2007 hooters calendar

[pianistimo]

a freind of my husband's e-mailed it to him.  it's all pics of owls.  yes.  owls.

[pianistimo]

perhaps it was an updated version of the one above?

[thalbergmad]

Hooters has a completely different meaning in England.

[bench warmer]

Made me look

Disappointed

[gilad]

i was expecting something a little hotter! And hootier.

[pianistimo]

what can be hotter than a snowy owl.  the first time i saw one turn his head completely around 180 degrees - i was stunned.  i didn't know owls could do that.

[thalbergmad]

I am sure you could do it too with a little assistance.

Any takers??

Thal

[pianistimo]

?  next topic.

[thalbergmad]

Moses and Akhenaten?

[elspeth]

Thal, behave!

I love owls - I've only seen one snowy owl in the wild and it was sitting on a branch just out of decent-photograph range looking smug...

[thalbergmad]

I like owls too, but i do not believe they are a wise breed as i often here.

I az never seen one doing the Times crossword. They just sit around looking cute.

Thal

[opus10no2]

I like the natural look, implants would just ruin the perfect proportions.

Thal, what kind of bird do you get when you stick it in the fridge?

A blue tit...

Stick it in a californian cosmetic hospital..

A great tit.

fine birds...

[lichristine]

Moses and Akhenaten?

Akhenaten was strange....fascinating, but his political influence and changes were short-lived.
his wife was  HOT.

[steve jones]

Ok, I will admit to be SLIGHTLY disappointed 

Not that I dont like owls, but...

SJ

[pianistimo]

i've never seen an owl with a boob job.  but, then, there's always a first for everything.   

[thalbergmad]

I like the natural look, implants would just ruin the perfect proportions.

true, i totally supported The Sun when they went silicone free.

Thal

[pianistimo]

speaking of the sun - akenhaten was the guy who changed the worship of egypt to one god -aten, right?

i'm still not thinking along the same lines as you, yet.  as i see it, if imhotep was the builder of the first pyramid for the purpose of grainary holding and also married the priest of 'on's' daughter - which is acceptable to the time period...and also mentioned as aseneth's father (a priest of on) and also named variously tiyi and asklepios I - then i should like to date it much EARLIER.  good reading on this period of time:  emmit sweeney's 'the genesis of israel and egypt'  1997

also, according to places in the bible - you can date both forwards and backwards to get the idea of a general time frame.  (although scholars widely disagree with each other's methods).

now tuthmosis (has the name mosis in it to begin with).  tuthmosis the I was probably the king that raised moses himself (being that he was the ONLY son of this particular pharoah and granted a lot of power) - but after he killed the egyptian (thus whip which was found - in one kings grave) he was ostracized.  tuthmosis II , according to the story would be the succesor put into place by those in power to maintain order over the hebrews.  he would have been the one to force them into laboring to build what was later known as pithom and ramses.  then, he dies.  amazingly AROUND PASSOVER.

J. de Miceli (1960) considers the date exactly April 9, 1495 BC.  tuthmosis II was reigning in egypt at the time and was likely the pharoah who endured the plagues.  his mummy had lesions of the skin (possibly the boils of spoken of in the exodus) and even his successor (if it was leprosy) had it also.  tuthmosis III succeeded - but would not have been an actual firstborn of that king - because all the firstborn died.  tuthmosis III obelisk now stands in central park NYC.   it would be interesting to have it transcribed by an egyptologist because it most likely would tell the story of the exodus right on the obelisk.  'isrir' being israel. 

[pianistimo]

ps there are several traditions that hatshepsut was the princess (daughter and sole legitimate heir to the throne) who drew moses out of the water.  she was one of the daughters of tuthmosis I (who didn't have any sons and was therefore interested in saving this one child of unknown origin - moses - named by her).  when her father died - the custom was to allow only males to be heir to the throne - so she married her 1/2 brother (son from another wife of tuthmosis I) tuthmosis II.  she was fairly old at the reign of tuthmosis III and even reigned for a period of 15-16 years (if i remember right) as it seemed there was some intruege going on.

it is interesting that on her bust (her head not her bust) - there is no snake.  i think she believed moses to be 'divinely' sent and was reigning at first in his place as she believed he was from God and not the tuthmosis that replaced him.  she probably worshipped the true God after all that she saw.  her first taking moses from the water.  raising him.  losing him for a time.  seeing him again.  and seeing directly the power that he had from God.  tuthmosis II died mysteriously.  the bible says that he (if it was this pharoah) died in the red sea.   they probably found his body later - thus burying it at a later point in the tombs of the other kings (where his mummy was found). 

i think that hatshepsut was murdered by tuthmosis III when he did not want to listen to what she had to say about moses (even though much is probably recorded by him).  but, it seems that everything to do with hatshepsut was defaced and he tried to destroy her history.

[thalbergmad]

tuthmosis III obelisk now stands in central park NYC.   it would be interesting to have it transcribed by an egyptologist because it most likely would tell the story of the exodus right on the obelisk.  'isrir' being israel. 

It has been and it don't.

Amazing, as your logic and historical scholarship would appear to be faultless.

I would start a new thread if i were you.

I feel like an angler who has just landed a catch, but is forced by decency to throw the tiddlers back.

Thal

[ahinton]

true, i totally supported The Sun when they went silicone free.

Thal

You mean that they stopped using computers? I had no idea...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I feel like an angler who has just landed a catch, but is forced by decency to throw the tiddlers back.

Thal

Given that this was a reply to "pianistimo" - who was doubtless busy contemplating when, how and at what speed to remove her glamorous strappy high heeled sandals for you as she read it - Morris West's The Shoes of the Fisherman suddenly and inevitably came to mind as I did so...

How many 10 dollar bills are we up to now? I've lost count...

Best,

Alistair

[lichristine]

speaking of the sun - akenhaten was the guy who changed the worship of egypt to one god -aten, right?

Yes. The sexless sungod. Statues of Akhenaten are VERY different from the idealized Egyptian man-god the other pharaohs chose t be portrayed as. Instead, he shows himself as a being with both male and female characteristics. Some historians believe he was trying to portray himself as Aten.

[jakev2.0]

check out these fine tits.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds/guide/g/greattit/index.asp

[pianistimo]

yes. akenhaten sufferred from a disease, too.  forget what it was called - but some of his progeny also had it.  (unless this is  incorrect - but his bust shows a real bust - if you know what i  mean).

www.aloha.net/mikesch/moses.htm  (use that curvy line before mikesch to get the site - forget what that thingy is called.  my computer won't input it for some odd reason).

i think this is a site which explains some reasoning for dating back to tuthmosis I II and III.  part of it is that right before tuthmosis I - we have amenhotep - which was possibly the pharoah who raise imhotep to vizier (joseph - the man who worshipped the great I AM - or IM hotep) to power and needed help with the seven year famine.  this is why the step pyramid was built!  to house a grainary.  www.touregypt.net/featurestories/dsteppyramid1.htm

also, many places speak of hatsepshut (the daughter of tuthmosis I) as possible princess that drew moses from the nile.  even the name mosis - is common (which she named him) for that period of time because tuthmosis = the god tuth - and mosis = son born of

now, one could say - well, ramses also has 'mses' or moses - but as thal pointed out earlier - the dating is far off from what we could rationalize from the time of the pharoah of joseph's time.  they have to exist in a logical time order.  also, the dating from the first king of israel - counting backwards - would also date the time to where it would be in the period of the kings. 

memphis was where the capital and where the saqqara? pyramid of joseph was built and where the israelites stayed and worked later.  it all sort of fits together like a puzzle.  i don't really know yet what the obelisk of tuthmosis III says - but i have an idea that egyptians wanted to get rid of it for some odd reason.  it was in alexandria and moved to nyc about the time that the suez canal was being built.  a gift from egypt. 

[pianistimo]

the great tit is a very pretty bird.  wonder how birds are named now.  did adam do this?

[timothy42b]

I've always wondered how they built the pyramids without noticing (or stopping for) Noah's flood, which had to have occurred right in the middle of construction. 

[pianistimo]

noah was way before abraham and issac and jacob - and subsequently joseph.  and, yet, abrahams wife sarah was considered beautiful by one of the much earlier pharoahs.  so if it were dated chronologically - we could almost figure that one out, too.

i think earlier 'pharoah's' were called 'kings.'  noah lived 350 years additional after the flood.  that would mean he would have lived while his son ham would have had several generations (as mentioned in the book of nations - genesis 10).  'and the sons of ham were cush and mizraim and put and canaan.  and the sons of cush were seba and havilah and sabtah and raamah and sabteca; and the sons of raamah were sheba and dedan.  now cush became the father of nimrod; he became a mighty one on the earth...'

nimrod built probably the first ziggaurat (pyramid) - but much different looking that the step pyramid of joseph (imhotep).   

[imbetter]

wow pianistimo why do you want a HOOTERS calender.

you do know it wasnt meant to be owls right?

[pianistimo]

i didn't say i wanted one.  i said my husband was e-mailed one by a friend.  why would i want one.  i think it would be rather odd.  unless - unless it were owls.  i love birds.  and audubon trail is not far from here.  it's a peaceful thing to see lots of birds.  there was a birdfeeder in the backyard when we moved here - so i fill it up whenever i remember to.

[timothy42b]

noah was way before abraham and issac and jacob - and subsequently joseph.  and, yet, abrahams wife sarah was considered beautiful by one of the much earlier pharoahs.  so if it were dated chronologically - we could almost figure that one out, too.

Nah.  Both Egyptian and Chinese history go back 5,000 years, well before the supposed flood, and don't mention it. 

I guess they must have built the pyramids under water, huh? 

[pianistimo]

why under water?  the flood was only for fourty days.  but, it would have destroyed much in it's path.  which of the pyramids are you referring to?

[rebby]

nope, i am not a big fan of owls myself, yeah they are pretty, but i find them rather annyoing, and you can only find them in limited places, but oh well.

[pianistimo]

they tie with cats in terms of rodent reduction.  not sure about big boobs. 

[timothy42b]

why under water?  the flood was only for fourty days.  but, it would have destroyed much in it's path.  which of the pyramids are you referring to?

I'm guessing even an Egyptian couldn't hold his breath for forty days.  After everybody had been killed, wouldn't it take many years to repopulate Egypt from Noah's children, have them somehow become Egyptian instead of Jewish, then figure how (and why) to resume a pyramid building program from scratch?  All without leaving a trace of evidence?

Besides, you're wrong on the forty days.  It was more than a year.  Although it is a bit confusing.   If you go back and read it carefully, you will realize there are two flood stories, just like there are two separate creation accounts.  The creation accounts are split in Gen 1 and Gen 2, while the flood accounts mingle a little, but if you look you'll see.  That explains some of the anomalies.  For example, how many pairs of animals on the ark?  One account says one pair.  But the P source specifies 7 pairs of clean animals.  The reason is that the P source emphasized the need to sacrifice and give thanks after landing, and realized that would eliminate the surviving animal, removing it permanentally from Earth's available kinds.  Therefore P added 6 pair just to be sure. 

[ahinton]

they tie with cats in terms of rodent reduction.  not sure about big boobs. 

Yes, but one of my cats once caught and killed an owl. As to the extent of the possible rôle of big boobs in rodent reduction, I'm entirely out of my depth there, not being either an authority on either subject of able to perceive the faintest connection between the two...

Best,

Alistair

[timothy42b]

Just to put the flood in perspective:

The greatest pyramid building period in Egypt was from 2650 to 2150 BC or BCE, depending on your preference.  Most of the 100 or so existing pyramids were built then but slower regular construction continued through about 1759 BC, with the latest ones dating to 1514.

The Noachian flood dates to 2350 BC, right in the middle of the busiest construction period. 

How did the Egyptians miss it? 

[pianistimo]

on the site that i found about egypt - it seems that the idea for the step pyramid (one of the earliest) was based on joseph's idea of it to hold grain.  basically a grainary.  and then later it was established as an idea of a place to bury the dead. 

babylon's ziggurat was probably the first structure to have a sort of similar shape - and yet different.  windy.  steps going around to the top. 

which egyptian pyramid do you think was built first?  what date does it have?

the flood was very early in the history of the bible.  if four thousand years went by before the crucifixion - then we have ample time to have a flood AND pyramids.

the noatian flood, according to genesis would be approx. 2350 or exactly 2344 if you count the generations given in the bible (gen 5 - each man to the birth of his first son) and subtract this number from 4000 (the years to Christ).  one scholar dates the exodus about 1495 BC under tuthmosis II and 400 or so years earlier - joseph (imhotep) would have built the first step pyramid as a grainary. 

ramses II and others came later - so how could it be that the most extensive period of building was so early?

[thalbergmad]

your dates seem EXTREMELY early for any pyramids at all.  i mean, if the israelites were exiting egypt around 1495 BC then - joseph (imhotep's) first step pyramid was only 400 or so years earlier - that would only be 1800 BC.

on the site that i found about egypt - it seems that the idea for this pyramid was based on joseph's idea of it to hold grain.  basically a grainary.  and then later it was established as an idea of a place to bury the dead. 

babylon's ziggurat was probably the first structure to have a sort of similar shape - and yet different.  windy.  steps going around to the top. 

which egyptian pyramid do you think was built first?  what date does it have?

Well, i suppose the first good attempt was djosers step pyramid which is dated to around 2750BC.

I have not read through my "pyramid" books for sometime and have forgotten a lot of what i read. I have never heard before that the pyramid was josephs idea to hold grain. I think you are teetering on the fringe again with that one.

There is some fascinating evidence that the 3 pyramids at Giza are far older than the 2650 BC sometimes attributed. There is no real reason to attach the building to Cheops, Khafre & Menkaure other than a bit of Egyptian graffiti. These pyramids are far in advance of any others and some claim that the layout was an attempt to copy the position of the stars of Orions belt. The positioning is close enough to be interesting, but not exact.

Some tests have been undertaken on the Sphinx which indicates it has suffered some form of long term water erosion. This has caused some Egyptologists to give a date of construction of approx 10,500 BC. In addition, there is some important astronomical & astrological alignments that gives extra credence to this theory.

I am typing from memory and may be a little off the mark, but my interest has been rekindled sufficiently to dig through my library.

This is a shame as i don't think i will get to finish my 17th Jack the Ripper book.

Thal

[pianistimo]

one problem in dating is misinterpretation of ancient records.  i looked up 'palermo stone' in which has been much excitement about dating things from.  this is what i found out

www.touregypt.net/featurestories/palermo.htm

the palermo stone chronicals mythical kings until the time of horus (so they are adding in mythical numbers to real) who is said to have given the throne to the human king menes.

'however, it is likely that the stone ACTUALLY refers to biennial cattle census, rather than the actual number of years that the kings reigned.'

i do read everyone's messages and then go and do my own research.  it appears to me that the great pyramid for khufu was built in the fourth dynasty (after the third - in which joseph was said to have built the earlier step pyramid).  if the step pyramid was built around 1895 BC  this is well after the flood of 2344 BC  (and plenty of time for other constructions prior to this).  also, it would account for the repopulation of the world.  if it came too close to noah - the bible would not be proven accurate.

so we have records of different kings reigning - but are not sure the exact lengths of the reigns.  this is not a religious site.  it is an egyptian tour site.

[thalbergmad]

one problem in dating is misinterpretation of ancient records. 

Indeed, and i wish sometimes that you would acknowledge that the Bible is not exempt from this.

1895BC is far to late for the step pyramid and how did you come to a flood date of 2344BC?.

Again, when you enter into a debate already "knowing" the answer, you are only going to consider evidence that supports the Bible.

You have dismayed me as i thought you were becoming more reasonable.

Thal

[pianistimo]

thal, what is unreasonable is your not giving proof for your side.  my proof is the bible.  yours is not founded yet.  you have to cite the source, the scholar, and the reason why they believed the date to be accurate.

what i have found is that many scholars differ (who do not believe the bible) -but the ones that DO believe the bible accept that the history of israel and egypt were synonymous.  that israel was living in canaan first and then moved into egypt after joseph.  the reason that i believe dating different populations at the same time is helpful - is you have a double record.  we see that the israelites were 'conquored' in egyptian records (as they like to put it)...but what happened is that there was a famine and that these people were forced to come and labor because egypt had the grain.

the bible is truthful and can give dates for the flood.  if you start with genesis 5 - adam lived 130 years before he had seth.  the dates are given for each man until the birth of his first son - and then also how many years he lived after that (not necessary for dating flood).  so we add up all the numbers of each man to the birth of his first son.

130
105
  90
  70
  65
162
   65
187
182
(finally we add noah's age - which is given in genesis 7:6 'now noah was 600 years old when the flood of water came upon the earth).
so- adding all this up = 1656

there are approx. 4000 years of biblical history to the time of Christ according to chronologies.  4000-1656=2344 BC

[pianistimo]

sorry if i sound pigheaded.  i'm really not trying to be.  and, i attempt to understand and read what you say - especially about the sphynx.  for some reason -i didn't think it was dated older than joseph's time.  were the tombs so sealed that no water could hurt the mummies?

[timothy42b]

No, Susan's date of 2344 is commonly accepted as correct by those who believe in a Noachian flood and literal Biblical interpretation.

Unfortunately there are a number of cultures with historical records going back before that, and no flood interruption is detected.  Egyptian, Sumerian, and Chinese come to mind.

Interestingly enough there are no Jewish cultures.  Archaeology (and the modern Israelis are fanatical archaeologists) can detect no trace this early. 

So, pp, which of Noah's sons do you claim fathered the entire race of Egyptians?

It is true that giving exact dates to events 5,000 years ago is difficult.  But we have some written records, large amounts of archaeological materal, large amounts of radioactive decay dated material (which everybody agrees is accurate in this time span), and a small amount of inferential astronomical data, all of which converge on the same dates.   

[ahinton]

Owls. (Just thought I'd make a brief side reference to the thread topic, if no one minds...).

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

The owl and the pussycat 

See?  From tiny acorns do mighty oak trees grow 

[timothy42b]

Owls. (Just thought I'd make a brief side reference to the thread topic, if no one minds...).

Best,

Alistair

Tastes like chicken.

[ahinton]

The owl and the pussycat 

As it happens, I already cracked that joke when first I referred to this bloody incident elsewhere on this forum a while back, as in "the owl and the pussycat - a very short story"...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Is not a joke.  Its is a comment on the propensity of threads to go off on a tangent.

Owls ---->owl and pussycat----->runcible spoons----->God----->God------>you're crazy----->I'm leaving------>  etc etc etc

[wishful thinker]

Tastes like chicken.

[thalbergmad]

my proof is the bible. 

That is not proof and if you believe everything in the Old Testament, i honeslty truly feel sorry for you.

You are missing out on much.

Thal