Fake piano playing.

[zheer]

  Recently i played for a distinguished pianist and a professor of piano at a piano course, well at the end of the performance she told me that i faked it and that i had obviously heard these grand pianist and what i did was an imitation. I thoght ok, so i asked do you mean fantacy playing, she said yes.
               She start teaching me the difference between listing to what one is playing with the more correct listinig FOR the music, ie listinig for the outcome. She also told me to come back and clean her piano with a feather brush, because thats what i do at the piano.She then sarted to teach me the difference between feeling the piano keys and the more correct way of actually creating music. Intrestingly i was also told to play what is actually written, at one point i was totally lost when she told me "you dont play with your hand, your eyes, your ears or even with your mind"
       Anyone have similar experience.

[jakev2.0]

Uh oh...did you try to pull a "Hatto" zheer?

[zheer]

  I wish.

[counterpoint]

I don't quite understand, what's the meaning of "fake" in the sense of this professor. Does she mean, you only provide a lightly sketch, instead of a dramatic interpretation? There are different opinions of how much or how less dramatic is desirable. But I would not call a light and shy playing a "fake".  It's great part of the personality of the pianist. Some are more hysterical and melodramatic  than  others.

[zheer]

I don't quite understand, what's the meaning of "fake"

  Hi, well a number of things, 1- a feather brush touch which she did'nt like, prefering note clarity all the time and secondly she thought it was an imitation in style.Each time i explained that thats my vision of the piece she would say "but thats not whats written, compose if thats what you wont".I bought her CD and she plays the piano better than a number of famous pianist, so i found it really hard to argue with her, also she has met Arthur Rubenstine, interviewd Brendle, and Murry Puriah. To be honest i walked away knowing that i know nothing, but that i have a "gift" as she put.

[Kassaa]

  Hi, well a number of things, 1- a feather brush touch which she did'nt like, prefering note clarity all the time and secondly she thought it was an imitation in style.Each time i explained that thats my vision of the piece she would say "but thats not whats written, compose if thats what you wont".I bought her CD and she plays the piano better than a number of famous pianist, so i found it really hard to argue with her, also she has met Arthur Rubenstine, interviewd Brendle, and Murry Puriah. To be honest i walked away knowing that i know nothing, but that i have a "gift" as she put.

Who is she?

[pianistimo]

what if it is joyce hatto?

well, in any case - i like her playing and don't think she resorts to any sort of unnecessary 'cheating.'

as i see it - you can obtain good results from the piano with many various styles and manners of playing.  BUT, you cannot save your tendons and ligaments from damage if you play a lot of fast music attempting to bring out every single note with force.  you just hurt yourself.  so take some of what she says - and mix it with the feather technique (imo).  of course, this might make her mad - but speed and lightness go together.  if you want to play really fast - lighten up.

i've found even with volume - that i can equal the volume of dynamic and  play less forcefully from the body and arms.  the weight of the hands alone can cause a mighty mighty sound.

see if - in her playing - you hear an extraneous buzz in the bass.  that is from hitting notes from too high. if you 'stroke' them with flat hands - you'll get no extraneous 'buzzing' and very clear precise sounds.  hitting keys too hard gives you extra sounds from the piano itself that you don't want in recording.

it's a fine balance - and you don't have to say anything to her.  just listen to what sounds you want to produce and use some of what she says and some of what you are already doing.

[quantum]

Not everything that will be taught to you will be useful to YOU in particular.  You have to take from here and there, and maybe discard some ideas that just seem not right to you.  Trust yourself.

Just because a person is a great pianist or teacher doesn't mean they know it all, or everything they know is correct. 

I've played at some master classes which I would describe as being pretty bizarre.  From some guy telling me if he can push my hands out of place I'm not playing deep into the keys enough, to some other guy demonstrating Liszt accents by making a fist and playing them.  My teacher explained it is more important to get the general idea of why they were making such comments, and further investigate and create a solution. 

One of my teachers always told me: "you don't have to do anything I say, as long as you do something." 

[zheer]

One of my teachers always told me: "you don't have to do anything I say, as long as you do something." 

  Waw he/she sounds like a good teacher, most teachers believe that we should do exactly as told.
    Yes you made a good point,that not everything one is tought is correct.With this teacher i found many things that were so true and great to learn, but some musical thoughts were different to my own.For example attention to detail ,basically i had to play exactly everything that was written,i mean everything, that is something i don't do and i found such attention to detail (in Beethoven) was way too much and to my ears disturbing,i just did'nt like the sonata anymore.
   All the best.

[zheer]

Who is she?

   www.pianocourseswithalexandertechnique.com


   thats the websight.

[counterpoint]

For example attention to detail ,basically i had to play exactly everything that was written,i mean everything, that is something i don't do and i found such attention to detail (in Beethoven) was way too much and to my ears disturbing,i just did'nt like the sonata anymore.

You don't play everything as written? That's a little astonishing to me. Composers - especially Beethoven - do write their score extreme carefully, every sign has its meaning and its importance. That's the first thing for me too, to look exactly at the score and be as precise as possible in every detail. So a pianist has to have very good arguments to make changes in what is notated by the composer. Then, if all of the details are observed, interpretation begins: which is the best tempo for each part of the piece, where to hesitate and where to hurry, how big should the dynamic contrasts be in this special piece, use of pedal etc. There is much to obey and much freedom at the same time.

The other thing, the "Alexander Technique" - I don't know how serious you can take that. It's sort of esoteric. If you like it, it's okay, but look at Svjatoslav Richter or Alfred Brendel, they are obviously not fans of AT. I doubt, that their playing was of any interest, if they played completely without any tension.

[zheer]

. That's the first thing for me too, to look exactly at the score and be as precise as possible in every detail.


at Svjatoslav Richter or Alfred Brendel, they are obviously not fans of AT. I doubt, that their playing was of any interest, if they played completely without any tension.

   I see, well with the beethoven sonata i played the notes as written, but i learnt that thats half the story, the next thing to do is to play the notes as intended by Beethoven. This is where i played every single note in-correctly.

    The thing about Richter, well am no expert , but her approach is very phylosophical and psycological  she argues that piano playing is 95% mental ,she learns things like the goldberg variation away from the pianio. To be honest i get the impression that this is a lady  with an IQ of 170 so it takes a lot time to fully undestand her philosophy.

[pianistimo]

she's probably a very good teacher, zheer!  i'm now assured you're probably not going to be actually tensing as  much as allowing energy to flow.  things do change (technques) with the times - and people look for shortcuts and faster ways to learn things - but the old fashioned ways - who can beat?!!!! 

if she can teach you about mental practice - go for it!  not many people can fully do this and practice makes perfect.  practice whatever she gives you and do it 120%.  i've learned not to argue and just listen to what each teacher offers.  don't say - but, this person or that teacher said 'blah blah.'  it's just wasting time.  just do everything she says and occasionally ask respectful questions about what they say - so you are on the same page.

great you have a good teacher!  if she plays well, and you like her - it's a long term thing for a while, right!

[pianistimo]

about the beethoven.  didn't beethoven have a smaller piano?  therefore - in places like measure 103-104 in the opus 10 #3 - you don't have the full octaves.  i loathe to play what's written there.

[zheer]

great you have a good teacher!  if she plays well, and you like her - it's a long term thing for a while, right!

  Hi, no i dont have privat piano lessons with her, for a start it would be way to expensive.

  About Beethoven yes you made an excellent point, for a start piano those days were so different and were even tuned differently. Am talking about attention to detail ,not note playing or even dynamics, for instance a staccato note is either short,sharp, accented, not accented ,slightly delayed,detached or not detached,loud soft,the end of a phrase or the begining of a phrase,accel to the stacctao or not, which finger,which part of the finger,what style ect ect.so you see this is just one note.

[rc]

she's probably a very good teacher, zheer!

I was actually going to say the opposite...  If her comments are so confusing, or you need 170 IQ to make sense of what she's saying, she's not doing a very good job of communicating.  I would think the goal would be to walk away knowing something new, not nothing!

To be fair, it doesn't sound like there was a whole lot of time for her to elaborate...  Some of the comments sound like they could bring productive experimentation, like different ways of listening, that could be useful to work at, the way we listen while playing makes a significant difference in the outcome.  I think professional level pianists listen differently when playing, in a mental-focus sense of the word, but I also wonder if that's more relevant when the other aspects of playing are already taken care of - like not having to think about technique...

Feather duster critique could be a matter of taste, but it could also be the case that you use it excessively, and maybe your playing could benefit from more variety of touch?

"you dont play with your hand, your eyes, your ears or even with your mind" sounds like an insult, I don't see what possible use could come of that comment...

[tds]

this is a lady  with an IQ of 170

what makes the difference between 170 and plain 70 IQers when in the end you dont understand the message from neither mouth? think about it. tds

[counterpoint]

"you dont play with your hand, your eyes, your ears or even with your mind" sounds like an insult, I don't see what possible use could come of that comment...

To me, it seems, that this professor want to chain her students in her own beliefs. It's like: forget all of what you learned until now and then begin from scratch with my way of piano playing, which is the best of the world, of course. If you believe in me you will be one of the best pianists in short time.

I know this sort of teachers all too well.     

[zheer]

. It's like: forget all of what you learned until now and then begin from scratch with my way of piano playing, which is the best of the world,

  That is a very accurate discription, there is an element of brain washing i've noticed with teacher, a previous teacher strongly believed in finger strengthining ect ect,where-as this teacher the very opposite.Luckly i've learnt to just walk away when people get extreem in their beliefs.

  Yes good point rc and tds.

[pianistimo]

but, she might well be able to help with the idea of mental practice.  i say, never burn bridges.  there is always something you can learn from each teacher.  perhaps, also, she didn't mean the words she said about 'where you play from' as an insult.  perhaps she meant that you play from the heart.

i am careful - as you - to play from both the heart and brain - but some who are extremely passionate and romantic type players insist it is only the heart (that is because of the 170 iq).

[jericho]

    The thing about Richter, well am no expert , but her approach is very phylosophical and psycological  she argues that piano playing is 95% mental ,she learns things like the goldberg variation away from the pianio. To be honest i get the impression that this is a lady  with an IQ of 170 so it takes a lot time to fully undestand her philosophy.

Are you refering to Richter or your teacher? I just find it very confusing.

Anyway, follow the one which best suits you. There is no absolutely correct way of playing. I mean look at Richter, Horowitz, Michelangeli, and Hofmann...each of them has different styles of playing things but still managed to be the greatest pianists in history. Use the one that works for you.

[pianistimo]

or, combine them!

[invictious]

Combine them and sound...like a hybrid!

I wouldn't recommend imitating them, but develop your own. After all, that's how you become great!.

[zheer]

but, she might well be able to help with the idea of mental practice. 

  Mental practice is'nt 100% effective,sure with enough knowledge in music theory it is possible to learn a piece of music like a conductor and memorize the score in a library.However as we know piano playing is also a skill like ice skating, thus it's important to spend hours at the piano training mind and body to creat music.

   Thanks invictious, yes its important to combine methods so that eventually one has their own style.What i have learnt is to avoid the un-neccessary.