Beethoven's last 3 sonatas

[eldrida]

Hi, I am doing thesis about Beethoven's last 3 sonatas, what do  you think the most important aspect when performing these 3 sonatas? tempo? emotion? or others?

I will be much appreciated if you can give some suggestions. 

[webern78]

An understanding of counterpoint, syncopation and color. Don't wallow over the emotional content of the music. Lot's of people seem to be playing those sonatas as if they were on their last dying breath, ignoring the tempo markings (second movement of opus 111 is marked 'arietta', breezy, but most people play it as if it was a funeral march).

[pianowolfi]

And understanding of counterpoint, syncopation and color. Don't wallow over the emotional content of the music. Lot's of people seem to be playing those sonatas as if they were on their last dying breath, ignoring the tempo markings (second movement of opus 111 is marked 'arietta', breezy, but most people play it as if it was a funeral march).

Arietta does NOT mean breezy! Arietta is a "little" Aria. And the other part of the performance mark says "Adagio molto semplice e cantabile" (Slow, very simple and singable)

[webern78]

Arietta does NOT mean breezy! Arietta is a "little" Aria.

In term of performance, it does. As a tempo marking aria in itself already implies stilted motion, since 'aria' is Italian for air. In performance then a diminution of a tempo marking can only imply a shortening of all it's temporal values. In that sense 'allegretto' is a slower, but more quirky allegro, just to make an example (softer impetus but shorter temporal values)

And the other part of the performance mark says "Adagio molto semplice e cantabile" (Slow, very simple and singable)

Yes but the main idea is to convey a sense of flowing. Most pianist think they can 'enhance' the emotional content by wallowing on it's melodic qualities, focusing on the detail while forgetting the whole. This is a mistake, particularly with Beethoven, who up until the very end was very much a classicist.

Listen to Edwin Fischer's performance of this work, and you'll know what i mean...

[pianowolfi]

I will listen to Fischer. Anyway I don't agree with your claim that Arietta or Aria is a tempo marking. Aria is a "song" mainly in opera. Of course it can mean air too but the common meaning is Aria, song. That can be written or sung in many different tempos, it depends of the composer. The tempo marking is "Adagio" after all. (btw you can listen to my interpretation in the audition room if you like. I thought I was at the slow side of the spectrum but someone found it even too fast )

But we are a bit off topic as I realize I agree with webern 78 about the importance of counterpoint, syncopation and colour. And also in the idea of "flowing" and not forgetting the whole.

[webern78]

Well, in operatic terms an 'arietta' can only be a small or short aria, and this movement is anything but short. I think what Beethoven wants is to give the piece a certain pace, which is reinforced by the 'cantabile' (singable) marking.

BTW, i'm not advocating performers should play this allegro. It IS an adagio after all, just a relatively swift and singable one. Adagio in itself is an elastic term in that in can mean anything from slow (lento is a more literal translation for this) to soft or just carefully paced. An adagio can usually be played relatively fast (almost andante) as long as the dynamic is kept suppressed. In short, the 'soft' and 'careful' part takes precedence over the speed of the marking, which is flexible.

[tds]

Hi, I am doing thesis about Beethoven's last 3 sonatas

whoa.. what a choice! i know i cant help you. and i am glad i am not doing anything of that sort.

have you played all of them? i hope you have, coz i wouldn't want to read a presentation of beethoven last three sonatas by someone who's never learnt them himself.

good luck,

tds

[eldrida]

Thanks everyone, if we don't think of them as typical straight forward classical sonatas but rather as works already more romantic in expression although composed by a person who lived during the times when music was supposed to be simple and elegant, make more sense?

[cygnusdei]

Mitsuko Uchida wrote her own notes/essay for her CD of these works. I don't have this CD, but from what I read she observes some interesting motivic links between the three sonatas.

[ramseytheii]

In term of performance, it does. As a tempo marking aria in itself already implies stilted motion, since 'aria' is Italian for air. In performance then a diminution of a tempo marking can only imply a shortening of all it's temporal values. In that sense 'allegretto' is a slower, but more quirky allegro, just to make an example (softer impetus but shorter temporal values)

Yes but the main idea is to convey a sense of flowing. Most pianist think they can 'enhance' the emotional content by wallowing on it's melodic qualities, focusing on the detail while forgetting the whole. This is a mistake, particularly with Beethoven, who up until the very end was very much a classicist.

Listen to Edwin Fischer's performance of this work, and you'll know what i mean...

Honestly I can't say whether your analysis is brilliant or hilarious.  I think it is al ittle bit of both.  ultimately thjis is a translation problem: "Aria" might translate in Babelfish to "Air," but I think we can all congratulate ourselves on knowing that the Italians, and the opera composers didn't procede music with the word "Air" to indicate one of the four elements.  After all, in Italy, piano is used to mean a floor of a building, ie 2nd piano.  Does that mean Scarlatti's 100th piano sonata was intended to be played on the 100th floor?  I sense a new opportunity for the historically informed.

I also love that you automatically connect the word "air" with "stilted."  Since every aria ever written is in a stilted tempo you are obviously right!

Walter Ramsey
 

[webern78]

Honestly I can't say whether your analysis is brilliant or hilarious.  I think it is al ittle bit of both.  ultimately thjis is a translation problem: "Aria" might translate in Babelfish to "Air," but I think we can all congratulate ourselves on knowing that the Italians, and the opera composers didn't procede music with the word "Air" to indicate one of the four elements.  After all, in Italy, piano is used to mean a floor of a building, ie 2nd piano.  Does that mean Scarlatti's 100th piano sonata was intended to be played on the 100th floor?  I sense a new opportunity for the historically informed.

I don't think it's a translation problem as much as a classic example on how terms change over time. Originally the term 'sonata' simply meant something that was played over an instrument rather then sung (cantata). It had nothing to do with the sense we attach to it today. Likewise for Aria. Even in the Baroque era the term aria sometimes simply meant a melody (think of Bach's 'air' in g). I think it's the latter meaning that Beethoven wanted to convey, which of course is what the italians intended when they coined the term to describe the operatic aria. I think at the time it was meant to create a division between the new monodic singing style (based on a melody, or tune, once again, 'air') as opposed to the then more conventional polyphonic forms, like the madrigal.

And for the record, 'piano' in italian also means 'soft' (it's a matter of fact the sense of the word in this context is very similar to adagio). This is the opposite of 'forte' (which means strong), hence, pianoforte (or fortepiano, as it is known in english), to convey the idea of something which can be played softly and strongly (like a piano). This has nothing to do with Scarlatti, btw. He never used the word 'piano sonata' to describe his compositions.

Ho, and for the 'babelfish' comment, i'll have you know that i am Italian, which is probably why i get a little creative in my extrapolation of those musical terms... 

[ramseytheii]

Well I have been exposed again for sloppiness.  At least I got you to confess your interpretation of "Aria" as "stilted air," and "Arietta" as "breezy air," was fanciful.

Walter Ramsey

I don't think it's a translation problem as much as a classic example on how terms change over time. Originally the term 'sonata' simply meant something that was played over an instrument rather then sung (cantata). It had nothing to do with the sense we attach to it today. Likewise for Aria. Even in the Baroque era the term aria sometimes simply meant a melody (think of Bach's 'air' in g). I think it's the latter meaning that Beethoven wanted to convey, which of course is what the italians intended when they coined the term to describe the operatic aria. I think at the time it was meant to create a division between the new monodic singing style (based on a melody, or tune, once again, 'air') as opposed to the then more conventional polyphonic forms, like the madrigal.

And for the record, 'piano' in italian also means 'soft' (it's a matter of fact the sense of the word in this context is very similar to adagio). This is the opposite of 'forte' (which means strong), hence, pianoforte (or fortepiano, as it is known in english), to convey the idea of something which can be played softly and strongly (like a piano). This has nothing to do with Scarlatti, btw. He never used the word 'piano sonata' to describe his compositions.

Ho, and for the 'babelfish' comment, i'll have you know that i am Italian, which is probably why i get a little creative in my extrapolation of those musical terms... 

[pianistimo]

what i notice immediately about beethoven's last sonatas - are his untypical use of rhythms and form.  really mixed up.  for instance:  the op 109 you have in the opening measures a scale pattern that is alternately the first and then last note of each pair sixteenth/dotted eighth figuring.  same with the lh excepting it is two sixteenth-notes -  but they alternate the notes that are scalular - going down. 

this is just creative genius.  he can't help but just become more and  more ingenious.  also, what i think is unusual is that the whole time he keeps holding out the first note (giving it importance) - so it is a very MODERN step to just not care so much about always giving the melody precedence.  it is almost as if he is melding melody, rhythm, and form together like glue.

you want to know what i really think?  i think beethoven skipped over the romantic era and went right towards the juglar of the modern in some of the ways that he composed the last three sonatas.

[kriskicksass]

What I consider most important about the last three sonatas is best said by Charles Rosen in his guide to the sonatas, "Beethoven knew how to strip naked the simplest elements of tonality in order to release their full power." When everyone around him was moving towards chromaticism and homophonic textures, Beethoven's music was becoming more diatonic and contrapuntal. And yet, his music is clearly superior to his contemporaries'. That is the mark of his genius.

[webern78]

Well I have been exposed again for sloppiness.  At least I got you to confess your interpretation of "Aria" as "stilted air," and "Arietta" as "breezy air," was fanciful.

Walter Ramsey

Well, to be frank i think the 'silted air' comment was a little out there. Sometimes i try to convey certain things but since english is my second language i often play it by 'ear', meaning i use words that 'sound' good when i say them but then i realize my instincts were mistaken.

Stilted isn't really the idea i wanted to express. The main point is that from my perspective 'arietta' implies a little more dynamicism then air. That's all... 

[webern78]

What I consider most important about the last three sonatas is best said by Charles Rosen in his guide to the sonatas, "Beethoven knew how to strip naked the simplest elements of tonality in order to release their full power." When everyone around him was moving towards chromaticism and homophonic textures, Beethoven's music was becoming more diatonic and contrapuntal. And yet, his music is clearly superior to his contemporaries'. That is the mark of his genius.

Nicely said.

[ramseytheii]

What I consider most important about the last three sonatas is best said by Charles Rosen in his guide to the sonatas, "Beethoven knew how to strip naked the simplest elements of tonality in order to release their full power." When everyone around him was moving towards chromaticism and homophonic textures, Beethoven's music was becoming more diatonic and contrapuntal. And yet, his music is clearly superior to his contemporaries'. That is the mark of his genius.

Even more than that, I think Charles Rosen meant that Beethoven knew how to use the basic elements to their most elemental.  The parts of the Classical tonal system we would most take for granted, are elevated onto a totally different plane in these sonatas.

For example: in the first movement of op.109, the two principal themes of the movement are heard side by side within seconds.  The first theme is a brisk four part chorale, broken up into individual components.  It's in 2 beats per bar, is a diatonic sequence and is classicaly phrased.  The a# in the last beat before the tempo change suggests that the next theme will be in the dominant, B major, but of course it doesn't happen.  Instead the tempo changes drastically, the beat changes to 3 per bar, though you can barely feel it, and the second theme is chromatic, and irregularly phrased.  It is the entire Classical contrast between diatonic and chromatic expressed literally within seconds.

Take another example, the 1st mvmt of op.110, which for me is about the contrast between major and minor.  You will find no minor chords except in the dark development section, and a single f-minor chord in a sequence towards the end, and that f-minor chord is still felt as significant.  Major and minor contrast is just one of the most basic elements of that tonal system, and Beethoven isolated it and used it in a totally unique way.

Another example of major-minor used originally: the second movement of op.109 is in e minor, the tonic minor, rather than a more standard c# minor. the relative minor (although he did this in op.90 [opposite: 1st mvmt minor, 2nd major] but to less dramatic effect).  Combined with the attacca between the movements, it creates the impression of shattering the 1st mvmt's atmosphere, rather then creating a new atmosphere in some other key.  Then, he automatically achieves continuity with the last movement, even though there's a double bar at the end of the second, because there is a transformation back to E major, rather then just a conventional pause.

There's another element he exposed and enhanced: the very notion of a 3 movement sonata.  Even in op.10 no.3, D major, he was playing with thematic material stretching over all the sonata's movements, but by this time of op109, the sonatas are connected in more ways, such as that example.

There are so many angles in which to view these sonatas, that you are sure to be rewarded no matter which angle you choose.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

dear ramseytheii,  you make a good point for me in terms of beethoven's use of some contemporary (for his time) use of harmony and motives.  i think there IS chromaticism and sly use of rhythm (moving as you said from two beats to three in a very short amount of time - and also introducing two separate themes in quick succession).

do you every wonder if beethoven was the first to introduce the common beginner piano duo 'heart and soul' with this opening?  (by taking every second beat- and chording).

i think beethoven was actually moving as much as he could in the developments away from tonality - but always somehow brought it back.  i see these last sonatas as his deaf period and attempting to explain to his close friends how it feels to be 'veiled.'  to not hear everything.  to need two and three notes to attempt to feel some vibrations.  and to be able to play with MUCH more chromaticism.  look at bar 6 - as he's already brought in an A# - by measure 10 he is able to add in a B# as he slyly moves immediately from 'a' minor to C# major at measure 11.

admittedly he  likes minor thirds a lot - but the opening brings out his willingness to experiment with fourths and augmented fourths in measure 6.  also, the 'tempo I' section on the next page is a WILD chromatic variation of the first theme.  you can't really hear E major in there consistently until the fifth line.

you're right, ramseytheii, about all these contrasts (chromatic / in key) etc.

[pianistimo]

for those that see beethoven as more of a romantic - there is also a good chapter on him in 'music in the romantic era' by einstein entitled 'the forms and the content' (pp65-72)

an excerpt:

'like every new period in the history of art, the romantic era in music altered its inherited forms and created new ones.  in the field of instrumental music, it's greatest heritage was the sonata form, which had received its most powerful expression of universal appeal in beethoven's symphonies.  the fate of the romantic movement was sealed by the greatness of this heritage. 

with haydn, mozart, and beethoven, the symphony had been a fully realized form.  haydn had created it, by slow toil and after many experiments, until at last the four-movement structure in its several parts, contrasting and yet brought together into a unity of the highest order, was well established.  the so-called 'sonata form,' which haydn used for the first movements of his symphonies, was also a favorite of his for last movements.  he was almost soley responsible for developing this form:  he was the first one to give it meaning.  with him, no one development sections is like another, for each one has been developed according tot he special character of the themes.'

[pianistimo]

' the romantics, however, paid more attention to beethoven than they did to haydn and mozart, whom they were rather inclined to look back upon with a certain reverant tolerance.  with beethoven, the symphony achieved for the first time its full, monumental stature, as the call to the individual and the mass, to the individual in the mass, an appeal of magnificent pathos, magnificent humor.  its forms were mightily extended without being exaggerated in the way that makes us dislike some of the architectural works of the baroque  (?  i kind of wonder at that statement - when comparing the architecture of the last three sonatas - but no matter!)

'there are no lengths - heavenly or otherwise - in beethoven, because he took over no forms; instead he created them anew.  beethoven had his characteristic formulae, but they were never empty husks, and he never repeated himself.  the romantics were of the opinion that in his last works - in the piano sonatas from op. 101 to op. 111, and especially in the last quartets - he had 'burst form assunder'; and from this illustrious model they developed the idea that it was permissable or justifiable that they themselves should deal as freely as possible with form.  as a matter of fact, there is not - even in these last works of beethoven's - a single movement, a single measure, that does not rest on the strictest, immanent musical logic, and that even in the most minute detail would call for extra-musical justification.'

(this logical aspect is the one that i hold onto when explaining beethoven in modern terms).  if he was a 'romantic' - he was a careful one.  careful to make sure reason and thought was behind the romantic feelings.  imo, he was so fully integrated into the system - that you could work backwards with him as well as forwards (in music history- and tonality).

[pianistimo]

to further the romantic image of beethoven - one could read wagners 'a pilgrimage to beethoven' (1840) - as beethoven became this 'myth' of superhuman.  'not one of beethoven's works ends with a psychic dissonance; and even the tragic and titanic works - quite apart from the many works that are plainly full of energy and joy and that the romantics liked to over look - express a faith in humanity and in God.  least of all did the romantics think of beethoven's humor, either low or sublime: (an example of his low humor would be the finale of the B-flat major trio op 97, and example of the sublime would be the finale of the F-major string quartet op 135); for this humor did not fit into the portrait of beethoven as the musician of lofty heights.  thirty years after writing his beethoven story, wagner in his centennial study of 1870 exalted beethoven to a veritable saint....'

[pianistimo]

'in actuality, beethoven's music did have enough explosive force in it to open up the way for the romantic era and to make that way easier.  the strongest aspect of this force was beethoven's new passion, which found its clearest expression in his dynamics, in the sharp alteration of contrast in particular, and in the accessions of power in general:  the crescendi and decrescendi, upon which - as in the scherzo and finale of the fifth symphony - a magnificent, emancipating explosion could ensue.  in conjunction with this accession of power, there was also an enlargement and an ostensible freedom in the manipulation of form, which the romantics eagerly put to their own uses.  but this freedom was only ostensible; for even when beethoven wrote sonatas quasi una fantasia, even when he seemed to abandon entirely the usual scheme of the sonata form, as in the 'last' piano sonatas or the 'last' string quartets from op 127 on, there was no break in the unity and completeness of the whole.  the romantics, however, overlooked the inner necessity, the cosmic order, the taming of the chaotic in beethoven's work; they saw only the freedom, the door thrown wide.  the one who went the farthest in his interpretation of this freedom, was, again, wagner, who declared that beethoven had burst form itself assunder in the symphonic field with his ninth symphony, through a desire that the last word on the subject of the symphony be said, and that now a new realm was having its beginning:  neither cantata nor choral symphony, but - of course - the symphonically conceived opera.'

[pianistimo]

my brain is actually working in two directions today (surprise surprise) - and i've been also thinking about the pianos that beethoven played on.  i have a book here about the erard piano and pleyel and whatever else he played on.  it is interesting to find out the capabilities of these instruments and how beethoven  used them to advantage.

but, back to einstein:

pp 83 - goes on to express beethoven as a tone-poet.  'he had himself assisted in the new, romantic interpretation of his works by ending the ninth symphony with schillers 'ode to joy'; for, if this fourth movement, as it were, burst into an explaination, perhaps the previous movements must also have some 'significance.'  in one of his sonatas he had assigned to the movements the specific meanings of 'farewell- absence-homecoming .'  by way of explaination of the piano sonata op 90, he had suggested 'strife between head and heart - conversation with the beloved.';  for op 101 - 'dreamy mood - summons to act - return to dreamy mood - the deed.'  (con't)

[pianistimo]

'another pupil of beethoven's, carl czerny, of whom one would hardly expect it, wrote in his method for the piano (1847) 'each of his compositions expresses some one particular, firmly captured mood or view, to which even in the most minute touches it remains true.  the melody, the musical thought predominates throughout; all passages and agitated figures are always but means to an end....'

[ramseytheii]

dear ramseytheii,  you make a good point for me in terms of beethoven's use of some contemporary (for his time) use of harmony and motives.  i think there IS chromaticism and sly use of rhythm (moving as you said from two beats to three in a very short amount of time - and also introducing two separate themes in quick succession).

do you every wonder if beethoven was the first to introduce the common beginner piano duo 'heart and soul' with this opening?  (by taking every second beat- and chording).

i think beethoven was actually moving as much as he could in the developments away from tonality - but always somehow brought it back.  i see these last sonatas as his deaf period and attempting to explain to his close friends how it feels to be 'veiled.'  to not hear everything.  to need two and three notes to attempt to feel some vibrations.  and to be able to play with MUCH more chromaticism.  look at bar 6 - as he's already brought in an A# - by measure 10 he is able to add in a B# as he slyly moves immediately from 'a' minor to C# major at measure 11.

admittedly he  likes minor thirds a lot - but the opening brings out his willingness to experiment with fourths and augmented fourths in measure 6.  also, the 'tempo I' section on the next page is a WILD chromatic variation of the first theme.  you can't really hear E major in there consistently until the fifth line.

you're right, ramseytheii, about all these contrasts (chromatic / in key) etc.

Did you seriously just post like 8 times ina row on this one?!

I think this sonata movement can be seen in even a clearer light.  From the aspect I mentoined, it's about the polarities betwen chromaticism and diatonicism.  The A-# you refer to doesn't count as chromatic, because it is typical in a Classical sonata for the tonic to modulate to the dominant for the escond theme, and that is the convention he's following.  The A-# is the leading tone to B major, it's not at all unusual.  What is unusual is the vastly undermind sense of key in the adagio that follows, and the agitated, C.P.E. Bach-like chromaticism and diminished sevenths, of which you find nothing in the opening phrases.  The A-# is not special in itself, only that its normal function, typical modulation, is subverted.

And for the Tempo I section: also, this is not chromatic, this is a modulation through the circle of fifths.  it is the most diatonic music you can imagine, using the most cliched resources.  Why then does it sound so amazing?  I dont know, exactly, neither did Leonard Bernstein, but look at how the diatonic music of this movement pushes ahead, while the chromatic lingers, goes nowhere, or at least is always changing direction.  They both serve different dramatic purposes, lending even more credence to the idea that he polarized them in ths sonata.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

i beg to disagree.  i think beethoven is doing the same to both the tempo I AND the adagio.  he is expanding horizons for both.  but, i agree with what you said at the beginning - moving to a dominant key.  the way in which he does this is unusual, though - because as soon as you think he's in B - he tricks you and adds in a B# in measure 10 - making a diminished 7th chord on A.  it's really mysterious and misleading until you say 'oh, i see - on measure 11 - where he moves into measure 11 fully in B WITHOUT HAVING CHANGED THE KEY SIGNATURE.

in terms of cliche'd use of harmonies in the tempo I - i would say at measure 18 beethoven breaks the rule by using the B# again.   and, at measure 21 - the B natural.  he is clearly doing a mystery move.

the clincher to me is totally diminished chord (not major/not minor) on beat two of measure 18.  beethoven used to be so careful about using these - now he is unsparing.

[pianistimo]

ps  ramseytheii, i'm having a friendy argument, btw, because i think you are right on in most observations and my bold print is nothing but my own interpretation and how i see it.  really - the fantastic thing about beethoven is that you can interpret it many ways.

here's some stuff about beethoven and his piano from chapter 14 of John Gillespie's 'Five Centuries of Keyboard Music' - page177

'one facet of his creative genius finds expression as vital energy in his music while another reveals itself in his rhythms.  beethoven's themes are clothed in rhythms that pulsate through an entire work.  his skill in development, another aspect of his genius, is always closely related to his unique concept of rhythm.  he arrived at a simple theme after numerous preliminary sketches, but from this unadorned theme he created a world of experience.  his developments are never mechanical or coldly scholastic; they seem alive, spontaneous, and emotional.  his thoughts, never vapid, never mediocre, are translated into music that shows this intensity.  consequently, beethoven's melodies possess a transcendent individuality.  in them all human experience - love, heroism, sadness, ecstasy, joy - are lyrically delineated.'

on pp 188-190 you have detailed stuff about his third period and the last sonatas:

'the five sonatas belonging to the so-called third period uphold beethoven's later creative genius.  he died at the age of fifty-seven, but his last piano sonata was composed when he was fifty-two.  his confident spirit and artistic integrity, which made possible the tumultuous, passionate works of the second period, stayed with him to the end of his life.  when his everyday existence turned into disorder, when he shunned his friends, when his health failed, still inner power and conviction sustained him.  this enabled him to rise above the daily vicissitudes, and he went on to create nobler keyboard sonatas than ever before.'

(con't)

[pianistimo]

'during this final period he subjected sonata form to the extraordinary fantasy of his mature musicianship.  of the five sonatas, one has two movements, three contain three movements, and one has four movements; but they all show an exceptional interest in developmental techniques.  individual movements are sometimes interrupted by foreign episodes, resulting in a totally new manner of expression; he often uses the fugue and dramatic recitative for these passages.  polyphonic writing becomes more freqent and more complex, harmonic concepts more daring.  several of these final sonatas challenge the performer with tremendous difficulties, the consequence of a creative style that sometimes seems to transcend the piano's limitations.  at the same time, beethoven's preoccupation with relationship of themes persisted   -affirming itself with subtle force.'

'sonata op 101 in A major, written in 1816, was dedicated to baroness dorthea ertmann, one of beethoven's pupils and a distinguished pianist.  while the preceding opus 90 in many ways deferred to the past, this A major sonata so completely disregards the standard form that it almost seems a work of fantasy - fantasy in the best sense of the word.  the first movement is probably the shortest of its kind every written by beethoven; it is just over two pages.  basic sections of the typical first-movement form are present in essence, although the second theme is missing.  the usual scherzo gives way to a structure, vivace alla marcia, in 4/4 meter with rhythmic details like those of the later robert schumann.  beethoven introduces a canon in the trio or middle section of this movement.  and he uses a fugue in the development section of the final movement, creating a hybrid type, the first of its kind:  a sonata-allegro movement preceded by a slow introduction and containing a fugue in its development section.  this sonata is the creative product of a magnificent inspiration aided by a liberal approach to structure and content.'

[pianistimo]

p 190:

'the last three beethoven sonatas- op 109 in E major, opus 110 in A-flat major, and opus 111 in c minor - stand as his most intimate and moving introspective keyboard works.  he gives full vent to his artistic dictates on subjectivism, with no apparent concern about explicit formal matters.  the sonata op 109 in E major (1820) begins with a vivace am non troppo. as this section progresses, it reveals an attempt to reconcile two basically disparate ideas:  a vivace theme that alternates with an adagio passage.  the prestissimo is an interlude connecting the two outer movements; the finale is a theme and variations.  this is the first time beethoven used a theme and variations as a piano-sonata finale, and this lyrical theme, andante molto cantabile, ed espressivo, with its six rich variations, is certainly his finest contribution to the form, a permanent tribute to the man and his spirit.'

'sonata opus 110 in A-flat major (1821) is one of beethoven's most astonishingly expressive works.  it contains the ultimate essentials of his mature characteristics:  expansive developments; liberty in form; a transformation of the classical sonata framework by the introduction of the dramtic recitative and the fugue; and finally, a thematic similarity, or rather a genesis of themes from an initial theme.

from a structural point of view sonata opus 110 contains three movements:  a moderato cantabile, molto espressivo in sonata-allegro form but treated with considerable liberty; an allegro molto, which has a scherzo character (one theme was supposedly derived from a silesian folk song); and a finale divided into four sections which, under beethoven's control, form one harmonious whole.  these sections are:

1. adagio - recitative- and arioso :  a brief introduction of a lyric adagio; a dramatic recitative; then the arioso dolente, accompanied by heavy, thick chords in the bass.

2. an initial fugue - of tragic overtones.

3. an arioso symmetric with the first one.

4. finally, a second fuga whose subject comes from the inversion of the first.  beethoven has noted this poi a poi di nuevo vivente as though to emphasize the triumphal note on which the sonata achieves its superb conclusion.

[pianistimo]

p 191:

'opus 111 in C minor (1822) is the last of the thirty-two beethoven sonatas, and it is a perfect argument for the two-movement sonata.  the two movements are unrelated, yet they augment and complement each other in the manner that only beethoven's genius could project.  a brief introduction (maestoso) to the first movement leads by means of a series of modulations to the  allegro con brio ed appassionato.  this allegro is remarkable for the skillful way in which beethoven evolves the A-flat theme from the intial one in c minor.  the theme of the second movement, arietta, replies to the dramatic message of the allegro, thereby imparting a strong internal unity to the whole work.  this theme, to be played adagio molto semplice e cantabile, is simple in itself but underlined with manifest implications.  five variations follow; more appropriately, they might be called progressions or extensions.  unlike most variations these great patterned amplifications of the intial subject have no opposition, no attempt at diversity.  the theme's original spirit is prolonged, preserving the unity and at the same time transporting the listener to unimagined realms of sound.'

(end of quotes)

i have not played the last three sonatas - but have listened to them played singularly at various times by other pianists.  what impresses me about the last one is that a pianist would have to integrate everything and make it sound whole.  like it's meant to be.  that is not just 'performing.'  to me, that is 'contemplating' while performing.  or an 'out of body experience - whilst sitting at the piano.'

[pianistimo]

just for fun - i've been going thru the various chord progressions on the first page of the opus 109.  this is really unusal modulations here:  from B major in measure 11 to 'a' minor in measure 12.  then, D# major! in measure 13.  this is an augmented FOURTH modulation!  then BACK TO B major - which is a MAJOR SECOND modulation.  also, interesting is that when he does the scalular passage at the bottom - you expect him to end on the B.  but, what does he do?  completely unexpected (well, not for beethoven) and goes down to the A#.  he can now go wherever he chooses - but comes back up faithfully to the resolution at 'tempo I' fully on a B - but back in E major.  he's full of tricks.  and, it doesn't stop there - as soon as beethoven enters this tempo I - he is being mystical again - showing you that AGAIN - he can go pretty much wherever he wants  - but he WILLINGLY CHOOSES to come back again and again to the tonic.  it's as if it is a secret message to antonio brentano that no matter where or how far he goes - he is always connected to her in a heartfelt silk cord.

[pianistimo]

make that 'a dim' on measure 12. 

[ramseytheii]

O pianitisimo.  Once again your posts make me go, "huh?"  But I think this time I can fill in the blanks.  I think you should be more specific with the way you use words.  For instance, "modulation," doesn't mean one chord which is different then the previous chord.  It means a distinct change of key, the result of a progression, not the progression itself.

i beg to disagree.  i think beethoven is doing the same to both the tempo I AND the adagio.  he is expanding horizons for both. 

The first "huh?"  Disagree with what?  If yo uwant to say something totally general like, "he is expanding horizons" and use that to infer that two completely different sections rae "the same," then go ahead, but don't be surprised when I say, huh?  (#2).  The adagio is unstable and strange, and the Tempo I is much more conventional in harmony - although I'm remiss to use the word conventional, because it sounds disparaging, and that's not how I mean it.  I mean he is contrasting a pure Classical diatonic harmony, with a phantastical, chromatic, unstable thing.

but, i agree with what you said at the beginning - moving to a dominant key.  the way in which he does this is unusual, though - because as soon as you think he's in B - he tricks you and adds in a B# in measure 10 - making a diminished 7th chord on A.

First of all there's no B# in measure 10, I think you mean measure 9, you probably just counted the first beat as a full bar, but it's just half a bar.  Careful, pianitisimo! 

it's really mysterious and misleading until you say 'oh, i see - on measure 11 - where he moves into measure 11 fully in B WITHOUT HAVING CHANGED THE KEY SIGNATURE.

I gathe from your caps that that is somehow an amazing thing, but how often do Classical sonatas express music which is just modulated to  the DOMINANT by CHANGING KEY SIGNATURE?  NOT VERY OFTEN!

in terms of cliche'd use of harmonies in the tempo I - i would say at measure 18 beethoven breaks the rule by using the B# again.   and, at measure 21 - the B natural.  he is clearly doing a mystery move.

Huh? (#3)  You've got your measure numbers all wrong.  Are you referring to the B natural in m 22?  First of all, or I guess second of all, I am also remiss to use the word cliche, because I don't mean it in a bad way.  i only mean he takes a gesture, a cycle through the circle of fifths, which is conventional, and elevates it onto a plane where it sustains itself as an expressive vehicle, in other words, it exists for the sake of itself, it's been elevated.
Third of all, your harmonic analysis is incomplete because you are just focussing on single notes.  If you looked more carefully, you would realize how conventional this is: the B# is to lead us into c-# minor, the relative minor of teh tonic; the B natural is part of G-# minor, the relative minor of the dominant, and please don't bring up the f-double-#, which leads us into G-# minor, or the C-double-#, which leads us into the relative minor of the dominant of the dominant.  Recognize a pattern here?  The Circle of Fifths.

But I don't know why I typed all of this, because I am not even sur if you are arguing with me, or just typing something unrelated to what I was saying.  But there it is, I hope that helps someone.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

thanks for your help on the details, ramseytheii (i think i should call you walter - like alistair expects).  agreed on some - but don't you think that adding in all those A#'s was a bit of a statement after it reached an entire page.  i mean composer's don't typically give themselves that much work.  he was making a point.  that he could go ANYWHERE he wanted.  that he could do anything he wanted.  but, he willingly chooses to come back to the original key of E major at various points.  but, some of these points are unexpected points which then suddenly take dramatic shifts right and left - before you even get to the adagio.  you glossed over what i was saying - because i think that the first page shows exactly what beethoven intended for the  entire piece (not just the adagio).  he is - as you say - showing huge contrasts even on the first page.  it is not like - everything is rotating around the circle of fifths.

accepted about what you say in terms of modulation vs progression - but, hey  - in these latter sonatas - he very well could and does at times just go ahead and modulate to something quite unexpected.  you never really spoke about the progressions on the first page.  to alternate back and forth between a B# and a B natural seems ok for beethoven - but it completely changes chord structures on the first page - and he seems to do this at closer and closer intervals.  for instance between measure 17 and 18 you go from an A# (making in a B chord) to having a B#  in measure 18.  it doesn't seem that important at first.  but he's sly.  by measure 23 - we've added a diminished chord which is the most sly, imo.

[pianistimo]

if he wanted to be natural about this circle of fifths - is what i'm saying - he would have left the B natural in measure 18 and gone on from there.  this is also a 'diminished' point - where he can go any direction - but chooses to keep on this pattern.  he's saying - 'look, ma, no hands.'

you'll notice - it is right at this point that he stablizes the left hand by repeating the G.  this is another - unexpected - but helpful 'unpattern.'

[pianistimo]

something else that is an 'unpattern' is that the beginning and the tempo I are a sort of 'theme  and variations' that gets picked up on again (as mentioned by gillespie) on variaton II. 

this is something semi-unusual - to break up these and call them something else.  it's a really sly thing.  also - if you pull out all the second theme stuff and middle movement - and just put the theme and variations together from the first movement continuous to the fourth - they connect very well.  it's almost as if beethoven wrote them together - and then said - 'now, i will separate you.'

variation I of the last movement - seems like a middle movement, to me.

[pianistimo]

also, i think that the 'theme' of the last movement could actually be the theme for the 'variations' in totality.  what i mean is:

theme - gesangvoll, etc
Var I - vivace from first movement (ma non troppo)
Var II - tempo I from first movement
Var III - variation II from last movement
and so forth- until the end - (changing the numbers slightly - or just considering variation I and II from the first movement as joined).

[pianistimo]

something else that just occurred to me is that the second 'theme' (adagio expressivo i) of the first movement sounds more like a development.  and, if put together (adagio expressivo ii) - would finish the run and develop further at measure 58 connecting and continuing this developing 'mood.' 

i would start this sonata form (for the first movement) with actually 'variation I' from the last movement.  then, move into the development - as mentioned above.   the thing is - all of these are in 3/4 - which wasn't the typical ideal time signature for first sonata movement either.  hmm.  'unpattern.'

i have no idea if this is what beethoven did.  wrote a piece.  cut the pieces up.  rearranged them like a puzzle and then wrote connecting parts so it alls ounded 'whole.'

[pianistimo]

well - he learned from the best.  haydn.

[ramseytheii]

thanks for your help on the details, ramseytheii (i think i should call you walter - like alistair expects).  agreed on some - but don't you think that adding in all those A#'s was a bit of a statement after it reached an entire page.  i mean composer's don't typically give themselves that much work.  he was making a point.  that he could go ANYWHERE he wanted.  that he could do anything he wanted.  but, he willingly chooses to come back to the original key of E major at various points.  but, some of these points are unexpected points which then suddenly take dramatic shifts right and left - before you even get to the adagio.  you glossed over what i was saying - because i think that the first page shows exactly what beethoven intended for the  entire piece (not just the adagio).  he is - as you say - showing huge contrasts even on the first page.  it is not like - everything is rotating around the circle of fifths.

Before you get to the adagio, there's one note that he adds an accidental to, and that's an A, making it the leading tone of the dominant.  if your point is that that's a "dramatic shift," I just disagree with you one hundred percent.  The dramatic shift is the V/V, in a stable tempo, ending up in a vii diminished/iii (you said before the diminished chord was "on the a," but it's not, it's "on" the b#).  What did I gloss over?  There's a very normal preparation for a modulation in the opening bars, whch he interrupts in a dramatic way.  This is a description of the polarization of diatonic and chromatic harmony.

accepted about what you say in terms of modulation vs progression - but, hey  - in these latter sonatas - he very well could and does at times just go ahead and modulate to something quite unexpected.  you never really spoke about the progressions on the first page.  to alternate back and forth between a B# and a B natural seems ok for beethoven - but it completely changes chord structures on the first page - and he seems to do this at closer and closer intervals.  for instance between measure 17 and 18 you go from an A# (making in a B chord) to having a B#  in measure 18.  it doesn't seem that important at first.  but he's sly.  by measure 23 - we've added a diminished chord which is the most sly, imo.

I don't know what your first page is, but mine ends wth bar 13.  In 17 and 18 I don't see any A#'s, but if you are talkinga bout the A# from bar 16, then a b# in bar 17, you will see that those notes constitute the ascending melodic minor scale of C#.  Sorry what's so strange about that?  This is not wild and crazy, these are the leading tones to the relative minor.  You just cant seem to accept my point that one section is embedded in chromaticism, and the other in diatonicism.  Just because there are accidentals doesn't mean it is unstable and weird, in fact these accidentals are evidence of how diatonic the harmony is, since it is a plain circle of fifths progression, which you can't do without accidentals.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

if he wanted to be natural about this circle of fifths - is what i'm saying - he would have left the B natural in measure 18 and gone on from there.  this is also a 'diminished' point - where he can go any direction - but chooses to keep on this pattern.  he's saying - 'look, ma, no hands.'

you'll notice - it is right at this point that he stablizes the left hand by repeating the G.  this is another - unexpected - but helpful 'unpattern.'

I dont know what you mean by natural but I assume it's to try and say the "Tempo I" section is somehow bizarre and strange.  Why on earth would there be a B-natural in m.18, which is obviously in the key of c# minor?  THAT would be bizarre and strange.  You are losing the forest for the trees.  No LH is stablizied by a repeated G, anyways a G-sharp, but the harmony of c#-minor is being emphasized, the first in the circle of fifths which will follow.  What is so strange about this?  If you think I am degrading te passage in any way you are wrong.  Something doens't have to be strange to be worthwhile.  I am actually pointing out how a simple progression, used by thousands of other composers, is put to such amazing effect.

Walter ramsey

[ramseytheii]

something else that is an 'unpattern' is that the beginning and the tempo I are a sort of 'theme  and variations' that gets picked up on again (as mentioned by gillespie) on variaton II. 

this is something semi-unusual - to break up these and call them something else.  it's a really sly thing.  also - if you pull out all the second theme stuff and middle movement - and just put the theme and variations together from the first movement continuous to the fourth - they connect very well.  it's almost as if beethoven wrote them together - and then said - 'now, i will separate you.'

variation I of the last movement - seems like a middle movement, to me.

Its not a theme and variations, it's a development section.  If you want to play loose and easy with words, every development section ever written are is a set of "variations," but that's just being loose and easy. 

walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

I can't wait to hear your recording.  This reminds me of an interview with James Levine, who was talking about the avant-garde European opera productions, and how they have gotten out of control.  He said that these productions are thriving because people find them so "interesting."  Then he said, what if I took a Mozart opera, and switched the double bass with the violin, and the trumpet with the viola.  That would be "interesting," but actually JUST WRONG!

Walter Ramsey


Walter Ramsey

something else that just occurred to me is that the second 'theme' (adagio expressivo i) of the first movement sounds more like a development.  and, if put together (adagio expressivo ii) - would finish the run and develop further at measure 58 connecting and continuing this developing 'mood.' 

i would start this sonata form (for the first movement) with actually 'variation I' from the last movement.  then, move into the development - as mentioned above.   the thing is - all of these are in 3/4 - which wasn't the typical ideal time signature for first sonata movement either.  hmm.  'unpattern.'

i have no idea if this is what beethoven did.  wrote a piece.  cut the pieces up.  rearranged them like a puzzle and then wrote connecting parts so it alls ounded 'whole.'

[pianistimo]

of course it would be just wrong.  but, all i'm asking is 'could this be what beethoven did?'   mixing up things - as it were.  you have no imagination, ramseytheii, if you think otherwise.  i mean - this gillespie guy sees the similarities of the variations in the last movement with the first - and he's written a book with a chapter on these sonatas.

[jakev2.0]

[pianistimo]

here's some stuff about beethoven's pianos:

https://www.frugalfun.com/pianohistory.html

i will leave it to eldrida to see what is valuable amongst what we have discussed.  everyone has ideas about harmony and analysis - but when it comes down to it - you have to listen to the piece to get any idea of what 'flows.'  i'm sure beethoven rearranged things from time to time to get the 'flow' right - and i wouldn't be surprised if some things he majorly rearranged.  haydn did this too.  breaking form 'assunder' with his 'creation.'  none of the movements have a particular form that is classic.  there is something in each one that sets them apart as totally unique. 

ps i think i will post a version of my own sort of -tag it together and see what it sounds like.