Why does it happen?

[aloysia_weber]

Hi! I'm an Italian piano student from the Conservatory of Milan.
Since today I had to play Chopin's etude op.10 n.5 (the one on the black keys) in front of my class and my teacher, yesterday I practiced a lot and it seemed to me it was ok. Today I played it and I did something that has never happened to me before: I played the same passage (bars 3-4: they come out many times. and they surely aren't the most difficult passage of the etude!))  with the same wrong notes throughout the piece. It was like my fingers didn't know the right notes in that passage; and every time it came out I played that wrong with the same notes all the times. Besides other mistakes, of course.
 So, this etude surely needs more practice; but why do you think this happens? What should I do to avoid that exactly? I think practicing slowly as I did for all the time is a good idea; but what if that passage comes out wrong again the next time I play in front of the class?
Thanks

[pianistimo]

you surely would not be the first.  chopin is very difficult.  so much chromaticism. 

i think sometimes everyone has a bad day.  it could have been your bad day.

but, also - if a certain fingering is not working well - you might find another to be more 'reassurring.'  i've found for certain pieces - if there is a repetition that is not played with similar fingering - it really messes me up (unless it is a forced repetition with certain fingering that cannot be changed).  but, i really try to figure out as similar of repetition fingerings as i can.  also, there is much you can do to aleviate things by taking some notes with the left hand at times.  this frees up the other hand and creates a less stressful scenario.

with this piece, in certain places you can use the 'drag' method.  what i mean is drag the same finger down off a black note to a white note. 

for instance in my book i have fingering written which doesn't use this - so i x it out.

i wrote in (going up) 421, 5,5,4,3,4,5,5,421,5,5,4,4,5,5,4,3,4,5,5,5...

now going down you might be using the 3rd finger more - ie 5, 4, 3, 3, 421, 4,5,4,3, 421, 3, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3,3...  so you drag the pinky at the end of the line from B natural to A with 5, then G# to G with 4, and F# to F with 3.

[ramseytheii]

pianitisimo, every time I read your posts on fingering I get so confused.  Are you addressing the bars he is asking about, or just some random bars out of your music library?  He didn't even ask about a chromatic passage.  I pray to the Heavenly Father that you are not addressing the bars he is referring to, because that would just be so bizarre you would be beyond all assistance.

My advice is not to worry too much about a flaw in your memory because it sounds like a flaw in your concentration.  You have to not only practice slowly, but practice in slow motion, and bring out different elements so that they are secure a tempo.  For example bringing out all the notes played by the thumb as if they were a melody, or all the notes played by the pinky. 

So many people worry about their memories, that they "can't" learn this or that, but really they just haven't spent enough time knowing it in intimate details.  Can you immediately identify the harmony on each eighth note beat?  Can you start from the second beat, the third beat?  Can you play both hands alone?  All of these from memory of course.  It's the only way to know things, to take them apart and put them back together.

I don't know if it is your problem, but also a lot of people have good absorption when they are children and they go through their lives with a sense of entitlement, that their memory should serve them.  It is the other way around: if you want a secure memory, you have to earn it, and not expect it to do all the work for you.

(Happy Birthday A.R.  )

Walter Ramsey

you surely would not be the first.  chopin is very difficult.  so much chromaticism. 

i think sometimes everyone has a bad day.  it could have been your bad day.

but, also - if a certain fingering is not working well - you might find another to be more 'reassurring.'  i've found for certain pieces - if there is a repetition that is not played with similar fingering - it really messes me up (unless it is a forced repetition with certain fingering that cannot be changed).  but, i really try to figure out as similar of repetition fingerings as i can.  also, there is much you can do to aleviate things by taking some notes with the left hand at times.  this frees up the other hand and creates a less stressful scenario.

with this piece, in certain places you can use the 'drag' method.  what i mean is drag the same finger down off a black note to a white note. 

for instance in my book i have fingering written which doesn't use this - so i x it out.

i wrote in (going up) 421, 5,5,4,3,4,5,5,421,5,5,4,4,5,5,4,3,4,5,5,5...

now going down you might be using the 3rd finger more - ie 5, 4, 3, 3, 421, 4,5,4,3, 421, 3, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3,3...  so you drag the pinky at the end of the line from B natural to A with 5, then G# to G with 4, and F# to F with 3.

[quantum]

It may be a memory or concentration problem.  Don't feel bad, this happens to most people and we can all learn from our experiences.

From my readings on memorization:
When we memorize, we may be ingraining details into our heads that we are probably unaware.  For example: the texture of the keys, the height of the bench, the angle and intensity of light, the temperature of the room, the finish of the piano, the reflections off the fallboard, etc.  When we do our slow and methodical practice we, also are taking in the environment and particular piano we practice on.  When we perform, it usually isn't on our practice piano or room.  Yes we know the notes very well, but especially in newer piece we are also sensitive to environmental changes because our brains are still in the process of committing the music to memory and being able to recall and playback from memory.

So when it comes time to perform, a different piano can cause our brains to go a bit astray because during practice the piano and environment have been a constant and now we have changed some variables and memory playback may be a bit confused.  Our brains have to adjust.  That is why it is good to practice playing a new piece on different pianos and atmospheres. 

This may be a case of memorizing too much (as in the feel of our practice piano).  We have to learn to be flexible in our performing, so we retain the details of the music yet adapt to any particular performance environment.

Hope that made some sense.

[ramseytheii]

I think that's a great post and would add, that not only is it good to practice on different pianos, but to study the music itself away from any instrument and get a feeling for the music in that environment.

Walter Ramsey

It may be a memory or concentration problem.  Don't feel bad, this happens to most people and we can all learn from our experiences.

From my readings on memorization:
When we memorize, we may be ingraining details into our heads that we are probably unaware.  For example: the texture of the keys, the height of the bench, the angle and intensity of light, the temperature of the room, the finish of the piano, the reflections off the fallboard, etc.  When we do our slow and methodical practice we, also are taking in the environment and particular piano we practice on.  When we perform, it usually isn't on our practice piano or room.  Yes we know the notes very well, but especially in newer piece we are also sensitive to environmental changes because our brains are still in the process of committing the music to memory and being able to recall and playback from memory.

So when it comes time to perform, a different piano can cause our brains to go a bit astray because during practice the piano and environment have been a constant and now we have changed some variables and memory playback may be a bit confused.  Our brains have to adjust.  That is why it is good to practice playing a new piece on different pianos and atmospheres. 

This may be a case of memorizing too much (as in the feel of our practice piano).  We have to learn to be flexible in our performing, so we retain the details of the music yet adapt to any particular performance environment.

Hope that made some sense.

[aloysia_weber]

Thanks!
I actually found myself in many of the things you said.
First of all I am exactly one of those people who can memorize a piece quite easily cause I was used to do it when I was a child. And I actually have always thought that memorizing a piece just cause you happen to and not after analizing it was the best way to memorize a piece. I actually learnt this piece exactly in this way: I just closed my book and it was all in my mind and in my fingers... But I'll surely try to "earn" my memory instead of trusting it.
Another thing that happened yesterday, moreover, was that I played on a Kawaii with quite hard keys while I practiced on a Steinway which keys went down and up very easily, just touching them. I don't often have the possibility to try different pianos, cause rooms in the Conservatory are always occupied; but I'll surely try.
I don't understand to which part that fingering refers to... I am actually quite comfortable with mine: a mix between Badura-Skoda's, my teacher's and my personal fingering. I think it fits my hand.
The only problem I have qith fingering is in the double octaves in the measure before the last one. I use the fourth and the fifth finger together cause my teacher told me to do so. I read on a topic here that some people think it's good. I think it makes the octaves much more energic, but it is practically sure that I'll put wrong notes in the middle... also cause my hands are really not so big (the larger interval I can reach is only a nineth). Maybe I just should use the fifth?

[ramseytheii]

The only problem I have qith fingering is in the double octaves in the measure before the last one. I use the fourth and the fifth finger together cause my teacher told me to do so. I read on a topic here that some people think it's good. I think it makes the octaves much more energic, but it is practically sure that I'll put wrong notes in the middle... also cause my hands are really not so big (the larger interval I can reach is only a nineth). Maybe I just should use the fifth?

Use the 4-5 only on black keys in parallel double octaves that don't have chords, just plain octaves.  For the last quarter of the penultimate bar, just use 5 on the top B-flat.  The 4-5 thing is really an aid in playing powerful, soemtimes fast, octaves, without wearing down your pinky, and for getting a grip on the thinner black keys.  You don't need it in just a rolled chord which isn't going anywhere!

Walter Ramsey