beethoven sonatas :)

[imbetter]

i just got a book of all the beethoven sonatas published by dover. It's a really high quality book but there are occaisional spashes of ink.

I'm quite happy because before this I had to get all my sonatas from pianostreet 

[ramseytheii]

i just got a book of all the beethoven sonatas published by dover. It's a really high quality book but there are occaisional spashes of ink.

I'm quite happy because before this I had to get all my sonatas from pianostreet 

That is a good and famous edition.  Also good ones are the Schnabel and the Henle, and recently I discovered the Tovey, which are published individually by Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music.  They used to publish Schnabel's editions as individual sonatas, but I think that stopped, so if you are ever in a used-music store and you see some, just buy them.

Walter Ramsey

[phil13]

Dover...if that's the same one I have, the editor is Schenker, right?

I use it primarily but also bought the Schnabel edition for his interpretation and other ideas...cost me a pretty penny though, compared to others.

Phil

[imbetter]

Dover...if that's the same one I have, the editor is Schenker, right?

I use it primarily but also bought the Schnabel edition for his interpretation and other ideas...cost me a pretty penny though, compared to others.

Phil

schenker is the editor

[franzliszt2]

That is a good and famous edition. Also good ones are the Schnabel and the Henle, and recently I discovered the Tovey, which are published individually by Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. They used to publish Schnabel's editions as individual sonatas, but I think that stopped, so if you are ever in a used-music store and you see some, just buy them.

Walter Ramsey

The best is the henle urtext edition. That the only edition I trust. I have a schabel, but its far to heavily annotated to study from. It's interesting though. Associated board the worst edition ever, and should be burnt. It has misprints, the phrasing is awfully wrong, he changes it slightly which makes huge differences. He adds all sorts of dynamics, and staccatos. The introductions to them are interesting, but should not be followed, Tovey was very self opinionated. I recently played op31no3, and I had no other edition but the associated board for a few days since my Henle editions live at my home (I don't live at home), and the associated board had 3 and a half beats in a few bars! Its the 5th page, top line.

[iumonito]

The best is the henle urtext edition. That the only edition I trust. I have a schabel, but its far to heavily annotated to study from. It's interesting though. Associated board the worst edition ever, and should be burnt. It has misprints, the phrasing is awfully wrong, he changes it slightly which makes huge differences. He adds all sorts of dynamics, and staccatos. The introductions to them are interesting, but should not be followed, Tovey was very self opinionated. I recently played op31no3, and I had no other edition but the associated board for a few days since my Henle editions live at my home (I don't live at home), and the associated board had 3 and a half beats in a few bars! Its the 5th page, top line.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.  First of all, there are at least two Henle editions (Wallner, 1952, 1980) and (Gertsch, not sure about the date) of the Beethoven sonatas.

Both Henle editions, although lovely in their type set, are plagued with textual errors (the Gertsch marginally better than the first, in my opinion).  For example, should you blindly buy into the urtext myth, as far as I can tell you would end up playing accents on the wrong notes in 109, wrong notes in the recitative in 31.2 and totally missing the voice leading in Op. 13.

Check this out, for example:

https://www.tecla.com/extras/1001/1001/1001note.htm

Schenker's is very good.

[ramseytheii]

Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.  First of all, there are at least two Henle editions (Wallner, 1952, 1980) and (Gertsch, not sure about the date) of the Beethoven sonatas.

Both Henle editions, although lovely in their type set, are plagued with textual errors (the Gertsch marginally better than the first, in my opinion).  For example, should you blindly buy into the urtext myth, as far as I can tell you would end up playing accents on the wrong notes in 109, wrong notes in the recitative in 31.2 and totally missing the voice leading in Op. 13.

Check this out, for example:

https://www.tecla.com/extras/1001/1001/1001note.htm

Schenker's is very good.

You could be a little nicer about it.  Anyways, I distrust when people quote "original editions" because those are not manuscripts, and have a great deal of editing in them themselves.  Original editions are also plagued with errors.  Although this guy makes an itneresting point about Pathetique, look at the end of bar two:  the B and C in the tenor voice aren't placed on the lower stave, so actually Henle is more consistent.  Perhaps it would be better if both times the tenor voice were on the lower stave, but obviously neither one of them did this.

In his opus 27 example, he says vaguely, "the interpretation could be different."  That's true: instead of tie'ing the B-flat, someone might play it twice, reading the "original edition."  Henle actually clarifies the issue by putting the slur over the two moving notes, and the whole duration of the B-flat. 

In bar 7, you will notice the long slur in the "original edition" contains the second B_flat, tied to the first.  Sorry I know this is confusing.  But basically, the original edition is saying, you slur from the A to the B-flat, the B-flat is tied, and the slur continues - it doesn't start over from the next note after the B-flat.  Actually, Henle clarifies this issue as well by turning it into one slur.  He always says, "this could affect the interpretation," but leaves unanswered the obvious: "how?"

He says he would rather have only markings from "original editions" than modern ones like Urtext, totally neglecting the possibility, and sometimes fact, that original editions were incorrect, and had to be turned into second editions to correct the multitude of errors.  This is another example of romanticizing the past, and rejecting with hatred the world that you live in.  Beethoven scholarship has only improved since the original times of printing these works; let us not neglect it.

Walter Ramsey

[kd]

Does anyone know who the editor of the scores available here on pianostreet is?

[iumonito]

I should have been nicer, and it appears more precise.  My point is not that first editions are infallible, they are not.  My point is that Henle is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the best edition of the Beethoven sonatas.  I prefer Schenker's, which while not perfect, at least does not pretend to be and is much more accurate.

My two most pressing examples are the placements of Sz marks in the variations of Op. 109, which in Henle at points would lead to a very much wrong interpretation, and a very significant C in Op 31.2 in the first recitative of the first movement that changes a lot the musical expression of that particular passage.

Schenker also changed the voice leading in Op. 13.

[ramseytheii]

I should have been nicer, and it appears more precise.  My point is not that first editions are infallible, they are not.  My point is that Henle is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the best edition of the Beethoven sonatas.  I prefer Schenker's, which while not perfect, at least does not pretend to be and is much more accurate.

My two most pressing examples are the placements of Sz marks in the variations of Op. 109, which in Henle at points would lead to a very much wrong interpretation, and a very significant C in Op 31.2 in the first recitative of the first movement that changes a lot the musical expression of that particular passage.

Schenker also changed the voice leading in Op. 13.

I'm curious about the Sz marks in 109, can you tell me which ones you're referring to?  I know in the Schnabel edition he had a problem with this too, and suggested in the 4th variation, in the second half with the pianissimo chords, the sfz's should go on the offbeats, not the main ones.

Walter Ramsey

[franzliszt2]

Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.  First of all, there are at least two Henle editions (Wallner, 1952, 1980) and (Gertsch, not sure about the date) of the Beethoven sonatas.

Both Henle editions, although lovely in their type set, are plagued with textual errors (the Gertsch marginally better than the first, in my opinion).  For example, should you blindly buy into the urtext myth, as far as I can tell you would end up playing accents on the wrong notes in 109, wrong notes in the recitative in 31.2 and totally missing the voice leading in Op. 13.

Check this out, for example:

https://www.tecla.com/extras/1001/1001/1001note.htm

Schenker's is very good.

Sorry, but youve mentrioned 2 examples of fault. Of course no edition is perfect. Why have I been advised by 1) My piano teacher and 2) my fortepiano teacher who happens to be a leading expert in music of the past and editions. And he said henle is the best. And I think I'll trust him over you ..no offense. It just seems a bit odd that every professor I meet says henle.

[ramseytheii]

Sorry, but youve mentrioned 2 examples of fault. Of course no edition is perfect. Why have I been advised by 1) My piano teacher and 2) my fortepiano teacher who happens to be a leading expert in music of the past and editions. And he said henle is the best. And I think I'll trust him over you ..no offense. It just seems a bit odd that every professor I meet says henle.

In the end you should trust yourself, and just compare the two versions to see what is different, and try and think of why.  Schenker edition (Dover) is a classic, and it was revolutionary, but it is now 70 to 80 years old.  I am not that informed in Beethoven scholarship, but obviously the Henle is not just reprinting an edition from 100 years ago, they are still developing it.  it could very well be that new discoveries in Beethoven scholarship have shed light on things that were not known before.

But Schenker is valuable because he also payed close attention to how Beethoven actually notated things, and tried to imitate to the best of the printing press' ability the same notation in his edition.  You should read the Schachter preface in the Dover edition, it contains some interesting insights in this regard.  In the end the editions you choose don't make a universe of difference, but there are so many, that there should be one that speaks to you personally.

You may want to look for the Liszt edition, published in the 19th century - but don't look for it hoping to find Liszt's idiosyncratic approach, because his was famously scaled-back, and also based on Beethoven's manuscripts; it's not a performing edition like the Schnabel.

Walter Ramsey
 

[franzliszt2]

Doesn;t liszt like add octaves and stuff? I've never seen it, but heard a lot about it.

[iumonito]

Sorry, but youve mentrioned 2 examples of fault. Of course no edition is perfect. Why have I been advised by 1) My piano teacher and 2) my fortepiano teacher who happens to be a leading expert in music of the past and editions. And he said henle is the best. And I think I'll trust him over you ..no offense. It just seems a bit odd that every professor I meet says henle.

No offense taken.  If your professors like them, they must have their reasons.  I was enamoured with my Henle books until a memorable afternoon with Paul Badura-Skoda in which he exorcised me from my Henle fetish.  I am grateful.

I too had a teacher who taught me Henle was the best.  I have since learned there were many other things she told me that had very little basis, no matter how fervently she believed them.

Now I have a Barenreiter fetish, but they do not have the Beethoven solo sonatas in their catalogue yet.   

Walter, I think we are talking about the same spot.  It is in the second part of the one with the hemiolas.  Henle has the inner chords accentuated, when it is clear what is intended is the outer melody with the pinky.