Is it possible to become a virtuoso late in life?

[webern78]

I don't mean concert level virtuoso but enough to be able to play some of the basic repertory, mostly for personal amusement.
 
BTW, I'm 29, and i have never touched a piano before. 

[danny elfboy]

I don't mean concert level virtuoso but enough to be able to play some of the basic repertory, mostly for personal amusement.
 
BTW, I'm 29, and i have never touched a piano before. 

I do believe it's possible
There's a good book that I don't remember the author of called "The Myth of the First Years"

As you probably know it has been said that the first years of life are somewhere fundamental to learning and what you can achieve in those years you will never be able to achieve later. According to many researchers and experts this is a myth nowadays caused by a biased belief in nature where it's actually a matter of nurture

For example it has been found that a person of whatever age has all the physioneurological conditions to learn a second language and speak it as a native (it has happened before)

So why everyone think it's so hard?
The reason is one of cultural fruition
It has been observed that a child is more spontaneous in creating bonds, in talking with foreign kids and making friends. A older kids will try to spend most time outside where he can listen people talk and communicate.
Adults on the other hand tend to eschew from creating bonds so easily, try to find people that speak their native language and spend more time with them than with the foreign people and also have less time ... most of their time is spent at work where usually communication is mono-chord and rather repetitive

Another reason is neuromuscular
We produce sound by reasoning the vibration in the mask (lips and tongue)
Since muscles have memory the more time we spend moving the lips and tongue in a way functional to the sounds we have to produce the more spontaneous will be to use the same movements when speaking anothing language, while the condition to make the exact same sounds it to "recondition" the muscles
In other word while a child have still not muscle conditioned to its native language a teen or adult must do the conscious effort to recondition its muscles

Apply that to the piano and you'll say why it's wrongly believe that you must be start as a child in order to master the virtuoso technique at the piano

1) a child has more free time and less cultural barriers

2) a child has muscles that are less conditioned by a long time of repetitive tasks at work or school or in sport

3) a child is more spontaneous and see the piano for what it is, adults are more entrapped into cultural symbolism and tend to not see thnigs for what they are hence it's harder for them to grasp concepts on their whole

The solution is to "make a child out of yourself"
Hence reconditioning your body and mind to be free from "conditioning" like that of a child. The free from conditioning mind and body can in turn be easily reconditioned to the virtuoso piano playing

In other words you have to make a conscious effort to reprogram your muscular neurology knowing that it has been conditioned for a longer time compared to that of a child and reprogram your analytic versus analogic mindset knowing that it has been conditioned for longer compared to those of a child

[desordre]

 Dear folks:
 I agree 100% with Mr. Elfboy.
 Just one very important remark, Mr. Webern: get the best teacher you can, and one who are acquainted with adults, because there are good teachers that work basically with childs and teens, and don't do an appropriate work with a grown up. Trying to do things by yourself, or with a poor teacher will be frustrating.
 Best!

[nightingale11]

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=7281824873422c2b3e470cc094ea95af&topic=2125.msg17864#msg17864
(It does not matter what is the actual relationship between age and accomplishment. What matters is that the only correct philosophy is to believe that age does not matter at all. If you believe otherwise your own belief will be the source of your limitations. - Bernhrard)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2976.msg26082.html#msg26082
(benefits of starting later)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,143.msg35967.html#msg35967
(comparison between adult beginner and a child)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3992.msg36199.html#msg36199
(Do children really learn faster than adults?)

[csy]

Sviatoslav Richter and Arcadi Volodos are good examples....

[lazlo]

Josef Hoffman started when he was 24. He did okay... He was the idol of pretty much every great pianist of the 20th century.

[Bob]

I think it's possible.  The big obstacle is that adults have to work usually.  There's not as much time or energy.

[menuet]

Starting at 29, no matter how talented you are, with the required practicing time (let's state an hour average a day), you will be able to play a lot of the piano repertoire.

[txmuslguy]

  I have to agree with Bob (reply #6). I'm 44 and my playing is coming along pretty well, but it's always a time and energy issue.  I have a full time job, go to the gym after work before finally getting home in the evening. By the time I "fianlly" get a chance to sit down and practice I've been up for 16 hours already!  Good lord I'd like to have some of my youth time given back to me.
Tx

[arensky]

Josef Hoffman started when he was 24. He did okay... He was the idol of pretty much every great pianist of the 20th century.

Uh, you are mistaken. Hofmann was one of the most extraordinary prodigies in history. He made his American debut at age 11 at the Metropolitan Opera House, playing Beethoven's 1st Concerto and solos including the Chopin Berceuse and the Weber-Liszt Polacca. Other Concerti in his repertoire at that time included Beethoven's Third, the Mozart d minor, Mendelssohn g minor and Weber's Konzertstuck. After a brief series of concerts a welthy philanthropist gave his family $50,000 on the condition that he stop performing and only study (he did, with Moszkowski and Rubinstein) until he reached the age of 18.

About the topic itself it certainly is possible. Ivan Davis is a notable late bloomer, he began to play at the age of 12 and was winning competitions after only a decade of playing. Read about him here...

https://ivandavis.com/Bio.html

[menuet]

I think that Paderevski did start "study" the piano at 27.....

Even if his technique was not one of the best, he was sure a rekwnown pianist !

[molto-marcato]

Ok, i too believe it is possible to become a pianist starting late, but you have to be absolutely determined. If you work very hard and if you love music you will certainly make reasonable advances. The main problem is that after a certain time of hard work (maybe one or two years) effort may not be so obvious. This is a point where many amateur-musicians get frustrated and eventually quit playing.  I know at least 10-20 people (family/friends) who quit playing in this time and never started again. Of course not just piano-players.

It might take  a long time until you get to the pieces you want to play. A good teacher and lot of practice time are a must.

But sure you can, if you want

Best regards

[danny elfboy]

The main problem is that after a certain time of hard work (maybe one or two years) effort may not be so obvious. This is a point where many amateur-musicians get frustrated and eventually quit playing.  I know at least 10-20 people (family/friends) who quit playing in this time and never started again. Of course not just piano-players.

This is more a problem of music education
Usually beginners are just taught music for two three years as if it had no connection to sound, expression, acoustic, everyday life. They're presented a series of out of context boring information and expected to learn how play music and understand music by spending years with boring (if not harmless) tedious exercises devoid of any musical content. A sensible approach is one that from the very beginning provide the basis to put music into context.
As I've said many time it just astounds me how students are practicing on an instrument they don't understand nothing about. I believe that basis like explaining the nature of the piano, its history and mechanics, hence its action depending on the effect of gravity, it's big range hence its being an enbodied choir hence an instrument where automous melodic lines are put together one of the most basic form of poliphony (four parts pieces) hence the importance of understanding since the first day the importance of the bass (the foundation) and who you don't just play a two hands piece but join two independent lines so they're still independent but fuse harmoniously together, hence the exposition since the first days to the whole range of the keyboard, listening to real pieces of music and showing how what you listen has an application on the keyboard and practicing interesting tapping and singing exercise while working step by step on real non-advanced pieces of music ... not only would train musicality other than dry technique but also would decrease the amount of pianists who get frustrated (not to mention) injuried at the piano or that are only able to play like robots what's put in front of them but has really know understanding of what they're playing and how to play something else to or improvise

[nightingale11]

The main problem is that after a certain time of hard work (maybe one or two years) effort may not be so obvious. This is a point where many amateur-musicians get frustrated and eventually quit playing.  I know at least 10-20 people (family/friends) who quit playing in this time and never started again. Of course not just piano-players.

eeh... After 1-2 years(no matter age)of serious practising you should have become an advanced player taking lessons from a superlative teacher(Like Bernhard e.g.) and it's then you will start get back the amount of work you put down before(you have ingrained many patterns into your subconsious).

[iumonito]

Ah the misinformation!  Paderewski, Richter and Hoffman, like al other great pianisits, played the piano since really young.  Even in cases like Arturo Cohen, Harold Bauer and Jeffrey Cahane, these people played the piano early on and studied music a lot prior to concentrating on the piano later in life.

You can get enough knowledge to enjoy playing the piano, but never get the facility that you would if you learned the work in your teens and pre-teens.

It is exactly like learning a foreing language, you can learn it, but not native.

In fact, I would go as far as pointing out that even for people that have been playing all their lives, repertoire learned after adulthood is not as solid as repertoire learned as a teen or pre-teen.

Enjoy learning music and worry not about how good you are.

[nightingale11]

You can get enough knowledge to enjoy playing the piano, but never get the facility that you would if you learned the work in your teens and pre-teens.

It is exactly like learning a foreing language, you can learn it, but not native.

In fact, I would go as far as pointing out that even for people that have been playing all their lives, repertoire learned after adulthood is not as solid as repertoire learned as a teen or pre-teen.

Enjoy learning music and worry not about how good you are.

How do you know?
how can you know that one cannot get the same facility in playing a work if one did not learn it in youth? if the piece is not easy to you then you will not be able to play it. Facility comes if you learn it properly using good methods.

What do you mean by native? do you mean to be able to speaking in a certain accent or to know it intuitive way.(which can be learned to do later in life but will require more effort--Otherwise if this wouldn't have been possible how can actors learn to speak in other accents)?
Kids do not learn faster than adults. The reason why people think that you cannot learn a language when older is because their learning is ineffecient. For a kid it takes about 5 years to learn their native language....for an adult about 3 months and maybe 1-2 years to make it like your ''native''.

What you say are just what everyone thinks because if they do not achieve something they wanted they think they lack talent or is to old. It never occur to them that they may use ineffiecent practice.

[menuet]

Ah the misinformation!  Paderewski, [...] played the piano since really young.

It seems you're right..... To my defense, in the "art of piano" DVD they said he started to learn the piano at 27, weird.

It is exactly like learning a foreing language, you can learn it, but not native.

That I'm not sure cause you "think" in your native langage, reason why it's difficult to replace it.

Regarding music, you have everything to learn, so you don't have any bad habit to replace, then with the appropriate work, you can do well.

Everything is a matter of time. If you do something every single day, you just become good at it.

You are only limited by the time it takes to learn something, no matter (almost) how old you are.

[danny elfboy]

You can get enough knowledge to enjoy playing the piano, but never get the facility that you would if you learned the work in your teens and pre-teens.

It is exactly like learning a foreing language, you can learn it, but not native.

As already explained it has nothing to do with the myth of better information absorption or mind flexibility at a young age but with cultural conditions associated with a certain age
Children make friends easier, socialize more and doesn't limit themselve to the same old arguments or norms, they have more free time too and are less cultural conditioned for things like success, competition, fast-results ...

As far as language is concerned is known that an adult/teen can become as fluent as a native (so far as not to be recognized as non-native) as a child in a foreign language
In fact even for 7-8 years old kids is hard to become fluent in another language

The reason is that we often forget that we produce language sound with our tongue muscle. Actually we produce it by vibrating our vocal strings and resonating the sound in the diaphragm but we shape the sound with the tongue
As any other muscle tongue has a memory too
If our language lacks many sounds that are necessary to other languages we lack the muscular conditioning to produce those sounds but at the same time we have years of muscular conditioning for producing the sounds of your language
This is a problem for children too ... and it's less of a problem only for very young children

This can't overcome by just living in another country or studying the theory of a language of occasionally speaking with foreign friends. One must make the conscious effort to retrain and redondition his/her tongue to the production of the new sounds in order to become as fluent as a native in a foreign language

This applies to piano as well
Not only it's a matter of having more free time and less mental/cultural barrier of competition, impatience, success but also a matter of having more "years of life of muscular usage" to decondition. A very young child that starts playing the piano begins with very little muscular conditioning and it's easier in that instance to learn new movements.

That also implies that your stetement was wrong.
A teen has the same problem with learning the piano as an adult has because a teen too has many years of muscular conditioning (especially in sports and other) compared to a young child. The difference is whether you start at 5-6 or 25-30 not whether you start at 13-15 or 25-30 ... not much difference at all between the 14 years old beginner and the 30 years old beginner. Except free time. Both anyway need to make the conscioius effort to deconditiong their muscular memory and recondition it to piano playing. That's the whole story about "age and piano" ... all the rest is just myths, pseudoscience and rumors

[counterpoint]

I don't mean concert level virtuoso but enough to be able to play some of the basic repertory, mostly for personal amusement.
 
BTW, I'm 29, and i have never touched a piano before. 

Sounds somewhat strange to me, that you use the word "virtuoso", when you on the other side only want to play basic repertoire for personal amusement   

I don't think, that chances are high to reach a "virtuoso" level, when you begin learning with 29, never touched a piano before. But you can reach a solid amateur level, so you can play some of the piano music, you like to hear, for yourself. Assuming, that you put much time and energy in learning all the theoretical and practical things, that are necessary for piano playing. Look at a pianist: there is a person sitting at a piano with 88 keys, all he oder she does is pressing some of the keys at the right time. That's how it looks like.   
But you have to learn about reading the music, about scales and chords, about fingering, pedal, dynamics, rhythm, about styles etc. etc. etc.

It will take some years until you will be common with all these troublesome aspects of music. It's not like "My fingers are fast enough, so I can get a pianist in a few months".

[webern78]

Sounds somewhat strange to me, that you use the word "virtuoso", when you on the other side only want to play basic repertoire for personal amusement   

My choice of the word 'virtuoso' is directly linked to the type of repertory i'd like to be able to play with moderately facility.

This includes the keyboard works of Bach, late Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy and perhaps even Ligeti. From what i understand some of this stuff is extremely difficult. 

[counterpoint]

My choice of the word 'virtuoso' is directly linked to the type of repertory i'd like to be able to play with moderately facility.

This includes the keyboard works of Bach, late Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy and perhaps even Ligeti. From what i understand some of this stuff is extremely difficult. 

Yes, some of them. But there is a lot of music by Bach, Beethoven, Chopin and Debussy you should be able to play after a year or two. It's a wide field from the advanced beginner to the virtuoso   

[nocturnelover]

Actually I would like to ask this question to even though I started half way through last year and I was sixteen (not 29) and in a week I turn 17 is it possible for me to get to virtuoso level or at least semi virtuoso level. I want to be able to play all of Chopin's Nocturnes and Etudes properly, perfectly and flawlessly it is my dream. But is it possible?

[danny elfboy]

Actually I would like to ask this question to even though I started half way through last year and I was sixteen (not 29) and in a week I turn 17 is it possible for me to get to virtuoso level or at least semi virtuoso level. I want to be able to play all of Chopin's Nocturnes and Etudes properly, perfectly and flawlessly it is my dream. But is it possible?

It depends on you !! YOU alone !!
It doesn't depend on your age (which seems like a way to avoid responsability)
It depends on whether you find the dedication to create the perfect conditions for serious learning. The fact that age is correlated with these conditions (i.e. the younger you are the more free time you have) doesn't mean that you can't make the effort to find those conditions in your life now

This is maybe the time where a real musician diffentiates itself from a "music typewriter"
The hard work and the sacrifice and humbleness
You know what? There was not concept of age in the middleages and no one knew what "age" one was because it was not something they conceived
Imagine what your life would be if you were just a person and know nothing about your age, had not concept of age or any importance of it. What would your life be, what would you do?

You would just do what you like to do, spend time with the people you want, attempt to realize your dreams. You would have no stupid barriers that focus on a meaningless number in your birth certificate rather than you as a person and an individual
Begin thinking like that and you'll go far. Cling to the mental barriers and you will sabotage yourself

[nightingale11]

It depends on you !! YOU alone !!
It doesn't depend on your age (which seems like a way to avoid responsability)
It depends on whether you find the dedication create the perfect conditiong for serious learning. The fact that age is correlated with these conditions (i.e. the younger you are the more free time you have) doesn't mean that you can't make the effort to find those conditions in your life now

This is maybe the time where a real musician diffentiate itself from a "music typewriter"
The hard word and the sacrifice and humbleness
You know what? There was not concept of age in the middleages and no one knows what "age" one was because it was not something the conceived
Imagine what your life would be if you were just a person and know nothing about your age, had not concept of age or any importance of it. What would your life be, would you do?

You would just do what you like to do, spend time with the people you want, attempt to realize your dreams. You would have no stupid barriers that focus on a meaningless number in your birth certifica rather than you as a person and an individual
Begin thinking like that and you'll go fat. Cling to the mental barriers and you will sabotage yourself

excellently said!

[iumonito]

As already explained it has nothing to do with the myth of better information absorption or mind flexibility at a young age but with cultural conditions associated with a certain age
Children make friends easier, socialize more and doesn't limit themselve to the same old arguments or norms, they have more free time too and are less cultural conditioned for things like success, competition, fast-results ...

As far as language is concerned is known that an adult/teen can become as fluent as a native (so far as not to be recognized as non-native) as a child in a foreign language
In fact even for 7-8 years old kids is hard to become fluent in another language

The reason is that we often forget that we produce language sound with our tongue muscle. Actually we produce it by vibrating our vocal strings and resonating the sound in the diaphragm but we shape the sound with the tongue
As any other muscle tongue has a memory too
If our language lacks many sounds that are necessary to other languages we lack the muscular conditioning to produce those sounds but at the same time we have years of muscular conditioning for producing the sounds of your language
This is a problem for children too ... and it's less of a problem only for very young children

This can't overcome by just living in another country or studying the theory of a language of occasionally speaking with foreign friends. One must make the conscious effort to retrain and redondition his/her tongue to the production of the new sounds in order to become as fluent as a native in a foreign language

This applies to piano as well
Not only it's a matter of having more free time and less mental/cultural barrier of competition, impatience, success but also a matter of having more "years of life of muscular usage" to decondition. A very young child that starts playing the piano begins with very little muscular conditioning and it's easier in that instance to learn new movements.

That also implies that your stetement was wrong.
A teen has the same problem with learning the piano as an adult has because a teen too has many years of muscular conditioning (especially in sports and other) compared to a young child. The difference is whether you start at 5-6 or 25-30 not whether you start at 13-15 or 25-30 ... not much difference at all between the 14 years old beginner and the 30 years old beginner. Except free time. Both anyway need to make the conscioius effort to deconditiong their muscular memory and recondition it to piano playing. That's the whole story about "age and piano" ... all the rest is just myths, pseudoscience and rumors

Right brain, left brain.  Enough said.  You don't know what you are talking about.

[danny elfboy]

Right brain, left brain.  Enough said.  You don't know what you are talking about.

What you know about right brain and left brain?
I do know about it I just can't understand what the hell it has to do with what I'm saying
I can't people how people are naive not to understand that when you make idiotic replies like "I'm laughing" "you don't what you're talking about" "you're insane" "enogh said" you are just showing others how pathetic you are in lacking any kind of argumentation to prove your point

By the way this is not an example of my theorizing about things. The world is full of examples of people who even learning a language at 30 became able to speak it as fluently as a native. In fact the neurological literature is full of those examples as they have been matter of studies and topic for books. So it's not "it could be" ... but IT IS and IT HAS BEEN.

Let me explain something about not letting your huge egocentrism take over:

just because you don't know something it doesn't mean it isn't true
just because you haven't observed something it doesn't it can't happen
just because you're unable to do something it doesn't mean everyone isn't

https://www.tsuyama-ct.ac.jp/kats/papers/kn7/kn7.htm

[iumonito]

Not lack of arguments, but of interest.  Second languages (and arguably piano playing learned as an adult) reside in the oposite side of the brain than where your native language (and the pieces you learned younger) resides.  It simply does not fire away as smoothly.

I should know, I operate entirely on a second language, and I keep learning repertoire as an adult, which no matter how you split it, it is not in the same level of permanency in my brain as the stuff that I learned when I was 13.

Here are some links on both sides of the issue, which entirely exhaust my interest in engaging with you.  Best of lucks to the original poster; one can enojy music immensily without having native fluency in it.

https://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1460-9568.2006.04785.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ejn

https://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1078&context=crede

https://www.lsadc.org/info/ling-fields-neuro.cfm

[danny elfboy]

Not lack of arguments, but of interest.  Second languages (and arguably piano playing learned as an adult) reside in the oposite side of the brain than where your native language (and the pieces you learned younger) resides.  It simply does not fire away as smoothly.

I should know, I operate entirely on a second language, and I keep learning repertoire as an adult, which no matter how you split it, it is not in the same level of permanency in my brain as the stuff that I learned when I was 13.

That's because you DON'T KNOW how to make it as natural as it was before
As I explained mostly is an issue of muscle (tongue) conditioning.
If one doesn't make an effort to decondition the muscles of sound production he/she has little chances of become as fluent as in the native language but it's not impossible

If you were not egocentric you would understand that your experience and limitations can't be used to make universal rules

The link I provided not only scientifically disproved the critical period hypothesis (because it's not even a theory ... just an hypothesis) but even acknolwedge do exist people who became so fluent in the second language learned after puberty that people can't tell they're foreign natives

[iumonito]

You probably couldn't tell that I am.  But I can.

That you cannot make a universal inference from a single example does not negate that a single example is representative of a universal rule.

Why do you care anyway?  Go do some Hanon.

[rc]

For what it's worth, to the OP who wants to play advanced repertory for his own pleasure, I would say you could achieve the bulk of your goals.  No matter what level you achieve (it's up to you how much energy you invest), you will find piano a fulfilling endeavor.

So for Webern78, I have two books I believe a piano-rookie should have:  Mastery by Leonard, and The Art of Piano Playing by Neuhaus.  Mastery has the right attitudes to approach learning something like piano, and Art of Piano Playing is loaded with wisdom and details of playing the instrument.  Neither are huge reads, both can be picked up again and again throughout your journey.

Belief in the possibility is the most important thing for the first steps in a foreign area, cultivate that above all, reject whatever doesn't support it.  Self doubt won't help.  The only intimate way I know to illustrate the possibility is my own experience.  I began piano at 19, and now 3 years later I'm competently playing intermediate Haydn, Mozart and Bach.  Mind you, this is based on a fair level of determination.  The first 8 months or so I was only dicking around, but when I decided I would (and COULD) become a top notch musician, I became obsessed for a while...  Read everything I could get my hands on (If you'd like more recommended reading I'd be happy to dig up what I can for you), planned carefully and began to work out a practice routine.  Found a teacher, bought a digital piano, got a loan for an upright.  I try to control my work schedule to about 6hrs/day so I can have plenty of time & energy for practice, which also means I've adapted my lifestyle for less income, and to live a healthier lifestyle (less partying, controlling sleep habits, eating better).

I don't know whether it's possible to attain the kind of fluency of one who began earlier in youth, I will never know exactly what it's like to have.  I would like to play for others, small concerts, teaching...  Make a living by music if I can.  So I choose to believe that it's possible.  If I'm dreaming, reality will not be denied.

I would also chip in that "I'm right and you don't know what you're talking about" type comments don't add anything to the discussion.  If you're going to make a point don't stop halfway!

[danny elfboy]

You probably couldn't tell that I am.  But I can.

That you cannot make a universal inference from a single example does not negate that a single example is representative of a universal rule.

It does. It's called faulty ampliative logic ... one of the biggest logical errors out there
You're representative of nothing but yourself, the non-existing universal rule is disproved by the thousands of "exception". For logic it takes nothing but one exception to destroy an universal rule.

[sharon_f]

In fact, I would go as far as pointing out that even for people that have been playing all their lives, repertoire learned after adulthood is not as solid as repertoire learned as a teen or pre-teen.

I haven't played all my life, but I did start taking lessons again after not touching a piano for almost 35 years. One of the first pieces I worked on with my new teacher was a Bach French Suite. I had played 4 movements of it back when I was 17 and wanted to finish and learn the whole suite.  My "newly" learned Bach was at a level so much better than it ever was back when I was a teen.

[overscore]

Why not proceed on the assumption that it is possible. There's nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

I hate people who go around saying 'You can't do this because of such and such a principle'. It's crap. Didn't Van Gogh become a painter at about 30?

[iumonito]

It does. It's called faulty ampliative logic ... one of the biggest logical errors out there
You're representative of nothing but yourself, the non-existing universal rule is disproved by the thousands of "exception". For logic it takes nothing but one exception to destroy an universal rule.

Danny, how do you like your Goedel?

Should we just ignore each other?  You make me feel my cup of tea is rather full, when I know it is instead rather empty.  I don't feel you have anything to teach me, nor do I feel you have any interest in learning from me.  From you, I am only learning working on my patience and my failure to ignore you.  I shall try harder.