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Topic: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12  (Read 3149 times)

Offline Its_about_nothing

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Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
on: February 21, 2004, 12:01:39 PM
I've decided to learn this piece. Does anyone have any advice for me on this piece? Is there anything I have to know about it?

Thanks in advance.
...

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #1 on: February 21, 2004, 02:01:25 PM
this is the 1st piece i ever learnt.
learn the arpeggios as chords 1st, till youve got the whole piece in chords(only takes a littel inginuity).
After learning the chords shapes - just learn the arpeggiation - if this is difficult, play 1 measure at a time, and repeat it ad infinitum till its mastered, then move on to the next.
i think this is what i did.
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline anda

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #2 on: February 21, 2004, 02:33:45 PM
Quote
learn the arpeggios as chords 1st, till youve got the whole piece in chords(only takes a littel inginuity).


i don't think that's a good idea in this etude's case - of course i agree on harmonic learning, but that's something different - for learning, write on every key change the chors - E flat, f, and so on.

the biggest risk here is on placing accents every third note - while the only accents is on the first note in the arpeggio. learn bar by bar, play every bar until you can play it in tempo using the first note to get an impulse that can get you all the way up and down again. should sound like the wind

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #3 on: February 21, 2004, 04:29:25 PM
You also should practice it without pedal for a while so that you make sure the repeated notes are very leagto. There should be no "hopping". To get a good movement for that, I played the first three notes, but held the third and switched to the thumb without lifting the 5th finger.

Also, it's kind of hard to put a metronmoe to it (imho) because when you hear it in your mind I think it feels like triplets.

Offline Its_about_nothing

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #4 on: February 21, 2004, 09:50:44 PM
Thanks for the helpful advice.  :)
...

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #5 on: February 22, 2004, 01:42:54 AM
Also, there is an accent on the first note going up AND the highest note (where you start to go back down).

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #6 on: February 22, 2004, 05:34:41 AM
Quote

should sound like the wind

Actually the ocean - the wind is #11  :)

I just played this etude in a college audition today.  I like it, but it is tiring.  You should work in endurance through playing the same measures over and over while keeping your arms and wrists loose, rather than too tight.  The right hand (for me) came naturally rather while my left took a while to keep up.  Work a lot more with the left hand because it will tend to 'fall behind' the right and become less powerful.  Check out the awesome Horowitz recording (2:28 long) for how to get a feel for what is really supposed to sound like (such as bring out the melpdy at the bottoms of each arpeggio).  I can't do it ::)
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline dj

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #7 on: February 22, 2004, 06:30:55 AM
Quote
this is the 1st piece i ever learnt.


tell me that was a typo? i didn't think that was possible
rach on!

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #8 on: February 22, 2004, 09:25:29 AM
I didn't know Horowitz recorded it!! Where can I get it!!! Please!

Offline Beethoven87

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #9 on: February 22, 2004, 09:15:53 PM
Another thing you should pay special attention to is keeping both hands utterly in unison.  For some reason, I haven't yet heard anyone on this forum mention this considerable difficulty in pieces with long, fast, unison passages.  This is another thing that will be significantly helped by practising (starting slowly, obviously) without the pedal.  Also, I've always found that playing them slowly without pedal and stacatto works expecially well for keeping them together.
Et cetera

Offline e60m5

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #10 on: February 23, 2004, 02:53:01 AM
You can find my (unbelievably bad) recording here:

https://e60m5.ath.cx/etudeop25no12.mp3

Recorded in my bedroom with my laptop microphone. Yay for bad sound quality. (And bad playing.)

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #11 on: February 23, 2004, 01:57:59 PM
yes this was the 1st piece i ever learnt. previously all i had played were technical exercises(eg. hanon etc).
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #12 on: February 23, 2004, 02:14:56 PM
hey e60m5 that recording is really good!
i really enjoyed that, u have very good technique for a 16 year old, how long have u been playing?
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #13 on: February 23, 2004, 02:41:14 PM
Quote
You can find my (unbelievably bad) recording here:

https://e60m5.ath.cx/etudeop25no12.mp3

Recorded in my bedroom with my laptop microphone. Yay for bad sound quality. (And bad playing.)

It's a good idea to lay off the beer before playing  ;).
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline comme_le_vent

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #14 on: February 23, 2004, 05:41:24 PM
are you referring to the wrong notes or are you just jealous?
the only think wrong with that recording are the few wrong notes, and it should be more dynamically faithful to the score(near the start after that diminuendo, it should go straight back to forte)
other than that, its a fine performance.
https://www.chopinmusic.net/sdc/

Great artists aim for perfection, while knowing that perfection itself is impossible, it is the driving force for them to be the best they can be - MC Hammer

Offline BET23

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #15 on: February 23, 2004, 05:47:29 PM
hey, i liked that recording, there are wrong notes, but you dont lose the piece, you dont stumble to much and lose your place, and the mood, the feeling of a stormy ocean, is there, i like it,

great job, if you clean it up more, it will be flawless, really great...

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #16 on: February 23, 2004, 11:27:24 PM
Quote
are you referring to the wrong notes or are you just jealous?
the only think wrong with that recording are the few wrong notes, and it should be more dynamically faithful to the score(near the start after that diminuendo, it should go straight back to forte)
other than that, its a fine performance.

What?  Aside from wrong notes and dynamics it was fine?  What else is there?

*and no, there's no jealousy here
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline MikeLauwrie

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #17 on: February 24, 2004, 11:03:37 AM
Isn't it supposed to be an exercise in 10ths?
I find that the best way to get the notes is to think of it in thirds, look at where you thumbs are, and if your thumbs go the right places then so should the fingers!

I think there is a tendency to rush it and go to fast, although it has been performed at a high tempo, don't forget that it's music, I find that it is nice to add more dynamic contrast than is notated as well.

Probably the most important things with this piece are the two things which have already been mentioned: make sure you aren't grouping the notes in threes, and make sure that you accent the correct notes. On the latter point if you do accent the top and bottom notes ( although not the top one in the longer 'arpeggios') it will be less obvious if you play a couple of duff ones in the middle - although try to avoid that as well!

Offline e60m5

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #18 on: February 28, 2004, 10:09:26 PM
Mmmmm... There are wrong notes, as I'm aware of, and the dynamics could be better. I've played for 12 years.

allchopin, any suggestions for improvement?

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #19 on: February 28, 2004, 11:00:11 PM
I gave a little advice in one of my above posts....
At what age did you play this piece, e6?
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline Askenaz7

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #20 on: February 29, 2004, 02:04:24 AM
after the 3 first notes you continue with the accent to the next note and so on .Also for the ultimate practise study the piece only with the first and last note from the octave playing with guide of the first note wich repeat higher ;)

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #21 on: February 29, 2004, 04:50:30 AM
No, for the ultimate practice, play it without the pedal.
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline chopiabin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #22 on: February 29, 2004, 07:14:50 PM
Yeah, you have to try to make the transition between the repeated notes as legato as possible.

Offline e60m5

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #23 on: March 03, 2004, 12:04:22 AM
16.

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #24 on: March 03, 2004, 03:37:59 AM
Ah, same here.  I guess I could add another tip, and that is just play it a lot.
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline bitus

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #25 on: March 05, 2004, 02:09:39 AM
I don't think it matters if you play legato or if you break between "chord" changes... the piece goes too fast, and it's almost impossible to tell the difference (80). Plus, if you are constant, you might play it better if you don't play it legato. Just don't get your arm too tight... think it above the keys, and practice relaxed. Try practicing this:
play the c g c then stop on the c with the thumb and put the 5th finger on the upper c without repeating the sound. This will help you in moving your wrist, and playing it cristal clear.
e60, you definetly need to work slowly with the metronome, starting at half tempo, with beats on the quarter. Take it at 100 bpm, and get it to 160, as it's written, even if it seems to you it's too slow. I guarantee amazing results.
Also, check for accents. I know there are accents written on the score, but you must create phrasing, and not allways hit the accented note.
And allchopin... playing it a lot will not help... you can really hurt your hands if you play this piece too much.
Does this help?
The Bitus.
Be still, my soul: thy God doth undertake
To guide the future, as He has the past.

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #26 on: March 05, 2004, 04:23:12 AM
Quote
And allchopin... playing it a lot will not help... you can really hurt your hands if you play this piece too much.

what are you talking about? In order to get good at anything, one must play it over and over (unless you have abnormal abilities).  Playing it repeatedly wrong will get your hands messed up.
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline bitus

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #27 on: March 05, 2004, 07:09:48 PM
Indeed, practice makes perfection, but haven't you ever posted a reply saying "you have to practice wise"? If you play it over and over again, there won't be any miracle.
I've been playing this etude for a long time and i know it is very dangerous to start playing it over and over again, because it's most comfortable for the brain. Instead of playing it like a machine, one should allways seek new ways of practicing it, so that it wouldn't become a routine. This is basics in practicing...
Plus, getting the notes right is just the first level. What about phrasing, dynamics, tension, etc? You don't get that by repeating it 100 times a day, but you will get bored and play it mechanicly.
The Bitus
Be still, my soul: thy God doth undertake
To guide the future, as He has the past.

Offline allchopin

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #28 on: March 06, 2004, 12:15:47 AM
Quote
You don't get that by repeating it 100 times a day, but you will get bored and play it mechanicly.

Not if you.... don't.
A modern house without a flush toilet... uncanny.

Offline trunks

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #29 on: April 15, 2004, 01:13:56 AM
Hi e60m5,

Your playing is not bad at all, if a bit rushed. I would play it at a more relaxed tempo to allow more time for the harmony to be heard. The intervals of a 10th (major and minor) are such pleasure to the ears that I won't want them to sound so brief and hurried.

Hey again, I'm still curious on your nickname - e60m5 . . . ::)
Peter (Hong Kong)
part-time piano tutor
amateur classical concert pianist

Offline bitus

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #30 on: April 15, 2004, 02:46:09 AM
I just realized these days that this etude should sound like a machine-gun :) ; every note should be heard separately, but integrated into a big phrase. I especially had problems when coming down, at the last arpegio, i would rush it and play only half of the notes. I found that having high movement of the fingers and very loose wrist helps. Also, i am playing it mf, but the pedal makes it sound like ff, therefore i am saving energy and playing it continously for as much time i want.
The Bitus
Be still, my soul: thy God doth undertake
To guide the future, as He has the past.

Offline donjuan

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 02:52:30 AM
The recording lacked direction.  When I say this, I mean, the music needs to move forward and develop into something special.  I recommend lisening to Gyorgy Cziffra's recording of this piece on his "Great Pianists of the Twentieth Century" CD.  The music is excellent.  Cziffra has creates vivid colors and has the power to move mountains with his playing. :D ;D

Offline argerich_smitten

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 25 No. 12
Reply #32 on: June 08, 2004, 09:09:02 AM
    I think what Bitus mentioned earlier about practicing it different ways is really important.  The more ways you can approach a piece, the more secure it will become.  I tried various things when learning this piece such as starting from the top of the runs (top-bottom-top) and playing the piece backwards (very easy to do as pieces go  ;)).  I can't say much for the backwards thing, but starting from the top was really helpful.  Naturally there should be lots of no pedal slow left hand only passage work.  
    Also, I don't know if 'gunshots' is the best description of the way this piece should sound.  I'm not saying that it shouldn't be clear, but there are a LOT of notes to this piece; hearing every one distinctly would get very tiring.  
 

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