"I won't do it"

[pizno]

I have this charming little 8 year old, and we have a pretty good relationship.  The other day she was doing some exercises and I said 'see if you can make a smile with your wrist', trying to move her away from strictly using her fingers.  She kind of went stoney and said 'No'.  Okaayyyyy, then.  I tried to make light of it and encouraged her in a very friendly way to try it, and explained that in piano you don't just use your fingers, you use your wrists, arms, and back.  She said 'No, I'm just going to use my fingers'.  We went back and forth a few times - I felt myself getting a little hot under the collar.  This was such an odd and unexpected exchange, I was a bit thrown by it. Part of me thought I should let it go, the other part thought - this was just a teensy bit disrespectful and she needed to know I wasn't going to let her go that easily.  I asked her if she was ready for her lesson to be over(mean teacher, mean teacher) and she said no. In the end, she kind of used her wrist half-heartedly and I let it go, with plenty of praise.  Even though she's a very nice girl, she does sometimes seem as if she is testing me - 'diddling' on the keyboard even after I ask her to stop repeatedly, throwing her body back on the piano bench.  I'm hoping if I can just keep her focused she will get over this annoying phase.  My overall feeling was 'Where did THAT come from?'.  Sure, she could be having a bad day, she could have been tired of doing exercises, but, really.

[pianowolfi]

Uh oh this makes some bells ring in my memory I have had several cases of refusing childs and each case was different. And I admit that this is a really vulnerable spot of mine The worst case was a girl who refused at all. Everything. I just waited and told her okay I have time, I'll wait until you do it. I waited and waited. And she won. I immediately stopped lessons. Because she did actually NOT want to practise NOR to play the piano at all. So it did not depend of what i did or tried to do but only from her will to do it or not. And she had chosen not. After me she had another teacher. And after a while this other teacher told me that she fired this girl as well. Though this teacher was MUCH more experienced than I was at that time. Big relief

Well but this was the worst case. Sometimes they refuse just because they sense that you resist on something. Then let it go for this time. Change subject. Persuasions are something I avoid as far as possible. One of the most common reasons for refusing something is that they think something is "hard" or difficult. And often (So have I learned) insisting makes it worse. Try to find deviations and sideways. But this is still one of the questions in teaching I am not at all done with yet.

[nsvppp]

I'm not a teacher. But when I go back in my memory, that even as a young girl, I always had a keen sense when people tried to trick me into doing something, while asking something else. A smiling wrist is obviously not what you want from her. She knows that. Perhaps she would prefer an explanation why you ask it and a direct question to make that movement.

 

[brahms4me]

Don't let her get the best of you.  Have her mother sit in on some lessons and see if the behaviour continues.  Talk to the mom and dad and see if she's going through a "season" of testing boundaries - chances are, she is.  If the behavior continues for awhile, then there is   a problem and she's acting it out at the lesson. 

Continue to be gentle but firm and when she begins acting like this do a physical activity like marching to the rhythm of the piece while you play, have her stand up facing you - clap some rhythms and then have her repeat them.  Just get her off the bench and have her do something with her body.  That might just take her mind off what's bothering.  At least it's worth a try.

[hyrst]

I agree with everything that has already been said, but I would add one thing.  If you want to keep authority and respect with another, NEVER engage in a head to head battle on a topic you can't see through - if it is something you can't 'make' somebody do, don't take the responsibility for them doing or not doing it by arguing about it. 

Do ask, and then if you get a refusal, and you have explained things properly, then just say something to pass it off and let it go - stay in control, don't fight for control.  Come back to it later. 

If she can't see the need to do something new, then she is not going to put in the extra work - but maybe she'll be in a more receptive mood another time.  Let her know that it is your choice not to keep asking her to do it - not becuase she is refusing.  Maybe say something like, "I can see you aren't ready to try that yet, so we will look at it later - it will make it easier for you to play this passage, though.  Let me know when you are ready, but I will talk about it again next lesson."

If she continues to refuse to do things you ask, let her know she is choosing not to improve.  It is her responsiblility - your do need to communicate with the parents if things keep going this way.

[danny_sequel]

Don't you think the situations you have described can be a clear case of parents (living vicariously through their children) forcing them to practice the piano even if the child hates it, don't have any passion for making you tired by moving your arms and hands around and just pretend they like not to irritate/dissapoint their parents?

This is one of the most cruel form of parental abuse of power. I think there are lot of ex young-piano students that now hate the piano and music with all their heart because of what they had to indure as children. And maybe if they have had a choice on their hobbies and activity some of them would have taken interest for the piano at their own pace and would be now good pianists and music lovers

[amanfang]

Danny,

I very heartily disagree with you.  I HATED piano as a child.  My mother would set the kitchen timer on the piano and I could NOT get up from the bench until the timer went off.  But there was no choice.  I was "forced" to take piano lessons until they told me I could quit.  Suddenly, in junior high and high school when I could actually nice pieces that sounded nice or cool or whatever, I enjoyed piano.  I had a teacher who made lessons fun.  Now I love piano and I want all my students to love piano.

Sure, piano is not for everyone, and parents should be sensitive to it.  But really, what kid is going to WANT to put in the discipline and hard work it takes to practice to develop the skill?  I'm not saying there aren't ANY who are like that, but most kids, after several weeks of lessons decide that the novelty and fun has worn off, and they no longer want to put the effort into it.  I think that most often, most kids NEED the "enforcement" of practice by their parents.  It is the same with getting kids to do their homework, or any other sort of work.

[danny_sequel]

Danny,

I very heartily disagree with you.  I HATED piano as a child.  My mother would set the kitchen timer on the piano and I could NOT get up from the bench until the timer went off.  But there was no choice.  I was "forced" to take piano lessons until they told me I could quit.  Suddenly, in junior high and high school when I could actually nice pieces that sounded nice or cool or whatever, I enjoyed piano.  I had a teacher who made lessons fun.  Now I love piano and I want all my students to love piano.

Sure, piano is not for everyone, and parents should be sensitive to it.  But really, what kid is going to WANT to put in the discipline and hard work it takes to practice to develop the skill?  I'm not saying there aren't ANY who are like that, but most kids, after several weeks of lessons decide that the novelty and fun has worn off, and they no longer want to put the effort into it.  I think that most often, most kids NEED the "enforcement" of practice by their parents.  It is the same with getting kids to do their homework, or any other sort of work.

If you're talking about a kid who asks for piano lessons and then after some time seems not to care much and don't put any effort at the piano then I agree with you that some enforcement may be even something that the kid itself will grateful of

But I'm talking about parents forcing piano lessons over a child that not only doesn't want to have anything to do with piano but would rather go to swimming lessons or sculpture laboratories ... In fact I've even known people that were forced by their parents as children to play the piano even if what they wanted and told their parents was playing the violin, or the clarinet or drums.

I can assure that the majority of these people grew a strong hatred for anything related to music and the piano and can goes so far as to feel physically sick (nausa, faintness) when they see a piano or listen someone playing it

[pizno]

Hyrst - I think your comments are what I was looking for - and I was starting to formulate similar ideas, that the trick is to not go head to head but rather find ways to avoid battles - and all the rest that you said too.  I know this from my own parenting experience, but wasn't expecting it with my students!  I think in retrospect I should have said 'We can get back to that later', and let it go. 

Danny...   I disagree about the not wanting piano lessons.  This girl does - if anything, I think she was impatient to get to her pieces and I was having a post recital fit of getting back to our exercises. (Enough fun, now back to work.) I am constantly trying to find the balance between their exercises and drills and their pieces, which is usually the only thing they have practiced.  She is a new student, so we are still doing a lot of flash cards, which is admittedly frustrating to them (and me). 

The more I think about this girl, the more I realize what an individualist she is.  I think perhaps she doesn't like to be told how to do things (though she's been fine with this up until now).  She dresses in a style very her own and a little unusual - like a shirt over a sweater, not under - and it is clear that this is important to her.  So when I suggested she make a smile with her wrists (this is a very clear metaphor for most kids) I think she  just thought 'this isn't how I play the piano, I have my own way'.  Now that I've thought this through, I can see this - and I will probably give her some space. 

Piz

[rc]

I don't have a lot of teaching experience (so take me with a grain of salt ), there was one girl who I thought I could impart a few things to help her improve, but she was also a 'strong individualist' who had a series of carefully constructed attitudes that completely prevented her from learning anything.  She wouldn't listen to a thing I said, and I sat there wondering what I'm even doing there.  Through a friend I've found she has a history of bouncing from teacher to teacher until she found one who would take her cash and sit through unproductive lessons each week.

The best way for a student to learn is to give complete compliance to the teacher.  Some may need the teacher to connect the dots as to WHY they're being asked to do certain things, but the whole name of the game is to do what the teacher asks - because the teacher knows how to do something the student wants to learn for themselves.  Presupposing a good teacher that is (I've heard of those cookbook music store 'teachers').

I didn't bother trying to teach her, I'm a student and have much learning to do myself, why waste time with somebody who's not interested in learning?  But I still wonder if perhaps a battle is just what's needed.  Not a furious one, but a tough-love approach of picking apart her attitudes and showing her how they are holding her back.  I figure two things could happen:  she'll hate me forever and I won't have to think about it anymore, or she'll accept what I say and grow.  Even if she doesn't accept it immediately, the ego-defense could be too strong, but at least to have out with it and perhaps some point in the future she can transcend the useless attitudes.

I know my example isn't really applicable to your situation pizno, you're student is younger so more patience would be appropriate.  I'm just making a case - I suspect battles may have their use.  I'll just have to give it a try.

[john v.d.brook]

I'm new here - generally I'm active on another board.  However, may I suggest a solution which ended this problem forever.  I video each student's lesson direct to DVD and it goes home with the student.  Practice increased remarkably and behavior problems are a thing of the past.

[pianowolfi]

I'm new here - generally I'm active on another board.  However, may I suggest a solution which ended this problem forever.  I video each student's lesson direct to DVD and it goes home with the student.  Practice increased remarkably and behavior problems are a thing of the past.

And who pays the material?

[john v.d.brook]

Recording students is part of their tuition.  They get one free DVD at the beginning of the year - they're re-recordable variety so the students return them the following week.  I got the idea from Dr. Martha Baker-Jorden in her Practical Pedagogy book, where she mentioned that she video-taped lessons.

[stevehopwood]

Hyrst - I think your comments are what I was looking for - and I was starting to formulate similar ideas, that the trick is to not go head to head but rather find ways to avoid battles - and all the rest that you said too.  I know this from my own parenting experience, but wasn't expecting it with my students!  I think in retrospect I should have said 'We can get back to that later', and let it go. 

Good for you pizno. We all learn this lesson sooner or later, unless we are idiots. Children are individualists. Talented children are rampant individualists. We teachers have to be ready to adapt our methods and styles to suit each individual.

Danny...   I disagree about the not wanting piano lessons.  This girl does - if anything, I think she was impatient to get to her pieces and I was having a post recital fit of getting back to our exercises. (Enough fun, now back to work.) I am constantly trying to find the balance between their exercises and drills and their pieces, which is usually the only thing they have practiced.  She is a new student, so we are still doing a lot of flash cards, which is admittedly frustrating to them (and me). 

I have been a full-time, professional piano teacher for over 30 years now. Two of the most important things I have learned in all this time are: 1) children will practise what they want to practise regardless of how important their teacher may consider other elements that the kids are ignoring; 2) the only really important thing is that they practise - what they practise is of secondary importance.

The fact is that kids who do loads of practise on pieces will end up as good pianists. If\when they decide to take their study seriously, then they will look for other ways to improve their techniques and will be prepared to practise scales and studies.

She is a new student, so we are still doing a lot of flash cards, which is admittedly frustrating to them (and me).

That is insane, pizno. Students do not go to you to be frustrated. They go to you to learn and to have a good time. Without the latter, the former will not happen. Spend less time on the flashcards and more playing the piano. That is what the kids want to do. Flashcards have their place, as we have discussed elsewhere, but they should not be the central part of a piano lesson.

Steve 

[chocolatedog]

Recording students is part of their tuition.  They get one free DVD at the beginning of the year - they're re-recordable variety so the students return them the following week.  I got the idea from Dr. Martha Baker-Jorden in her Practical Pedagogy book, where she mentioned that she video-taped lessons.

Unfortunately in the UK this may possibly be illegal........or certainly very dubious and maybe not such a good idea, seeing that parents are often not even allowed to video their own kids taking part in Christmas Nativities in a lot of schools......sad, but true..........

[elspeth]

Unless you get the parents' permission in writing, including a statement of why you do it and what will happen to the recording... still dubious territory in this day and age though, unfortunately.

[666666]

I've been teaching piano for a very long time, and I admit I get a certain satisfaction from "tattle-tailing" on a mischievous child.  Parents are usually very embaressed when their children act rudely, and will correct the problem immediately.  After all, I am their to teach their child, not raise them.  Don't stress over it, and let the child's parents do their job, so you can do yours.

[overscore]

I have this charming little 8 year old, and we have a pretty good relationship.  The other day she was doing some exercises and I said 'see if you can make a smile with your wrist', trying to move her away from strictly using her fingers.  She kind of went stoney and said 'No'.  Okaayyyyy, then.  I tried to make light of it and encouraged her in a very friendly way to try it, and explained that in piano you don't just use your fingers, you use your wrists, arms, and back.  She said 'No, I'm just going to use my fingers'.  We went back and forth a few times - I felt myself getting a little hot under the collar.  This was such an odd and unexpected exchange, I was a bit thrown by it. Part of me thought I should let it go, the other part thought - this was just a teensy bit disrespectful and she needed to know I wasn't going to let her go that easily.  I asked her if she was ready for her lesson to be over(mean teacher, mean teacher) and she said no. In the end, she kind of used her wrist half-heartedly and I let it go, with plenty of praise.  Even though she's a very nice girl, she does sometimes seem as if she is testing me - 'diddling' on the keyboard even after I ask her to stop repeatedly, throwing her body back on the piano bench.  I'm hoping if I can just keep her focused she will get over this annoying phase.  My overall feeling was 'Where did THAT come from?'.  Sure, she could be having a bad day, she could have been tired of doing exercises, but, really.

It's a playful way of saying, 'Stop bossing me around!' Going by my own experiences teaching, it can go one of several ways:

 - You can react crossly, in which case she might feel a little power rush from getting a rise out of you, and so keep doing it just for kicks. Or she'll just feel scared and think you're a creep.

 - You can ignore it completely, and eventually her behaviour may become completely uncontrollable.

 - You can have a 'serious discussion' and bore her to tears so that she thinks you're a total drip, thus losing all your credibility in her eyes.

 - Videotape her and risk prosecution and jail (joke).

The main thing with kids is they need an obvious reason for doing something. If you can somehow demonstrate that using your wrist gives an appreciably better result, then she may want to do it of her own accord. Otherwise it just comes over as bossiness on your part. From her point of view, she's getting a perfectly satisfactory result and yet someone else is trying to make her do it a different way.

I've taught guitar for years and the way I get kids to try new things is to play something impressive (or at least catchy), so that they ask, 'How do you do that?' I then explain that if they want to do that then they need to learn a certain technique. Then you've got them, because all they need then is the encouragement to keep at it until they can do it.

What you never ever do is say out of the blue, 'Right, we're going to try this entirely new thing now' because then they'll fight you tooth and nail all the way. It's got to come from them. They've got to want to emulate what you're doing. A teacher should be an object of admiration and a role model; someone who teaches by example, not through force.

As a child I was subjected to what seemed like never-ending extra curricular torture by parents and teachers who thought that forcing kids into doing things was really good for them. It isn't! As a result of their misguided meddling, I now have an avid hatred of swimming, football, dancing and a load of other things. The problem was that none of these people ever once tried to engage my enthusiasm or make me want to emulate them. They just issued strings of orders. I hated those people and everything they represented because of it. And since outright bad behaviour was not tolerated, I would just clown around. Sound familiar?

[pianowelsh]

Individuality is not allowed - tradition must be preserved!........  Wheres my stick liebschen!   Only joking! .  There' s only so far yo can go with a complete refusal.  I usually let it go a couple of lessons and try again. Not asking them to do it as such 'now just turn your wrist out a little more - ok good - GREAT!!!' that way its done before they got a chance to disagree and then if you praise them for how much better it was they want to please you the next time!!

[pizno]

Good for you pizno. We all learn this lesson sooner or later, unless we are idiots. Children are individualists. Talented children are rampant individualists. We teachers have to be ready to adapt our methods and styles to suit each individual.
I have been a full-time, professional piano teacher for over 30 years now. Two of the most important things I have learned in all this time are: 1) children will practise what they want to practise regardless of how important their teacher may consider other elements that the kids are ignoring; 2) the only really important thing is that they practise - what they practise is of secondary importance.

The fact is that kids who do loads of practise on pieces will end up as good pianists. If\when they decide to take their study seriously, then they will look for other ways to improve their techniques and will be prepared to practise scales and studies.
That is insane, pizno. Students do not go to you to be frustrated. They go to you to learn and to have a good time. Without the latter, the former will not happen. Spend less time on the flashcards and more playing the piano. That is what the kids want to do. Flashcards have their place, as we have discussed elsewhere, but they should not be the central part of a piano lesson.

Steve 

Steve - I take to heart what you are saying.  Perhaps I am getting a little too focused on flashcard success and I know for a fact - with two teenaged daughters - I have been stressed and a little intense this week.  But that aside, I do have a very high standard for technique, and quite honestly, think I can do a lot better than the teachers some of them had  had before me, who seemed to pay little attention to anything, as far as I can tell.  I try to keep them doing interesting pieces that have challenges for them, but I am not going to have them JUST doing pieces and not working on any technique.  I try to make the technique and note reading skills fun, too. though as I say this I think with a few kids, lately, we have slipped a little in the fun department.  Usually that is when they have failed to practice anything except their 'pieces'.  Interesting, that you say kids will only practice what they want - I'm not to that point yet, but I might be agreeing with you soon.  Perhaps it is an unrealistic hope of mine. 
I hope I got this quote thing right this time!

pizno

[john v.d.brook]

Several posters mentioned illegality of recording students.  My first thought was, "In what universe?"  But then I realized that possibly some were thinking in a public school setting.  The fact is that security cameras are everywhere, in every business.  Further, people are constantly being recorded on cell phones.  When parents enroll students, they see the camera, they are told the why and how of student recordings and they get the DVD!  My studio is a private business, and like any other business, has the right to protect itself against fraudulent claims, theft, etc.  Not only have not one parent complained about their student lesson being recorded, most have expressed deep gratitude.  Could it be that an overdose of political correctness is why so many students are out of control?

[overscore]

Not only have not one parent complained about their student lesson being recorded, most have expressed deep gratitude.

Don't you think it makes your students paranoid though? It seems very cruel to me, capturing all a child's mistakes on tape.

[john v.d.brook]

Not at all.  Most have become oblivious to the camera.  The older students tell me that the plop the DVD into their PC and watch their lesson taking notes on areas to work on.  The camera is focused on the keyboard, and much of what we are doing is improving hand, wrist, forearm motion.  As is often said, a picture is worth a thousand words. 

[pizno]

Here's an update on the 'I won't do it' girl.  She is charming as can be, with an adorable smile on her face.  She practiced every day last week and did great.  She learned a new piece that I gave her this past week - a very easy piece.  I was trying to give her something with a tiny bit more challenge, in the same book, and she said (in a 'baby' voice) No, I don't like that.  Too many notes.  Too many pages. So we went through several pieces, to which she responded 'No'.  So I pulled out another book - and she said 'I don't like that book'.  'The notes are too far apart.'  She finally found something in the first book that for some reason looked OK.  So, this is just the way it is going to be with this child, I think!  It's pretty annoying, since what she is really telling me seems to be that she is afraid of some of the challenges in the pieces, and nothing seems to be able to change her mind.  I guess I will just keep trying, and giving her a few choices.  Meanwhile, she seems to be OK with shaping a 'smile' with her wrist.  And has anyone had the baby talk thing?  I tend to ignore it, but it sure gets old. 

[danny elfboy]

seeing that parents are often not even allowed to video their own kids taking part in Christmas Nativities in a lot of schools......sad, but true..........

That's retarded
I would rather live on a communist dictatorship

[overscore]

It's pretty annoying, since what she is really telling me seems to be that she is afraid of some of the challenges in the pieces, and nothing seems to be able to change her mind.  I guess I will just keep trying, and giving her a few choices.  Meanwhile, she seems to be OK with shaping a 'smile' with her wrist.  And has anyone had the baby talk thing?  I tend to ignore it, but it sure gets old. 

I'd just let her learn whatever she pleases, so long as she keeps getting better. Later on when she's older she'll be more interested in formulaic learning.

There's nothing worse than being forced to play something you don't like. I for one would hate piano if I were forced to play jazz or American folk songs... I would give up. The joy of learning is in finding something that suits you and immersing yourself in it until you understand it.

Look at kids with a Playstation. They can sit there for hours on end without moving an inch... how can they not get bored? Presumably it's because they're 'doing their own thing' and enjoying the experience of random learning (for better or worse). But I bet if you told your kids exactly which games they can play, and in what order, and by what rules and at what times of the day, then they would *hate* Playstation!

[chocolatedog]

That's retarded
I would rather live on a communist dictatorship

That's local "do-gooder, big brother" councils for you..........

[keyofc]

Pizno,
How long have you had her for a student? I have one like this - for three years - it can be very frustrating sometimes!

Some things that I've done with her is:1.  Let her be the teacher for five minutes of the lesson.  Of course she loves it!  And it really helps her.  It's amazing what she notices when I don't hold my hand correctly or make a mistake   I exaggerate all of the mistakes I'm hoping she will work on - and it has helped.

Of course - this too gets old if you do it al the time - so I do it now and then.  Otherwise it wouldn't work!

Once she said, "You can't make me do it!"  I said, "It's not my job to make you do anything,
its my job to help you become a better pianist - your job to try.  "  it worked for a while.

She is one of the most challenging students -and yet she is adorable too. 

She hates new pieces and refuses to play them.  So I tell her we can only skip it after she plays it and tells me what she doesn't like about it.  Usually she ends up loving it - just thought she couldn't do it.

I do have to talk to her parents now and then and they know I'm trying very hard with her.

It does help when I talk to them. though I don't like to.  I try to handle it in other ways if I can.

She insists that she loves playing piano = so I hate to discourage her from taking the lessons.

Giving her a goal sheet really helped - and I've noticed when I put her in a duet it really helps - because she doesn't like anyone doing better than she does.  So she tries harder.

Still somedays I just let her play what she wants. Because I know I have a student here that loves music but is not going to go far because of her lack of discipline.  So if I can instill a love for music and help her play I know I'm giving her something no one can take away. 

I have to say it's not her fault.  One day when her parent picked her up, she said, "Mom, can I play Beethoven when I get home?"  and the mother said, "not tonight, you're going to be too busy!"  I couldn't believe it - first time she ever asked her mom that (at least in my presence)  I was so happy she wanted to go home and practice, so what's up with that?
I thought all her excuses about her mom not letting her practice were just excuses and probably some were, but I was shocked.
All I could think of to say, "well, don't let Beethoven get lonely!"

I was thinking about how to end our sessions a few months ago - and she surprised me with writing a piece she dedicated to me.!  Go figure kids out!
Good luck to you - and I hope that my comments help you a little.
 

[pizno]

Hi KeyofC,

Yes, your comments do help!  They sound like somewhat similar kids.  I like some of your ideas.  I wonder how they are with the rest of life.  It would have never occurred to me, as a child, to have a power struggle with my piano teacher.  There is a big part of me that wants to say 'That's not appropriate' and have her be done with this testing.  Somehow I think it would just intensify things, though.   It does get tiring after a while, though. 

I can't believe your student's mother tells her she doesn't have time for practice!  Maybe that will make this kid really want it.

I think the most frustrating thing is that we know that the more progress they make, the more satisfied they will feel and the more likely they will want to stick with it.  And other kids are just dying for new pieces - mostly anything I give them!

Pizno