obelisks of egypt in nyc and thames london

[pianistimo]

just find all this egyptology stuff kinda interesting.  for one thing - here - william vanderbilt in 1881 (around the time britain took control of the suez canal) gets one of a pair of obelisks and puts it in central park.  the other of the pair ends up on the thames river embankment in london.  they are both from tuthmosis III's reign (although ramses also put his name on them later).  they originally came from heliopolis and were cut out as simple pieces of red granite from Aswan - and first erected by tuthmosis III.

now, even though thal thinks that this is small stuff...the British Museum has some interesting things to say about this period and also agrees that it could be this very period that the exodus happened (due to recent scholarship ruling out ramses II). 

https://mywebpages.comcast.net/rlaurio/BritishMuseum07.html

something else i have wondered about - is that it is only fairly recently that inscriptions have been attempted to be read.  there are several other words for israel besides 'isrir' so that is only one of several words that might mention these peoples and what happened.

interestingly - after tuthmosis II died - hatshepsut also built for herself a temple on the embankment of the nile and it is still there today facing out towards the red sea.  it is called 'the red chapel' and was most recently 'refound' in 1999 on the banks of the nile.  her assistant architect was 'senmut.'  possibly the reason for tuthmosis III to have attempted to destroy and deface much of her statues elsewhere - is that she was most likely the princess who drew moses out of the water - and he hated her for the trouble moses had now caused egypt (by returning after 40 years in midian).   

this is all like a sort of mystery novel to me - because i know that it would be a closer time frame to amenhotep's reign (thus more logical flow of history) as joseph was the first one to enter israel (possibly as imhotep - or the worshipper of the God I AM).

now, if hatshepsut reigned throughout part of tuthmosis II and III - (tuthmosis being her 1/2 brother - and she was married to him) - and tuthmosis dying  mysteriously.  either tuthmosis II died in the red sea (his mummy looks like his face had been wet with water.  it is not full - it is shrivelled more than the others) - tuthmosis III would have inherited quite a mess in the egyptian kingdom.  and, possibly put some blame on hatshepsut for believing moses and attempting to reform egypt during her reign before and after tuthmosis II.  it is interesting because noone really knows how tuthmosis II died.

[prometheus]

(his mummy looks like his face had been wet with water.

Hahaha...

[pianistimo]

also, his body was not buried immediately in his tomb - but many years later.  laugh if you must.

look at his mummified face and compare it with the others.  i'll look for the site.  i think it's 'tour egypt' that has pics of their faces.

[thalbergmad]

Hahaha...

She was doing OK up till then.

My face looks different after it has been covered in water, but perhaps not after 3500 years.

Thal

[prometheus]

What does it matter how his face looks?

If my face gets wet by mere water and then gets dried it looks the same as before.

If you imply that his body lay at the bottem of the Red Sea for years it would have been rotten completely.


Part of the mummification is to get all water out of the body. Otherwise bacteria will grow and eat the mummy.

A drop of water on the mummy would have destroyed the mummy.

I don't understand what you are trying to argue.

His face looks like it has been wet or looks like it is eroded by water and his death is unknown so he was the pharaoh that died while chasing the Jewish slaved through their  magical red sea passage?

Stupid.

[thalbergmad]

I do not have a problem with the generally accepted date of the Exodus as i accept that the building of the 1st temple of Jerusalem is a date on which we can rely upon and date other events accordingly.

My bone of contention are the long accepted dates that are attributed to the various reigns of the Pharoahs. They do not take into consideration dual regencies and rely on approximations. In order for more accurate dating, we need to accept more fixed points in time which can be used as a linch pin. One of those is the sothic year, but i ain't going into that.

Just a quick google reveals at least 7 possibilities for the Pharoah of the Exodus and i feel none will ever be proved beyond doubt.

Amenhotep IV and Dudimose would appear to be the strongest candidates, but neither left us with much info. Perhaps the Egyptians only remembered their victories.

Thal

[pianistimo]

sothic year?  now you have peaked my interest again. 

say, prometheus - don't you think mr thutmoses would have risen to the surface - like most dead bodies.  they find him washed up on the beach somewheres.  somebody recognizes him - 'hey,  our long lost pharoah'  - take him back.  dry him off.  stick him in another tomb ?  that part i dont' understand.  surely hatshepsut would have put him in his tomb.  unless?  unless she really hated his guts and just dumped him in with those other kings.  or, maybe he was buried - dug up - buried - dug up.   (she was his 1/2 sister AND wife - but she had the most right to rule because he was born by a distant or second wife of tuthmoses I)

the problem, as thal says, with egyptology is just when you think you have all the dates figured out - someone discovers something new or that changes things around and so it's kind of mysterious still.  especially the dual reign thing.  some king in luxor at the same time as memphis?  they had a lot of intermarriage, too, it sounds.  so genetically - you're like 'what is this?  sister, wife, even incest with the old pharoah?  they were so inbred - no wonder some of them had health problems.  i think hatshepsut was the only true heir from the line that came before.  some were not even really associated with the royal line.

[thalbergmad]

sothic year?  now you have peaked my interest again. 

This explains it much better than i could.

https://www.egyptologyonline.com/sothic_dating.htm

It is an important and simple concept to understand and has on occasion assisted Egyptologists with datings.

Astronomy has also helped to give accurate datings.

Thal

[pianistimo]

thanks for the explaination.  so many more questions.  why did this form of calendar start in amenhotep I reign, for one.  but, i will ask on an egyptian history forum.