Voiceleading in Chopin Nocturnes

[steve jones]

Hey all,
Im looking at Chopin Noct 27-2, and Im trying to work out how best to interpret the presentation of harmony.

First up I looked at it like a simple melody with a broken accompaniment. Simple enough right? I rewrote the first few bars as a waltz, and it worked just fine.

But then I began to look at it more like a four part counterpoint! I set it out in four part open score and it seemed to make so much sense.

My question is, how is this kind of music typically analysed? Is it thought of a simple homophonic arrangement, or rather a four part polyphony?

I prefer the later, personally. Especially when you look at another example - Chopin Noct 72-1, where the upper voices of the accompaniment act like a pedal! I do have illustrative examples in score, but theyre on another computer unfortunately and I dont have them. Will get them posted when I can.

What do you guys reckon?

SJ

[m1469]

Hi, Steve .  I would be interested to see your sheets if that were somehow possible. I am also curious what you mean by having re-written it as waltz.  What does that mean, exactly ?  That you put it in 3/4 time ?

Cheers,
m1469

[steve jones]

m1469,

Hmmm, I will see what I can do. Right now Im having a few hardware problems, eek! All my studio gear and software is on one computer, and the internet is on another.

But with respects to the waltz, I just put it in 3/4, then I changed the accompaniment (using the same notes) so resemble one of Chopin's waltz's. It sound alright actually! But I think that melody (with its wonderful decorations) is way better suited to the Nocturne form.

With respects to my question, yeah, it would be much easier to illustrate if I could post my scores. I'll do my best to get that sorted tommorow.

What I was thinking about is whether these broken accompaniments could be looked upon as a number of contrapunctal voices? The bass on the first beat, then the other voices playing subsequently. I made a four part arrangement of the same notes as Chopin used (the only difference being the presentation on the score). You could use this I guess as a chamber or SATB arrangement, but I did it to illustrate the arrangement of the voices.

SJ

[m1469]

Steve, I actually have no idea how you would write this out in any kind of multiple-voice "counterpoint."  There are some areas where the rhythms are split, and there are ties in part of the harmony where there is movement in other parts, but I still don't find this cause for titling the musical style as "counterpoint," as one would do with Bach's inventions or fugues, for example.  I think you would agree with that.

Summarizing some thoughts from the counterpoint book by Kennan that I am currently reading through :

There are two general categories of counterpoint; "Strict" and "Free".  In strict counterpoint, there is a fixed voice in whole notes, against which another voice is written.  (Perhaps the 18th measure of Op 27, no 1 could be some example of this).  In strict counterpoint, there could be one note against the fixed note, or two notes against the fixed note, and so on.  The emphasis of this style of counterpoint is on vertical intervals and on the "motion of the added voice in relation to the fixed note," versus metrical pulse and harmonic implications.

"Free counterpoint" is based on 18th C. instrumental models and has more of an emphasis on meter and harmonic implications.

Supposedly all music can be considered as some kind of counterpoint and it's said that harmony and counterpoint are basically two different ways of talking about the same thing.

To be honest, I am not really sure what your question is.  Are you asking if this music IS counterpoint ?  Or are you wanting to know about voice-leading ?  The two are, of course, related, but I don't get what you want to know, exactly.

Hope that's slightly helpful.


m1469

[steve jones]

Steve, I actually have no idea how you would write this out in any kind of multiple-voice "counterpoint."  There are some areas where the rhythms are split, and there are ties in part of the harmony where there is movement in other parts, but I still don't find this cause for titling the musical style as "counterpoint," as one would do with Bach's inventions or fugues, for example.  I think you would agree with that.

Summarizing some thoughts from the counterpoint book by Kennan that I am currently reading through :

There are two general categories of counterpoint; "Strict" and "Free".  In strict counterpoint, there is a fixed voice in whole notes, against which another voice is written.  (Perhaps the 18th measure of Op 27, no 1 could be some example of this).  In strict counterpoint, there could be one note against the fixed note, or two notes against the fixed note, and so on.  The emphasis of this style of counterpoint is on vertical intervals and on the "motion of the added voice in relation to the fixed note," versus metrical pulse and harmonic implications.

"Free counterpoint" is based on 18th C. instrumental models and has more of an emphasis on meter and harmonic implications.

Supposedly all music can be considered as some kind of counterpoint and it's said that harmony and counterpoint are basically two different ways of talking about the same thing.

To be honest, I am not really sure what your question is.  Are you asking if this music IS counterpoint ?  Or are you wanting to know about voice-leading ?  The two are, of course, related, but I don't get what you want to know, exactly.

Hope that's slightly helpful.


m1469

Hey m1469,

Yeah, I am sorry for the vagueness of my question, I know I am not making it easy to discuss a possible solution! I am very aware that Im probably NOT explaining myself clearly at all. Let me try again.

First, up...

I am familiar with counterpoint, its rules etc. Iv not studied it extensively, but I did study the Fux book, the Bach chorals, the Bach Inventions, some preludes and fugues etc.

In a Bach choral, I always get the impression that the harmony, while forming chords, is very linear. By this I mean that the chords seem to be the result of the voice leading, rather than stacking of notes. When I studied species counterpoint, the main priority seemed to be achieving the full triad (usually) while observing the rules and achieving smooth and tasteful voice leading. The linear being equally as important to the horizontal... sometimes more so!

When I look at many of Chopin's Nocturnes, I initially saw homophonic textures - the melody in the treble, with stacked harmonies (be it 'broken') taken by the left hand. Right?

But when I look closer, and analyse some other pieces, I begin to wonder if what we have doesnt closer resemble the linear style. By this, I mean that perhaps these broken chords are comprised of more than just stacked notes, and are actually a set of voices moving in a more linear manner.

The E minor nocturne is a perfect example of what I mean. You have a pedal point in there, you have stepwise movement of the bass, then you have this repetitive figure in the tenor.

I rewrote the first phrase in several ways to try to come to a decision:

https://download.yousendit.com/9CCF02693F5FBB78

Have a look and listen to these examples. They are each little reworks or retranscriptions of the original music. The purpose of which was to understand the nature of the harmonic texture - to me, these are more than just simple homophonic melody with supporting accompaniment. Hopefully these will illustrate a little better what Im failing to articulate in words!

Take a look at the first example - here I have taken the original music but transcribed it to illustrate my interpretation of the voicing with in the accompaniment. Perhaps others will perceive this differently, but this is my 'take' on it.

With the second example, I have tried to make sense of these voices arranging them as an open stacked chord, with a single contrapunctal line. Again, this is how it sounds to me, particularly given that these first three notes of the accompanying figure so often make an open score triad.

The third example is a reduction to four parts. I found it interesting to the pedal on B, along with the often stepwise motion of the bass. This reminded me greatly of the C18th counterpoint!

My question is...

How do you perceive the voicing with in these broken accompaniments?

Id be interested to hear your thoughts on what Iv done here, with respects to the analysis.

Iv also included a little rewrite of Op27 No2 in a waltz form. Its just the first few bars.

An apologies for a few dodgy note groupings! Im using Cubase and the score editor gives me hell, lol.

Cheers,

SJ

[m1469]

ha ha... well, I have not studied the Fux book nor the Bach chorals, and I am not really sure that I even know what the "rules" are for counterpoint.  It will actually take me a little while to digest your last post .   And actually, thinking in this particular way does not come super easily for me (though, I can get quite good at it and have experienced that before.  I just have to be extremely meticulous and that ends up taking (sometimes A LOT of) time).

But, what I really want to say is that I cannot access your download.  My computer will not allow it since it doesn't know what program formed it (and I *never* know how to find the right one... yadda yadda).

So, thoughtfully yours,
m1469

[pianowolfi]

But, what I really want to say is that I cannot access your download.  My computer will not allow it since it doesn't know what program formed it (and I *never* know how to find the right one... yadda yadda).

I think you need winrar

https://www.rarlab.com/rar/wrar362.exe

Hope this helps!

[steve jones]

Oh, sorry, yeah I packed it with Winrar!

Its like Winzip but doesnt give you such a pain in the backside to 

There are a couple of little mp3's and a few Cubase generated scores.

I know what you mean about it being difficult. Thats pretty much why Im so interested! Its the real nuts and bolts of the music, hehe, I love it!

I actually began to think about this when I tried to orchestrate one of the Nocturnes. Suddenly I was faced with all these decisions regarding voicing. And I began to notice that these broken accompaniments arent just broken chords and sweeping arpeggios - they are actually made from various parts, indepedantly moving within the same figure.

Its so cool, and Im convinced it is part of what makes Chopin's music so satisfying. Its like the perfect middle ground between homophony and polyphony!

SJ