Repertory plan

[desordre]

 Dear fellows:
 OK. That's my turn now: I really need some help with my repertory. Let me explain the situation in a few words.
 I've been playing the piano for the last 15 years or so. Fortunately in some respects, but unfortunately to my piano history, I am a classical guitar player as well. My professional career is related to both, but centered on the later. However, now that I'm approaching my 30's I decide to resume my piano playing and push it to my very personal limits. To do so, I'm thinking about a plan of repertory and that's the point: I want your kind opinion about it. It's important to say that despite the fact that I did play repertory by these and other composers, some of it more difficult, I am not sattisfied with my own results, and I'm returning to play after a couple of years gap. Because of that, please consider that I'm ready to play the first group properly, and nothing else. Here's the list (I think that each group shall take a year):

 Part 1: to get some fresh air
 Bach: Prelude and fugue in C minor (WTC I)
 Mozart: Sonata K 280
 Chopin: Polonaise opus 26/1
 Brahms: Klavierstücke opus 117
 Debussy: Preludes 9 and 12 from book 1

 Part 2: to warm up
 Bach: Toccata 5 BWV 914
 Beethoven: Sonata opus 2/1
 Chopin: a set of the Preludes opus 28 (ca.10', including at least two challenging ones)
 Brahms: Klavierstücke opus 118
 Debussy: Children's Corner

 Part 3: OK...
 Bach: Another P & F (A minor from book 1 for instance)
 Mozart: Sonata K 310
 Chopin: Scherzo 2
 Liszt: a set of the Anees de Pelerinage (no idea about what exactly)
 Debussy: Preludes 10 (book 1), and  3 (book 2)

 Part 4: (no comments available)
 Bach: Sonata BWV 964
 Beethoven: one of the Sonatas opus 31, or opus 81a, or opus 53...
 Chopin: another major work (ballade or scherzo)
 Brahms: Rhapsodies opus 79
 Debussy: Estampes

 Thanks in advance for any suggestions, considerations, corrections, alterations, comments of any kind. Best wishes!

[pianistimo]

just for fun maybe switch to scarlatti in group #4.  group #3 - maybe the english or french suites  of bach.  the italian concerto is cool, too! 

why are you so careful with the beethoven.  learn as many of the sonatas as you can.  they're never a waste of time.  end up with a latter one for good measure.

you're missing some 20th century pieces.  try some barber.  poulenc.  or whatever suits your fancy.

if i were to do it over again -i'd be wayyyyy less careful.  i'd sightread two preludes ahead of the one i was on - and work an extra fugue.  that way - in a year or two i'd have had the entire BOOK of preludes and fugues.  the only thing that stops us is our imagination that we are limited.  even with limited time - sightreading eVERY night - for an hour - really helps.  just for fun.  relaxed and no pressure.  work out a measure or two of fingering.

[desordre]

 Dear Pianistimo:
 Thank you for your attention and advice.
 About Bach, the idea of an entire suite is something that interests me a lot, particularly the 2nd English.  Maybe it's a good idea to replace the WTC of the part 3 with that, what do you think?
 Scarlatti is a composer that I already play some works. To be very honest, the only sonata that I know (is it possible to know all of them?) and really love is Kk. 9. I have a plan to play it with one or two more, but I have no idea about what.

 Beethoven. Yes, I really agree with you, and if I had the time (and skill) I would love to play the whole package, from opus 49/2 to opus 106. However, I have the same desire about Mozart's, and this is and always was a huge problem: what to play, since there is no time of study enough? Considering this, I made a choice based on what I love the most. By the way, in this particular, my real goal is opus 53. It's my favorite of all Beethoven's sonatas and, in my most humble side, I don't think I will be able to play the last five. So...
 
 Ops...20th century. I forgot to say my plans about this. Given the fact that it is my principal field of interest, especially late(st) 19th and early 20th century, I'm working on this on separate. Now, I'm preparing a recital with spanish music: Granados' Danzas Espanolas 2, 5, 8 and 11; Mompou's Musica Callada (book 3); Falla's Homenaje; and Turina's Danzas opus 55. Perhaps I'll add some Albeniz latter in the year.

 Last, but not least, when you wrote "the only thing that stops us is our imagination that we are limited", you just read my mind: 100% agree, and that's what I'm about: figure out what these limits are, if there are any.
 
 Thanks again, and best wishes. Any further comments will be highly appreciated.

[pianistimo]

dear desordre,

you didn't further explain the spanish repertoire.  are you playing this on piano or guitar.  frankly, i wish i could hear those on guitar.  in fact, i would LOVE to hear a rendition of the waldstein on classical guitar, too.  do you think you could manage that?  post it soon.

now - what you are probably going to be good at with piano are EASILY the suites.  you understand the concept of the suite by playing guitar.

also, finger light music - mozart, scarlatti.

faure thought very harpishly.  harp /guitar - sorta similar.  debussy.  ravel.  granados (as you said).  you could interpret faure very well.  some nocturnes.  i played the fourth one and it was a wonderful free feeling.  i'll try to find it and post a little of it.

[pianistimo]

about the limits.  i believe it is comprehending the music we are playing.  it's much easier as you get into your 30's because you take the time to try to understand the composer and the music.  also, not to try to learn things too fast at first.  there is a natural rhythm that you get into - for practice - and if you break things into manageable chunks - there really is no limit as to what you can learn.  it's best - as you say - to take the harder stuff later.  but, no sense in making it ALL wait. 

to me, music is like reading a letter someone has written.  you may, at first, read the literal message.  then later - between the lines.  then later several more layers suddenly appear.  harmonies - beautiful motifs from previous melody - broken - rearranged - sometimes totally transfigured. 

hey.  i have it!  we make the waldstein a sort of piano/guitar duo of sorts.  you record the basic lh part for piano and make some of the rh for guitar.  record it twice.  voila. 

[pianistimo]

everything up to the fermata (this is op 53) is piano.  then guitar (perhaps duo guitars).  measure 35-36 piano again.  measure 37-81  guitar.  82-83 piano.  84-85 guitar.  then repeat of piano intro.  or continue to measure 89 with guitar and switch to piano at measure 90.  have to work the rest out.

the second mvt. all guitar duo

third - combo of piano and guitar - guitar taking melody of lh.

[desordre]

Dear Pianistimo:
 The spanish recital is a kind of link. I did play all these composers in the guitar, as you thought, but this time is on the piano.

 About the Bach suites, what you said is sometimes a problem, not a solution. The standard repertory of Bach to the guitar is made of transcription of the lute suites, as you know, and after playing all of these I am more interested in his preludes and fugues, and sonatas. Of course, my background in this field would be of great help to myself, and maybe the English 2nd will be a brand and cool choice in the future.

 Oh, boy... I think it's rather impossible to play the opus 53 on the guitar. A guitar duo is probably more likely to handle it. However, your futher suggestion is interesting. I had a duo guitar/piano, playing the guitar part. One of my future plans is to make this, but as a one-man duo  Perhaps, your idea could be useful.

 Yeap: I love Mozart, Faure, Debussy and Ravel. Unfortunately, the latter is out of my plans because the two works that I really get a kick from are (guess what?) Miroirs and Gaspard, and I think I must born again to play both.
 Fauré's Nocturnes are quite something. I studied the first, but never finished it properly. After my spanish music recital I actually want to get french, and his music will figure for sure.

********

(...)
about the limits. i believe it is comprehending the music we are playing. it's much easier as you get into your 30's because you take the time to try to understand the composer and the music. also, not to try to learn things too fast at first. there is a natural rhythm that you get into - for practice - and if you break things into manageable chunks - there really is no limit as to what you can learn. it's best - as you say - to take the harder stuff later. but, no sense in making it ALL wait.
(...)

  I agree. But here I am a bit confused yet, because in the past I was in a kind of "difficulty rush", and the results were unsatisfatory. This sequence of repertory that I presented above is what I think  could work to take me through the steps I want. I guess that there are neither "gaps" between the parts, nor parts that adds nothing to the former one. Of course, I'm not sure about this, and that's the  principal reason of this thread. 

(...)
to me, music is like reading a letter someone has written. you may, at first, read the literal message. then later - between the lines. then later several more layers suddenly appear. harmonies - beautiful motifs from previous melody - broken - rearranged - sometimes totally transfigured.
(...)

 I like your comparison: it summons the whole process of "understanding" in music.

 Thanks a lot again. Best wishes!

[pianistimo]

well, as i see it - the gap would be choosing the same composers over and over again.  i would expect to see more variety among composers per year.  how to solve this?  play each group per semester and not year.  yes!  it's a lot of music - but you can do it!  keep playing the old stuff to performance standard WHILE learning the new stuff.  then, you're basically over your facination for the same composers and move on to at least the same number of composers you never played in your life.  this impresses people.  that you can play - well for me - scriabin.  fields.  barber.  to understand how they moved from the late 19th to early and late 20 th century.  to leave this out is a mistake.  there are many beautiful and neo-romantic works that will teach you about where harmony left off in the late 1900's.  also, pick a few composers before or around the same time as bach.

poulenc actually went back to palestrina and the early gregorian chant music for some inspiration.  not exactly tonal all the time - but having a tonal center (by repeating the notes enough times).  i find it very interesting to understand how history repeats itself but varies.

ps also, a gap for me was LISTENING to enough music.  i was astounded at the cd collection of my last piano teacher.  you don't have to own them all.  just go to the music library and listen every weekend.  it teaches you a lot.  reading record/cd covers and just chilling. 

also, for a person like yourself - i hope you do some arranging.  i do think you are a very creative sort.

[desordre]

 Dear Pianistimo:
 I understand your concern, but there is a reason to my choices: I think I'm OK at the musical side of this process. As a guitar student, then player and teacher (as well as my previous piano life), I listened and knew a great number of composers and styles. The question to me today is how to push my piano level to the same level of the rest. However, you said something that made me think: although I know these composers (Field, Scriabin, Barber, etc), maybe it would be a great idea to know them through an experience with their piano literature, i.e., playing their music. The great question to me is time: I divide myself between my job as an undergraduate teacher and as a quasi-amateur-pianist , so I don't have all the time I want.
 Again, you make me consider some changes, and that's what I want to ask you: do you suggest any substitution in the list above? Occurs me changing some Chopin for Field or Schumann, or Debussy for Scriabin or Rachmaninov, for instance. About your suggestion to make each group in a semester...well, thanks for considering me able to do it, but I really think I could not. I really don't imagine myself playing part 3 right in the next year. Maybe I really should consider to add some other composers to the list. What do you think? Any particular works in mind?

(...)
also, for a person like yourself - i hope you do some arranging.  i do think you are a very creative sort.

This creative side is suffering from my lack of time. I actually want to invest in the future in this, writing and arranging. It's indeed a fabulous way to improve one expressiveness and understanding. In my undergraduate I composed several short works to Harmony and Counterpoint classes, and it was fabulous. Unfortunately, since then I never resumed composing or doing something in that way. I don't think I will be a composer for real, but it is an amazing thing to do. Perhaps in the near future...

 Thanks again. Best wishes!

[desordre]

 Hello there!
 I promise that's the only time I'm doing that (bringing up my own topic), but anyone else has any comments?
 Thanks in advance!

[pianowelsh]

I have found one of the best ways to improve you playing level in sa relatively short space of time is actually to play variation type structures and groups of pieces...I would recommend..Chopin and Scriabin preludes! as they are VERY concentrated but some have very demanding technical challenges...they can also be learned relatively quickly which is gratifying...maybe some etudes would be good too - a start could be Scriabin op2/1 and also the 3 nouvelle etudes of Chopin.  Works like the 32 variations in Cmin by Beethoven and Mendelssohns varitaions serieuses are good for developing the technique too - you can playa group of 3/4 variations at a time and you are aquiring different types of technique as you do so.

[desordre]

 Dear Welsh:
 Thanks for your answer. Indeed, I think your suggestion is great, and something I was missing. By the way, studying a variation by Beethoven, for instance, is far more interesting than a dull study about the same technique issue.
 Best wishes!

[pianowelsh]

There are good etudes too, and etudes can stand alone in a programme so if you must learn something quickly then etudes are very helpfull.  it is much less desireable to programme variations 1-5 of XXXX than etude no 5 by XXXX I suggest a balanced diet of the two to really improove your playing AND performing experience.  If you wanted something along variation lines in a 20th C russian context (seems to be missing from your list) try Prokofiev's vision fugative - its great music (20 tiny miniatures) some are straightforward..some are particularly challenging) They also programme well and are very often played in groups of 5 at a time in concerts. Several virtuosos have been known to offer selcections for encores too.