitions

So the only way to take advantage of more time available to studying is to devote little time to many different concepts/information
Even with that the "information gathering" mode is rather short lived because of a phenomena called CSFN (Central Nervous System Fatigue) which is basically the "point of overtraining in learning and aquiring information"

I don't know if that comes as a shock for everyone but the typical studying method (especially of college students) with lot of repetitions of the same argument and "information load" just the day before a text is useless. These students spend the last days before a text studying 12-13 hours a day and drinking liters coffee at night to stay awake believing they "need to do it" to learn more and actually they're not achieving anything more that they couldn't achieve from studying 2 hours and reading the chapters/information just once or twice

And that's the point: since the person that claims that his/her results coming from studying 5, 7, 10 hours a day ... has not tried to do otherwise for a long period of time he can't absolutely proves that he's benefitting in any way from all those study

It's like having an over which reaches the maximum temperature of 200° C
The cook turn on the over and wait 30 minutes
After 20 minutes the oven as already reached the maximum temperature of 200° C (and the cook would know if there was a thermometer on the oven)
But when it's almost 50 minutes the oven is on without nothing inside the cook thinks "I will wait another 30 minutes to make sure it reaches the maximum temperature possible" ... and yet the oven has reached that limit 30 minutes ago

It's the same concept of believing that the more you time spend studying (expecially the same thing) the more you learn.

4-5 hours straight is a suicide
4-5 hours on the same pieces/chapter is a 240 minutes of wasted time

That being said it's not perfectly clear where the boundaries of CSNF is but it's though to be 2-3 hours. The recovering is knows to accour after at least 6 hours which means that if one wants to study for more than 2-3 hours (without unawaressly wasting a lot of time) the second practice time must be on far and different time of the day (i.e.2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening/ 3 hours in the afternoon and 1 hours at night)

Also: fun, distraction, relaxation, playing are not just "modern human urges" but vital aspects of the "deconditioning and release" of the nervous system

You can read more on learning, the brain and the nervous system too see where I'm coming from on neurophysiological textbooks. This bears repeating: neurophysiological textbooks. Psychology has nothing scientifically to do with these facts (as some may believe) and psychologists has nothing to do with the facts about the neurotransmittion occurring in learning

[ramseytheii]

To practice as many hours as you imagine, I find it necessary to chart specific goals in each piece for the day, in terms of memorization, technical achievements, and musical discovery and realization.

I think this is really important.  You have to know why you are practicing anything in order to do it with full focus.  And you may find if you can focus completely, the time will pass faster than you imagined.  It also takes a commitment to your goals: that you are not going to move on until you achieve them, or at least get close as is possible for you with integrity.

Since you mentioned Richter, that's something also I remember that he said, that he practices a passage "over and over again" until he gets it right.  This is not an admission of obsession, but a demonstration of an uncompromising commitment towards goals and values that are rational - if they weren't, they couldn't be reached ever.

In short, what you need for several hours of practice a day is inspiration, and the desire to never let it escape.

Walter Ramsey

[overscore]

First of all it's not true that the more you practice the better

Well I can't agree with that. From my own personal experience I know that the more I practice the faster I learn and the better I get. Piano is such a terribly complicated skill that you can't hope to master it unless you dedicate yourself to it. An hour a day is just not enough in my book.

Obviously if you sat practicing the same thing over and over for five hours, that would be pointless and destructive. But there is *so* much to learn that there is no need to do so.

[ramseytheii]

Well I can't agree with that. From my own personal experience I know that the more I practice the faster I learn and the better I get. Piano is such a terribly complicated skill that you can't hope to master it unless you dedicate yourself to it. An hour a day is just not enough in my book.

Obviously if you sat practicing the same thing over and over for five hours, that would be pointless and destructive. But there is *so* much to learn that there is no need to do so.

Well elfenboy was probably referring to all those people who practice hours and hours without really concentrating, and don't retain a lot, or don't become significantly better.  If this doesn't apply to you that's great.

I knew a girl once who told me she practiced 12 hours a day, or was it 14?  She really sounded like it, in the sense that she had repeated Beethoven sonata in A major op.2 no.2 a thousand times over the course of 12 hours.  We were not amused!

Walter Ramsey

[overscore]

  She really sounded like it, in the sense that she had repeated Beethoven sonata in A major op.2 no.2 a thousand times over the course of 12 hours.

Well that is pointless yes. I never practice the same thing for more than 10 or 15 minutes because it's destructive rather than constructive.

As long as you vary what you do and split it up into three or four sessions then lots of practice is good.

[soulmach]

You can read more on learning, the brain and the nervous system too see where I'm coming from on neurophysiological textbooks. This bears repeating: neurophysiological textbooks. Psychology has nothing scientifically to do with these facts (as some may believe) and psychologists has nothing to do with the facts about the neurotransmittion occurring in learning

I completely agree with danny elfboy's statements.  Here's why:

For perspective, I'll say I've been learning on my own for a year and a half (I'm getting a teacher soon).  Three months ago I made a life changing decision. I decided to focus much of my energy on learning how to learn more efficiently.  Due to that decision, I am learning more in recent months than I ever learned in my first year of practice.  In my first year, I tried all the intuitive methods, and I would sometimes sit for hours doing the same things over and over.  I did see progress, sure; however, I had NO IDEA how much faster I could be progressing.  Now after studying how to learn more efficiently,  I am learning faster.  Also, I am learning more things (technique, memorization, sight-reading, etc.).

Many people think if they are not sitting in front of the keyboard pounding keys, that they are wasting their time.  Within reason, I have personally found the opposite to be true.   I practice 2 hours max, then force myself to stay away from the keyboard for at least 2 hours.  I will sometimes go back for another 2 hours in the evening, and realize that the techniques I practiced in the morning came much easier.  I do not practice more than 4 hours a day.  However, sometimes I will sit and play after practicing.  I will not play scales or arpeggios, but I will just sit and make music to the best of my ability.   Doing this allows me to see my progress and I become extremely motivated by it.

In my opinion, anyone serious about learning should not disregard danny elfboy's statements.

[danny_sequel]

Well I can't agree with that. From my own personal experience I know that the more I practice the faster I learn and the better I get. Piano is such a terribly complicated skill that you can't hope to master it unless you dedicate yourself to it. An hour a day is just not enough in my book.

I too think an our a day is not enough
But once CSFN kicks in ... you're not more in control of your learning
There's not an universal amount of time that CSFN gets to develop but it's thought to be within about 2 hours. Point is that when you reach your CSFN threshold you're not achieving any information gathering, and as consequence any information processing, and the "feel" that you're learning/improving is just placebo

It's a physioneurological limit we can't overcome ... but it's actually not a limitation because when we learn respecting our natural "physiology of learning" we learn at an unbelievable pace ... and we goes against the "physiology of learning" we sabotate our learning. In fact it's a clear case of the more the worse

Learning at unbelievable pace by respecting our physioneurology means that a concept is just "half learned" the moment you read/gather it but the next day it's like as if you've known that fact for years and can't absolutely forget even if you want too

The sabotage of this mechanism (and 4 hours straight of study or with just am hour of rest between them is an example of sabotage) means that what you learn one day is still "incomplete/in need of re-reading" the next day and so on and on
The higher the sabotage the higher the amount of time the information will be "not internalized" ... while we do all have the ability to internalize and elaborate information at the highest level possible (including the highest level of long time memory) in just one day.

The people who don't how to learn in accordance with our neurological structure can't absolutely believe what's like to learn something sunday, sleep over it and having reached on monday a level of competence about it that even if you try with all your strength to forget it, unlearn it or mistaken it ... you absolutely can't. But when they see this happening they always never go back to the old way

[danny_sequel]

By the way ... missing a day a week is good ... it's better than studying 7 days a week
The "rest day" allows a deep deconditioning which makes "information processing" even stronger. After the "rest day" everything is much easier, much simpler and clearer

In fact the improvement happens by itself, we're not in control of it because we don't control the processing of the information. Many people believe that if you do nothing nothing can happen. With learning it's the opposite

[netzow]

I completely agree with danny elfboy's statements.  Here's why:

For perspective, I'll say I've been learning on my own for a year and a half (I'm getting a teacher soon).  Three months ago I made a life changing decision. I decided to focus much of my energy on learning how to learn more efficiently.  Due to that decision, I am learning more in recent months than I ever learned in my first year of practice.  In my first year, I tried all the intuitive methods, and I would sometimes sit for hours doing the same things over and over.  I did see progress, sure; however, I had NO IDEA how much faster I could be progressing.  Now after studying how to learn more efficiently,  I am learning faster.  Also, I am learning more things (technique, memorization, sight-reading, etc.).

Many people think if they are not sitting in front of the keyboard pounding keys, that they are wasting their time.  Within reason, I have personally found the opposite to be true.   I practice 2 hours max, then force myself to stay away from the keyboard for at least 2 hours.  I will sometimes go back for another 2 hours in the evening, and realize that the techniques I practiced in the morning came much easier.  I do not practice more than 4 hours a day.  However, sometimes I will sit and play after practicing.  I will not play scales or arpeggios, but I will just sit and make music to the best of my ability.   Doing this allows me to see my progress and I become extremely motivated by it.

In my opinion, anyone serious about learning should not disregard danny elfboy's statements.

What did you do to learn more efficiently?

[soulmach]

What did you do to learn more efficiently?

Well, I did not intend to say that I am well versed in neurophysiology.  I am not; however, I did not start to learn at my full potential until I started trying to be aware of how we learn. Likewise, I am FAR from being Art Tatum. Regardless, I will answer your question.

First I would just like to say, I do recommend a teacher.  I have learned most of my piano skills by trial and error in my first year of practice, without a teacher.  In hindsight I can see that having a good teacher would have been very beneficial. 

In my original practice sessions, for 1 hour I would sit and play all major/min scales and triads.  Then I used the 3rd movement of Moonlight to practice my arpeggios.  Next, I practiced Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum for 1 1/2 or 2 hours, which I read was strongly recommended by Chopin.  I concur, this routine was helpful for gaining muscle, and agility in my fingers, and learning common patterns.  I learned to pound the keys rapidly, and keep time rather well, but when I tried to make music I severely lacked skill.  I started playing at 23yo, and now I am 24, much older than most classical pianists.  Some say if you do not start when you're a child, you will never master classical music.  I asked myself, "what is it that children have that adults do not?"  I'm still trying to answer that question.  That is when I decided to abandon all former mental conditioning, and start new (like a child!).  Perhaps, I initiated a lifestyle change.  I believe if adults want to become great at something as difficult as piano, it requires a lifestyle change.  The life of being a pianist does come more naturally with children.  My theory is because they are not yet burdened by unhealthy concepts.  Such concepts only get pushed on us when we start to have more pressing responsibilities, such as surviving LOL.

I'm going to try to cut to the point.  Here are some  that have helped me:

• Developing awareness, presence, and space consciousness.  You can try some Deepack Chopra, or Eckhart Tolle teachings.  I agree it is a less secular approach, but it helped me tremendously.
• Mental play away from the piano [learn more at www.pianofundamentals.com].  I frequently sit in waiting rooms with my sheet music and be attempting to play the 3rd movement in my head!  If you can play it in your head, you can play it at the piano, it's true.  I've been practicing mental play so much in the past month, that I have actually played concerts in my dreams. I don't know if that is dedication, or if I am just a nut-ball. LOL
• Learning proper technique.  I recommend "Mastering Piano Technique" by Seymour Fink (as does www.pianofundamentals.com) because it teaches some physical exercises that can be done away from the piano, yet improve technique.  Some of the exercises can even be done while sitting at your desk.  With proper technique, human muscular agility is substantial enough to play piano without those tiring, vigorous exercises.

I recommend taking frequent breaks.  Lately I have been doing 1 hour sessions.  Usually I do about 4 sessions a day.  The first 15 minutes,  I do scales and arps, the next 30 minutes, I play my desired repertoire, bar by bar, until I get it right.  If I don't get it right in that session, I don't worry.  The last 15 minutes, I just sit and play music!  I have fun.  I pretend I am in a concert.   If I mess up I keep going, and I shake it off as if I were really performing!  I find that in my next 1 hour session I see noteworthy improvements.

HERE IS WHAT HAS HELPED ME MOST:
The breaks in between.  It's true.  During those breaks, I do all the exercises (physical and mental) that can be done away from the piano.  These exercises include mental play, physical exercises from Seymour Finks "Mastering Piano Technique", listening to semi-spiritual teachings about presence, awareness, and space consciousness (which has helped me to look away from the keys while I play, and has also helped me feel like I own the piano before me.  The piano does not control me I control it.)

Sorry, I have to go now, I'm late for something.  If you are interested in neurophysiology, mentioned by danny elfboy, I would like to recommend "Biology and Human Behavior: The Neurological Origins of Individuality, 2nd Edition" taught by Robert Sapolsky from Stanford University.  I am just starting it, and It is very VERY intriguing thus far. 

Thanks for your question, and good luck to you! :-)

[overscore]

We all know the old adage 'sleep on it' and I don't think you need to be a neurobiologist to appreciate this. If I can't get a piece after ten minutes I just drop it and go back to it the next day, where it seems slightly easier.

I also think it's pretty much common sense that you take breaks so that you don't mentally exhaust yourself. But it's also true that the more you practice, the greater your stamina and powers of concentration become. A beginner might play for 30 minutes once a day and be too exhausted to do any more. Someone who's played for a year or more (regularly) shouldn't have any trouble doing 4 or 5 one hour sessions a day.

Yes, you also need goals. You need to be able to go to bed each day knowing that you've taken another step forward, and knowing what tomorrow's step must be.

[ganymed]

its possible to play that long each day with 5 - 10 min breaks after every hour or 90 minutes of playing in order to play with full concentration again. You should do that when learning also. Its an advice from doctors and a psychologist in my family ^^.

[soulmach]

... I don't think you need to be a neurobiologist to appreciate this. If I can't get a piece after ten minutes I just drop it and go back to it the next day, where it seems slightly easier. 

I agree that neurophysiology is not a necessity for learning piano.  I would also point out, that we don't need to know the internal physiological needs of the human body to go for a casual run in the park.  However, to be a professional marathon runner it helps to know the physiological structure of the human body.  Knowing physiological needs could very easily be what a serious runner needs to help push them to greatness. 

Nonetheless, when considering piano technique, I have found it to be 20% physical, 80% mental (or neurophysical).  Therefore, doing a casual study on neurophysiology can be very helpful, but is not a necessity.  Should you dismiss neural studies altogether, or give it some thought? It is your responsibility to decide.

I also think it's pretty much common sense that you take breaks so that you don't mentally exhaust yourself. But it's also true that the more you practice, the greater your stamina and powers of concentration become. A beginner might play for 30 minutes once a day and be too exhausted to do any more. Someone who's played for a year or more (regularly) shouldn't have any trouble doing 4 or 5 one hour sessions a day.

It is true.  Taking breaks is common sense, to some people.   Someone might want (or even need) to hear these things.  I enjoy writing about proper practice, because it gives me a chance to re-enforce these concepts in my own mind.  Personally, later in life I was told I needed to learn how to slow down and take breaks.  I would over-work myself. I was taught to work until my hands bleed. Common sense depends on the culture where we live, or our childhood environment.  Even today, many still consider taking breaks a sign of weakness (such as football coaches over-training athletes in the summer heat), and that is dangerous territory.  The athletes know they are in dire need of rest, but they go against common sense because coach says so, and coach knows best.

Also, you made an excellent point which I neglected to mention.  My daily practice is the only reason I am able to push 3 or 4 one hour sessions in one day.   When I think back to October 2005, when I was first beginning to play, I would ache after playing for 45 minutes.  Piano requires intricate coordination, which can only be developed through time and practice.  I was using many muscles I didn't even know I had LOL.  Likewise, I was using muscles that were not required for playing piano, and it was only through study that I became aware of my improper techniques.  When beginning, 30 minute practices session were ideal for me.  I simply continued to gently push my limits; and now, if I thought it were wise, I could practice all day if I desired.  Instead, I have found the importance of mental rest as well.

---------------------------------

I am anxious to mention another common sense rule.  Regardless, I feel an urge to mention that nobody should play when in pain.  In those times, rest is crucial.  There is absolutely no reason to ever be in pain when playing the piano.  If pain is keeping anyone from practicing, it is very important to stand back for as long as it takes to heal (in some cases days).  While waiting for the pain to heal, it would be highly advisable to study relaxation techniques.  Pain when playing piano is usually a result of improper technique, which is best corrected with a teacher.  If a teacher is unavailable, there are many books on the subject of relaxation.  I recommend studying, "On Piano Playing - Motion, Sound And Expression," by Gyorgy Sandor.  He focuses on learning to effortlessly play the piano by using the entire human "playing apparatus".   

[pianowelsh]

open piano lid - get comfy - dont stop till its right!!!

[pianowelsh]

change activity regularly - so scales 30 mins say, piece one 30mins - stand up open wind ow etc.. a new piece starting at the middle! hands sep etc.. 30 mins of memory work (the last page of something else)... coffe break... mini performnace of something nearly ready (with tape recorder) - 20 mins sitting with score and pencil marking up your perceptions of your taped effort. an hour honing the piece you just recorded - with a tick list!!! etc   there are loads of ways to make that time go!  you'll be thinking 5 hrs isn enough by the end of a week!

[ramseytheii]

I remember reading a self-righteous interview with Stockhausen where he said something along the lines of, "Unlike my colleagues, who take a coffee break every few minutes, I can sit in the studio composing for 10 hours straight."

It struck me as an irritating comment, and it is I think.   But I actually advise against changing too often, because what ends up happening is that you give in to your lazier side.  If you ever have had a personal trainer, as soon as you start getting tired, that is when they push you the most.  And if you think that exercising doesn't require concentration, but piano practice does, you're wrong - they both do.  If you don't believe me, try a mechanical track at a steep angle, at a fast rate, and reading something complicated at the same time -you will wear out at twice the speed.

The way I approach it is to have a specific goal, and not to give up until you achieve a reasonble portion, or the entire, goal.  Not everything can be achieved in one sitting, and this is true for everyone.  I had a teacher once who greeted Glenn Gould after a concert; my teacher complimented him on his performance of the Beethoven sonata, and Gould said, "I hardly know it, I've only performed it 30 times."

The trick to changing gears, or taking a break, is to know the difference between momentary frustration and true fatigue.  They are not always easily distinguishable.  Fatigue, though, comes naturally when you are doing good work, and by good I mean concentrated, with goals accomplished.  Frustration comes quickly, and is a mental signal telling you to change, because it will take more effort to overcome this obstacle.  This is precisely the moment that you have to apply this effort, and not give in to laziness and excuses.  If you don't, you are basically practicing the laziness into your routine.

If you don't have specific goals, it is also easy to get frustrated.  When your work is aimless, there seems to be no end in sight, and you only naturally think, what is the point?  Setting the right goal takes practice too, because if you want to be Martha Argerich and learn Gaspard in 3 days, it isn't right for everybody.  Oh well - it just isn't!  I doubt Michelangeli learned it in 3 days.  But setting an irrational goal that you really cannot reach, and inducing more frustration, is neither an excuse to stop setting goals, but rather to learn to set them more rationally.

I think too much emphasis has been given to changing mental gears, esp. by Bernhard, who advocated changing focus all the time.  For me, that seems more tiring then the sustained concentration required to solve an immediate problem.

Walter Ramsey

[overscore]

Lots of good points there. The idea of 'running through a stitch' like an athlete is one that has occurred to me too but with varying results. Sometimes, if I force myself to keep going even when I'm fed up then I do make some sort of dramatic breakthrough... at other times I just break down physically and have to stop.

The mind is a strange thing, and sometimes it's hard to know whether your subconcious fears and insecurities are trying to push you into giving up by manifesting themselves as fatigue, impatience etc. If you watch a child learning, then as soon as they get to the point where they feel something's too hard for them then they say 'I'm tired!' or 'I'm bored!' or 'I have to watch TV in five minutes!' They don't really realise they are doing it. They need an adult there to say gently, 'Well, come on just try a little bit harder.' Adults are the same, only they have cleverer ways of putting things off.

I also find my physical condition drastically affects my concentration. Practice in the morning is dead easy... there just seems to be limitless energy. By contrast, practicing at night is far more fatiguing. Having a meal before playing also seems to help a great deal (or at least a snack).

Also, visuals seem to make a big difference to me. If I watch my hands while playing (assuming I'm playing from memory) then this seems to consume an enormous amount of mental energy. I think the strain of following your fingers actually requires more mental effort than the actual music itself. So I've been starting to play with my eyes closed, and after a brief period of fumbling about missing notes, I've found that my concentration and stamina are vastly improved. It's surprising how quickly you develop a mental map of the keyboard.

[franzliszt2]

I find the best way to practice is to:

wake up at 6 am
Practice 6:30 t0 7:30

(then I get on a bus to college)

Practice 8-9 (10 if I someone else hasn't booked the room)


Practice from about 12 to 1

Practice 3 to 4

Practice 5-6

Practice 7-8

Practice 9 to 10

Then pub!!!!

[danny elfboy]

I remember reading a self-righteous interview with Stockhausen where he said something along the lines of, "Unlike my colleagues, who take a coffee break every few minutes, I can sit in the studio composing for 10 hours straight."

It struck me as an irritating comment, and it is I think.

It struck me as comical ... composing ?! ... Stockhausen ?! ... lol

I've seen many interviews of him and he's the same kind of pompous idiot that Boulez is. I hate that ilk of avant-gard mannerist wannabe gods closed in their ivory tower

[danny elfboy]

I remember reading a self-righteous interview with Stockhausen where he said something along the lines of, "Unlike my colleagues, who take a coffee break every few minutes, I can sit in the studio composing for 10 hours straight."

It struck me as an irritating comment, and it is I think.   But I actually advise against changing too often, because what ends up happening is that you give in to your lazier side.  If you ever have had a personal trainer, as soon as you start getting tired, that is when they push you the most.

That would be a disaster. Yeah that's what we see in movies and so but the human body doesn't work like this. The moment lactate kicks in and you feel like you can't go on if you're just pushed not to stop you're just sabotating your whole effort and endangering your health. This is especially true of resistance training where what you need is very small lacerations of the muscle fibers and not collapsed hypoglycogenic muscles.

The trick to changing gears, or taking a break, is to know the difference between momentary frustration and true fatigue.  They are not always easily distinguishable.  Fatigue, though, comes naturally when you are doing good work, and by good I mean concentrated, with goals accomplished.  Frustration comes quickly, and is a mental signal telling you to change, because it will take more effort to overcome this obstacle.  This is precisely the moment that you have to apply this effort, and not give in to laziness and excuses.  If you don't, you are basically practicing the laziness into your routine.

Frustration can also come from being out of your short-term gathering phase (and only our body at night can go in the processing phase) and still trying to force information in your short-term saturated brains. In other words fatigue (which is central nervous system fatigue) and frustration (which is probably forcing a brain when it has reached its central nervous system fatigue threshold) are probably the same thing

After all lazyness in itself is just a sign of real fatigue or real misusage of the mental apparatus. There are many researcher and writers on learning that agree that lazyness doesn't exist, it's just the name we give to a unvoluntary neurological mechanism.

If you don't have specific goals, it is also easy to get frustrated.  When your work is aimless, there seems to be no end in sight, and you only naturally think, what is the point?

That's true but all in all we must compromise with the way our brain works because if we do we learn quicker and better. Exercizing is a good example. If you do resistance training you need very short term stimulations that create microlacerations of the muscle fibers. These microlaceration are repaired at night and this is what makes the muscles stronger.

Two important concepts come from this:

1) You can't make your muscle stronger while you're awake

2) It's absolutely not true that the more the better. The amount of stimulation the muscles need to become stronger is self-restricted. With more instead of making your muscles stronger and bigger you obtain just the opposite: your muscles become weaker and smaller

This is (being a physiological mechanism similar to our neurocerebral apparatus) applies in the same exact way to our brain and our learning too

In other words: we can't really learn nothing the moment we read it, observe it or analyze it (we may believe we have learned it but we haven't, learning require processing and that's something that happens only at night)
We need very short stimulations that's because the brain in gathering mode saturates itself very quickly of that same information. The reason is simple: gathering occurs very quickly .. sometimes with just one reading; but "learning" won't progress till the gathered material is processed (at night) so staying long time analyzing, reading, memorizing the same concept is useless, because we're striving to something (learning) that we have no control upon. We have only control upon the gathering phase and that's often requires less than 10 minutes. What happens when you keep reading something you're already gathered as if if you were trying to process it too central nervous fatigue kicks in ... because you're just pissing off your poor brain

Hence we should take advantage of our short-term gathering phase: by "gathering" and "absorbing" as many information we can during the day. Then just let the learning occur, when the data will be processed. Spending too much time over a goal is useless because 1) you're not taking advantage of the only thing you can do "gathering"
2) you're trying to do something you can't do "learning it"

The people I know who have taken advantage of this basic physiological fact can "gather" hundreds of info the same day by just reading them twice and have all of the info gathered learned at the end of the week. If we applied that to school we could have a primary school made of just two years and a high junior school made of just one year. In other words at 9 we would have already learned the accademical information that we (following the school curricula) learn will have learned at 15

I know this can come as a shock to all the people who have been wrongly taught otherwise by the truth, the physiological truth is that we don't learn we don't have the power and means to. We just pick up neutral information from the brain. The brain learns ... and does it when we're unconscious.

[ramseytheii]

Thanks for the Provocative post Elfboy.  Obviously you know much more about the technical details than I, but I wish to compare a few of your comments with personal experience to try and get more information.

That would be a disaster. Yeah that's what we see in movies and so but the human body doesn't work like this. The moment lactate kicks in and you feel like you can't go on if you're just pushed not to stop you're just sabotating your whole effort and endangering your health. This is especially true of resistance training where what you need is very small lacerations of the muscle fibers and not collapsed hypoglycogenic muscles.

I suppose it all rests on from what point of view.  From this point of view, obviously you are right.  But to those who are unaccustomed to achieving a goal in either exercise or practicing, at the first sign of fatigue, which can be within minutes, they will give up.  So from the point of view of inspiration, one has to not stop at this first sign, but when a reasonable goal is achieved.  For exercising this can clearly be determined from a scientific point of view, which you proved.  For your theories on the brain later on, I am much less convinced.

Frustration can also come from being out of your short-term gathering phase (and only our body at night can go in the processing phase) and still trying to force information in your short-term saturated brains. In other words fatigue (which is central nervous system fatigue) and frustration (which is probably forcing a brain when it has reached its central nervous system fatigue threshold) are probably the same thing

We must just be referring to different things.  I think we can all relate to the frustration of not getting something right, and then the process of dedicated work, and then getting it right, even in the same sitting.  I don't know how you would call that, but I think frustration is an adequate word.

After all lazyness in itself is just a sign of real fatigue or real misusage of the mental apparatus. There are many researcher and writers on learning that agree that lazyness doesn't exist, it's just the name we give to a unvoluntary neurological mechanism.

I don't know exactly what you mean by that.  Laziness not existing would depend on your definition.  If you don't feel like doing something, but are perfectly capable, that is how I would describe it.  But we also can relate to the feeling of overcoming this inital inertia, and accomplishing something.  I am always wary when these type of things are described as involuntary, because if we are referring to the same thing, we have a choice in the matter whether to do it or not.

Two important concepts come from this:

1) You can't make your muscle stronger while you're awake

2) It's absolutely not true that the more the better. The amount of stimulation the muscles need to become stronger is self-restricted. With more instead of making your muscles stronger and bigger you obtain just the opposite: your muscles become weaker and smaller

This is (being a physiological mechanism similar to our neurocerebral apparatus) applies in the same exact way to our brain and our learning too

In order for the muscles to repair, they have to be damaged.  If you don't do enough exercise to do that, they won't improve.  That is what I mean: the stopping point for people comes before "enough is enough."  We see this time and time again in students who are perfectly capable of getting something right, but at the first awareness that more effort is required, they shut down.  I feel like the 15 minute plans or however small a limit advocated by Bernhard and others aids this mentality.

In other words: we can't really learn nothing the moment we read it, observe it or analyze it (we may believe we have learned it but we haven't, learning require processing and that's something that happens only at night)
We need very short stimulations that's because the brain in gathering mode saturates itself very quickly of that same information. The reason is simple: gathering occurs very quickly .. sometimes with just one reading; but "learning" won't progress till the gathered material is processed (at night) so staying long time analyzing, reading, memorizing the same concept is useless,

Perhaps I see now where we differ, and where we actually agree.  If you are going to work on one concept for a long time, or at least longer than 10 minutes, it is indeed useless if you don't have the "short stimulations" you mentioned - but those come from looking at one concept from many different angles.  If you are just practicing it in the same rhythms, even and odd, over and over again, I agree that is useless, and abusive to the brain.  However if you are finding more and more things to stimulate you, and make productive work, even though it is the same passage, great goals can be accomplished. 

Hence we should take advantage of our short-term gathering phase: by "gathering" and "absorbing" as many information we can during the day. Then just let the learning occur, when the data will be processed. Spending too much time over a goal is useless because 1) you're not taking advantage of the only thing you can do "gathering"
2) you're trying to do something you can't do "learning it"

I don't know if we are just using different words, but it seems to me that understanding is essential to learning, and if you memorize  or "absorb" an idea, or a passage, without understanding it, or trying to udnerstand it, no amount of sleep is going to explain it for you.  It takes your own work and your own intelligence to accomplish this, not merely taking a piece of information, with no udnerstanding whatsover, and sleeping on it.

I know this can come as a shock to all the people who have been wrongly taught otherwise by the truth, the physiological truth is that we don't learn we don't have the power and means to. We just pick up neutral information from the brain. The brain learns ... and does it when we're unconscious.

To this last I really object.  If your definition of "I" doesn't include your brain, what is it?  To me, this is the apotheosis of, "All of our activities are involuntary: we cannot learn, we cannot understand, we cannot grow: our body does it for us."  Then who are "we"?  "We," if "we" exist, are just passive snails, who have to entrust everything to involuntary processes and can never accomplish anything of our own volition.

The brain doesn't learn - "we" learn, and we can teach ourselves how to improve our learning.  If we had no say in the matter, we could never learn the "wrong" way, as you provocatively state, since our brain would just do it for us; and if we did, we could never undo it - since we can't learn.

Walter Ramsey

[danny elfboy]

Thanks for the Provocative post Elfboy.  Obviously you know much more about the technical details than I, but I wish to compare a few of your comments with personal experience to try and get more information.

I suppose it all rests on from what point of view.  From this point of view, obviously you are right.  But to those who are unaccustomed to achieving a goal in either exercise or practicing, at the first sign of fatigue, which can be within minutes, they will give up.  So from the point of view of inspiration, one has to not stop at this first sign, but when a reasonable goal is achieved.  For exercising this can clearly be determined from a scientific point of view, which you proved.  For your theories on the brain later on, I am much less convinced.

We must just be referring to different things.  I think we can all relate to the frustration of not getting something right, and then the process of dedicated work, and then getting it right, even in the same sitting.  I don't know how you would call that, but I think frustration is an adequate word.

I don't know exactly what you mean by that.  Laziness not existing would depend on your definition.  If you don't feel like doing something, but are perfectly capable, that is how I would describe it.  But we also can relate to the feeling of overcoming this inital inertia, and accomplishing something.  I am always wary when these type of things are described as involuntary, because if we are referring to the same thing, we have a choice in the matter whether to do it or not.

Laziness is the product of central nervous system fatigue
Being capable globally and being capable in the exact moment are two different things
For example I'm capable of running for 15 minutes but I become uncapable of doing it I've sore legs, high fever and haven't slept for 2 days straight
Laziness is indeed the product on not being capable.
A person who feels lazy is just a person who is obeying to the fatigue of his/her central nervous system (or whole body too)
We "lazy" person says <I don't feel like doing it> but it's actually the body and the brain telling it and they really mean it, they are not in that moment able to do it

Except from the studies and theories an interesting empirical evidence is that amount of students who have always been "lazy" according to their parents and have always suffer with "apathy". When most of them pass though certain therapies involving sleeping, supplements, diets and so on so has to make their body and mind able to do those tasks the laziness completely disappear. As soon as they feel good physically and mentally they also become enthused at the idea of doing physical and mental work
Now that would become OT but it's also a fact that even those of us who are considered "healthy" are just plain sick compared to what healthy is supposed to be
For example a study showed that no one has proper hematic profile which is something that any living being should have if the lifestyle is health promoting rather than disease causing. Even though laziness has been ignored as a true health problem it is a real pathological response. It has been ignored as decays or backpain which popular belief wants to be "unavoidable" while they're human made and really pathological
Fatigue is probably one of the biggest problem of this century. The people who lament a chronic sense of fatigue from 4 years old to 100 years old are millions and they may look like lazy and apathic (also because simpler tasks like reading comics or chatting with friends is less demanding in those conditions) but the fatigue is real and it clearly affects the central nervous system too hence creating the neurological fatigue or laziness


In order for the muscles to repair, they have to be damaged.  If you don't do enough exercise to do that, they won't improve.  That is what I mean: the stopping point for people comes before "enough is enough."  We see this time and time again in students who are perfectly capable of getting something right, but at the first awareness that more effort is required, they shut down.  I feel like the 15 minute plans or however small a limit advocated by Bernhard and others aids this mentality.

Perhaps I see now where we differ, and where we actually agree.  If you are going to work on one concept for a long time, or at least longer than 10 minutes, it is indeed useless if you don't have the "short stimulations" you mentioned - but those come from looking at one concept from many different angles.  If you are just practicing it in the same rhythms, even and odd, over and over again, I agree that is useless, and abusive to the brain.  However if you are finding more and more things to stimulate you, and make productive work, even though it is the same passage, great goals can be accomplished.

 

I agree with you on this one
It's called overlearning ... and it's still a process of gathering
Let's say for a moment that you agree with me that it's the brain that does all the processing work ... yet, showing the same topic in different perspectives (in fact in all perspective possible) is still our task ... a gathering task

There's an interesting evidence with images for example
If you observe an image for 10 minutes you will remember it less better than if you has observed that image for 5 minutes and the other 5 minutes has observed the image upside down. The new perspective gives more information and hence the processing is more complete

I don't know if we are just using different words, but it seems to me that understanding is essential to learning, and if you memorize  or "absorb" an idea, or a passage, without understanding it, or trying to udnerstand it, no amount of sleep is going to explain it for you.  It takes your own work and your own intelligence to accomplish this, not merely taking a piece of information, with no udnerstanding whatsover, and sleeping on it.

To this last I really object.  If your definition of "I" doesn't include your brain, what is it?  To me, this is the apotheosis of, "All of our activities are involuntary: we cannot learn, we cannot understand, we cannot grow: our body does it for us."  Then who are "we"?  "We," if "we" exist, are just passive snails, who have to entrust everything to involuntary processes and can never accomplish anything of our own volition.

The brain doesn't learn - "we" learn, and we can teach ourselves how to improve our learning.  If we had no say in the matter, we could never learn the "wrong" way, as you provocatively state, since our brain would just do it for us; and if we did, we could never undo it - since we can't learn.

Walter Ramsey

Well ... using a real gathering example.
Let's say you're a gatherer and are supposed to go and gather fruits to provide the "processers" with the raw material to make jams, juices and so on
Let's say that you gather those fruits badly hence you let them rot, you squeeze them, you break them, you gather rotten fruits or unripe ones ...
The raw material you will give to the "processer" will just not be good enough for a good processing

You're right that understanding what you read is essential but it's still a component of gathering. To just read words without understanding their meaning is like going out to gather grapes and pick up rocks instead. Meaningless words don't go into the short term compartments where they will later processed, they just don't go anywhere ... that's because understanding the context of you gather is necessary to make it go in your short term memory

it's mostly a matter of semantic (which for me that learned english by myself a couple of years ago is even more problematic) but to phrase it better we just "learn" to the level of putting "meaningful" information in the short term memory. Only the brain at night can take that, process it properly and putting it in the long term meaningful and fruitful memory. Learning means "internalizing" an information so that every body reaction is immediately actived by that information

An example is a beginner leanring how the fingers are numbers in piano sheet
At the beginning if you say numbers to him expecting him to raise the right finger the response will be very slow. Learning implies making that response as quick as possible by having internalized not only the information but the links between that information and the physiological response to it. This internalization is something that only our brain does because we can only goes so far as putting meaninful info in the short term (uninternalized) memory

Also the brain "processes" neutrally
That's why we can learn mistake
The brain doesn't process by recognizing what is right or wrong (which is by the way neutral to the body and dependant on culture - in the case of piano playing: the culture and knowledge of playing the piano) but by "peeling" the information you have gathered and putting them into long term memory. In other words if you gather the information information the earth is flar the brain will process that and you'll internalize that.
If you gather the kinestetic information of playing with your wrist collapsed and flat fingers your brain will process that and will internalize it

You're right that our brain is "us"
I just used the word "we" versus "our brain" to point out the difference between "voluntary physiological mechanism" and "unvoluntary one"
It is still part of us but the unvoluntary processes are those that can't be controlled by our conscious and culturally biased mind

[will]

2) It's absolutely not true that the more the better. The amount of stimulation the muscles need to become stronger is self-restricted. With more instead of making your muscles stronger and bigger you obtain just the opposite: your muscles become weaker and smaller

What do you mean it is self-restricted? So long as you don't cause injury and allow your body to recover I thought the more the better.

[danny elfboy]

What do you mean it is self-restricted? So long as you don't cause injury and allow your body to recover I thought the more the better.

That's the point ... the amount of stimulation that is still healthy and don't put the body in the condition of being unable to recover is very very small. Any more than that and you're sabotaging your goals. So it's actally not the more the better, it's the more the worse.
Not differently from a drug. If you need 50 mcg a day you can't say <then the more the better> because "the more" may actually kill you

[Bob]

In terms of plain physical endurance, just work up to it, over years.  Be consistent (except piano music isn't quite consistent.  A routine can be.)  Push yourself and back off so things can heal up. 

[mdshimazu]

In terms of plain physical endurance, just work up to it, over years.  Be consistent (except piano music isn't quite consistent.  A routine can be.)  Push yourself and back off so things can heal up. 

I really don't think that you should be getting physically tired from playing piano. If you are then there's probably something wrong with how you're practicing. I always make sure i don't spend too long on a piece that is fast and loud because at a certain point you're probably damaging yourself, so I alternate that (like Liszt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody) with like Mozart or something.

[pianowelsh]

Im not advocating that with everyone i would say take 30 min sections and break between. I recommended that as the person who had the question was finding it difficult to practice that long!!! I have no problem sitting there for 5 hrs before needing a break - which I have to be carefull of because you are supposed not to sit for more than 2 hrs!!! BUT we all have diffierent levels of concentration and our levels are different at different times. For example I couldnt do 5 hrs of sightreading - id be worn out!! But if im really getting to grips with a big piece technically I have no problem sitting there that long - until I feel in control  of it. Then have a break and do something else.  MY major point really was that in spliting into sections the time you spend IT is imperative that you set yourself goals for each session!!!! that way you can see yyou are achieving something all the time. When you stop seeing results then you give up!!!

[archneko]

How is it done? I mean stamina wise. I have enough stuff to practice 5-6 hours between music and technical exercises. I just dont have the stamina. The only way I can figure to practice this much is to practice in three two hour increments, each at different times during the day. But I tire very easily.

Never ever time your practice! That is the problem with some teachers, they encourage students to play for a certain time period, like 3 hours. Any thing under 3 hours is prohibitted. This makes student time their songs, divide it to the required hours, then start playing the required times until that time is spent. Doing this cycle over and over again will make anyone mad and just burn their piano.
    Trust me, do not time your practice periods. Just play piano for the fun of it, not because anyone is making you do it. Play it when you feel like it. Its like having a girlfriend, she drives you mad because you cling on to her for dear life for whoever knows how long, and distress her. She then dumps you..... Ah never, that made no sense.