The top notes in Pathetique Adagio Cantabile

[instromp]

Bringing out the top notes seems to be a hard task to do.Putting more force into one finger and less in the others is a task on its own.I've been trying to do it so the melody can be heard, on some occasions it works and others it doesn't.My teacher told me to do this or wouldn't be playing it right.I have a recording of Richter playing this and I see what he means about the top note being brought out.Any suggestions on how to combat this obstacle would be greatly appreciated.

[steve jones]

I also find this to be quite a challenge. Chopin Op10 No3 is very similar in this area, though considerably more difficult!

Here's something I tried to get the 'feel' of putting more weight into cantabile line:

- In the RH, place fingers 1, 2, 3 on notes C, D, E.

- Have 5 waiting over the C an octave above.

- Begin to play the C, D, E using the wrist to bounce up and down.

- Once you have this going, use the weight of the arm through the little finger to play the upper C.

This way, its like playing with two hands almost. The lower notes are being played with the wrist, while the upper note is being played by the arm.

Does that make sense?

If not, I'll make you a vid to show you.

Once you get the knack of this, then you can start using it in chords generally. After a while it becomes natural and you can do it in contrapunctal stuff like the Beethoven Adagio.

SJ

[instromp]

I also find this to be quite a challenge. Chopin Op10 No3 is very similar in this area, though considerably more difficult!

Here's something I tried to get the 'feel' of putting more weight into cantabile line:

- In the RH, place fingers 1, 2, 3 on notes C, D, E.

- Have 5 waiting over the C an octave above.

- Begin to play the C, D, E using the wrist to bounce up and down.

- Once you have this going, use the weight of the arm through the little finger to play the upper C.

This way, its like playing with two hands almost. The lower notes are being played with the wrist, while the upper note is being played by the arm.

Does that make sense?

If not, I'll make you a vid to show you.

Once you get the knack of this, then you can start using it in chords generally. After a while it becomes natural and you can do it in contrapunctal stuff like the Beethoven Adagio.

SJ

I think i get what you mean.
I just tried it out a few times, this is kinda difficult thing to do
But i think im doing it wrong, it feels like im going to crush my pinky
Maybe the video would be helpful to me.

.

[steve jones]

I think i get what you mean.
I just tried it out a few times, this is kinda difficult thing to do
But i think im doing it wrong, it feels like im going to crush my pinky
Maybe the video would be helpful to me.

.

Well, I must confess that I am far from mastering this technique! But I think I know 'how' to do it... just need to train my body to do it right, lol.

I'll make a vid for you to try to show you how I mean.

SJ

[steve jones]

Here, take a look at this:

https://download.yousendit.com/EDF2BD343E497B13

This is how Iv been trying to practice. Now, due to the terrible dynamic range of my camera, it doesnt sound as if the top voice is much louder, but it is. I try to make the bottom three notes a soft and uniform as possible while keeping the upper notes strong.

Actually, Im doing this because I want to play Chopin Op48 No1! But I think it can be applied just the same to contrapunctal pieces like the Beethoven movement.

SJ

[stevehopwood]

It is ever so hard to describe in writing how to do this. There are various ones:

- turn your wrist in the direction of the melody note (right) as this transfers more weight towards the melody.
- throw your elbow outwards as you play as this transfers more arm weight towards the melody.
- drop the wrist whilst simultaneously moving it slightly to the right.
- move your little finger more quickly, and so further, than the 3rd and 2nd fingers. This makes the hammer travel more quickly and so creates a bigger sound.

Doubtless there are many others. Those I list I could show you in a couple of minutes; the written descriptions are useless except as idea generators. Try them and see if any work for you.

A more likely solution lies here. Try playing the opening of the movement without the extra note that complicates bringing out the melody = just the C on the first beat without the Ab etc. Hold your hand in the position required to play the remaining semiquavers in each crotchet group (really important to do this). Produce a really rich singing tone on the melody; you will have discovered the muscle movements you need to produce the same tone when you add back in the notes you are leaving out.

All the above over-complicates what is essentially a simple matter. Playing the piano is an aural activity. Learn to hear internally the sound you wish to create and then find ways of making your muscles create that sound. Once you can do this, you will not need teaching how to do these things.

Steve 

[steve jones]

Awesome post, thanks Steve!

Iv tried out a few of those things and they really help. For me though, I think the best one is to let the weight drop onto the little finger, while having the fingers and the wrist playing the counterpoint. I find this just feels right for me and affords me the most control.

Here's a question...

Is it typical to use pedal in this movement?

Im pretty sure the purist answer is no, but I like how it sounds with pedal, and it certainly makes it considerably easier to move from position to position.

What do you think?

SJ

[instromp]

I must agree 

Your advice on this helped a lot.
I had to play this today for a little test session we had today in school.It was considerately ok.

Letting your weight on the little finger is a great way to do this,and the lifting your elbow part also.

I have the same question as steve about the pedal.Since it's parts are slured, wouldn't that suggest to use pedal,maybe ?

[stevehopwood]

Glad to have been a help.   

On the topic of using the pedal in this movement, it would never occur to me not to use it. Here is why.

Although we call the right pedal the 'sustaining' pedal, this is a bit of a misnomer. The true purpose of this pedal is to enhance our tone.

Try this: press and hold the pedal. Play a loud C major chord of 7 notes (LH CEGC, RH EGC); hold the notes down with your fingers and let go of the pedal. The sound from the piano will lighten considerably. This happens because pressing the sustaining pedal lifts the dampers off the strings, so they are free to resonate whenever the piano is involved in some playing activity. By playing the chord with the pedal already depressed, we allow the rest of the strings to resonate. The instant we raise the pedal, these resonating strings are dampened and so we are left with only the sound of the keys we are still holding down.

The true use of the 'sustaining' pedal is therefore to enhance the quality of the tone we are producing. The fact that it also allows us to create a legato in situations where it would otherwise be impossible is merely a happy and useful extra.

Time and again, I demonstrate to my students the difference in tone between when I make a melody sing without using the pedal, then with. They always hear the added richness this creates. instromp and steve, you have found how to make your muscles create the singing tone. Try it now first with, then without using the pedal and you will hear the difference in the richness of tone quality you can create.

'Authenticity' can be something of a red herring here. Ok, so Beethoven composed this piece to be performed on a small, square fortepiano. When a modern pianist performs it on a modern full-sized concert grand, he is as far from Beethoven's instrument as is a jet plane from a bicycle. A modern pianist's job is to create the best sound s\he can on the instrument on which the performance is given, so we will use every resource available.

I just wish Beethoven had the opportunity to play a modern Steinway grand. He would have died a happy man. Experiment with that pedal and have fun; it is a wonderful tool/

Steve 

Extra note: anyone not convinced about the resonating qualities of the piano try this. Press and hold the sustaining (right) pedal, then wallop the piano with the palm of your hand. The resulting din from inside the instrument should be enough to persuade you that the pedal releases a lot resonance 

[instromp]

You have enlightened my pianistict mind  ..THanks

[steve jones]

Indeed, and made the next few weeks of my life alot easier 

SJ

[stevehopwood]

Shame I cannot make your life financially richer as well. Hey ho. Some things are beyond me. 

You guys sound up for some experimentation, so try playing around with these ideas.

When considering how to use our bodies to create beautiful sounds at the piano, that sustaining pedal is our biggest friend; it allows us to play without needing constant contact with the keys. This frees up our arms.

My students describe me as 'stroking' and 'caressing the keys'. They are right - that is exactly what I do. This comes from the freedom of arm movement that I have, courtesy of that pedal.

Place your fingers on the keys and then take all the weight off your hands. The muscles of your upper arms will hold them in place. Your elbows, wrists and knuckles only do just enough work to stop your hands falling off the keyboard. Play a few random chords, using the techniques you have discovered to bring out the melody on top. Stroke into the keys and then out again, loosing contact with the keys - think stroking a cat, perhaps - and using the pedal to create the legato.

You will be using the weight or your arm to enhance the tone you are creating. Applying this to the Beethoven, you can release the melody note as soon as the pedal has caught it. Keep a light, 'floaty' arm as you play and you can use the extra weight  of your arm to enhance the movements your are already using.

Bar 2 demands that you hold the melody note with your finger because of the harmony change on the second beat. Imagine the freedom you have in bar 3 though; to be able to release the C Eb Ab Bb melody notes makes it so much easier to make the next one sing.

Now try being really bold. Chopin described the middle finger as the melody finger; this makes sense as it is the longest one. Try the F minor section starting at bar 17. Play all the RH melody notes (apart from the really quick ones) with your middle finger. Use the weight of your arm to control the sound (stroke that cat again  ) and the pedal to create the legato. The effect is magical when you get it right. You might not want to play the passage this way all the time - that depends on the speed at which you play the movement.

How much difference all this makes to your tone at the start depends on a variety of factors: how quickly the movements can become natural; how well you can listen to your  own playing and discern the differences; how good your instrument is - these differences are more and more significant the better your piano is.

What you are doing when you start thinking about all this is entering a sound world that is fabulous and beautiful, and that we pianists can spend a lifetime enhancing. Free up your body and your mind and harness them to create the beauty you crave. Have fun.

Steve