Schumann, Träumerei

[ail]

Hi all,

I made last night my first experience at recording. This is the result. I have used a digital piano because I haven't got access to an accoustic. I made the recording by linking the Line-Out directly to the stereo entrance of my PC and used a free-ware program to convert to MP3. I hope the quality of the recording is Ok, I had to fiddle a lot with the volume so that I wouldn't lose quality on the louder parts, but I think the grave sounds are too soft and go unnoticed.

Anyway, I'm more interested in playing advice than technicalities. I'm mostly a self-taught piano player, I'm 30 years old, almost 31, and though I have learned to play as a kid, I stopped having classes when I was 9. I had lessons for seven months with a private teacher last year, and made an exam at the conservatory but I failed. The teacher that had accompanied me, though, said that he could help me no longer, and that paradoxically I was at a level that required a better teacher than him or a school... neither of which I can afford to pay, sadly :-(

I upload this piece here because it's one I can play more or less comfortably, though I have no idea of how to do a proper interpretation. I feel indeed that I'm too irregular in the tempo here, but I welcome any and all criticism that you can make. I do not hide that I will try to use what ever you tell me to evolve as a pianist. My aim is not grand, as I do not seek to play for large audiences, but I would like to play for friends. On the other hand, I have some personal ambitious goals, as some of the pieces I would like to play some day are presumably of the most difficult in the repertoire. But I'm willing to go by little steps, and if you can help me in that, I will be enormously grateful to you.

Thank you for your patience and eventual support.

Alex Miranda

[pianistimo]

you have a lot of heart!  get your metronome out - and even it out.  i have to do this with some of my playing, too.  i don't understand why the teachers won't work with you.  even if a person is 'slow' - it doesn't mean they won't get it.  you  just give them more time.  in your case - it could be a very very good outcome!  you have lots of heart and strong hands and lovely melodic line.

as was explained to me - think like you are pulling a kite.  you don't want it to stop mid-melody - so you even it out as though it is sailing on the wind and dips and rises evenly.  swirling - but never dramatically dropping and starting again.  to do this really smoothly - make the left hand exactly ON the beat for now.  then - fudge with the rh a little .  not too much.

[pianowolfi]

Well you are very musical and there is no reason to doubt that you CAN reach a lot of what you dream of. As you say there are certain liberties you take with the rhythm I would correct as a teacher. On the other hand, listen to Horowitz' Moscow concert, he takes liberties as well I think I hope you will find a teacher who is ready for you! 

[Mozartian]

whoa whoa whoa, get a metronome out! The liberties you take with the rhythm go far beyond a use of rubato, you're actually changing the rhythm and you just can't do that. I know how tempting it can be to change it- I struggle with rhythm and a consistent tempo myself quite frequently- but you absolutely have to make sure that you have it right. Rhythm is the foundation of music, and maintaining a correct rhythm is really critical to a solid performance of anything.

Otherwise, you clearly have great feeling for the piece, and I'm sure that once you fix the rhythm it'll be a really great performance. Do you plan to play the rest of Kinderscenen? It's really a great set.

Looking forward to hearing more from you!

[ail]

Hi there,

after the comments I had in this and other threads, I began paying much more attention to the tempo and practicing with the metronome and counting aloud.
I still don't think I should play by the metronome, but it gave me a better idea of how to play music. So, these are my first experiences with that new mindset. I humbly ask you to tell me if I have improved or not, and what should I correct next. I put two recordings of the same piece that have some differences, hoping that you tell me which one should I prefer or, if that's the case, what parts should I pick from each one as better.

Thank you all in advance.

Alexandre

[pianistimo]

i'd work it fully with the metronome to get the 'kinks' out and then bring back only a slight bit of rubato.  the rhythms are fully changed in a few places, as mozartian said, and you don't want to be giving a quarter to the upbeat start of the main melodic phrase -when it only calls for an eighth.  also, some of the notes have too much of a pause in front of them.

i'd strive for a much faster speed.  you may not want to play 100 per quarter - but that is what is suggested on that particular sheet.  even if you play 80 - evenly - it will sound like you are not imputing more to this piece than is there.  i feel this piece is like looking out the window and taking in everything in the view.  you move from grass/flowers to birds and trees and sky - but you don't jerk your head everytime you look at something new. you just move your eyes.  that is the same way with this piece.  less jerky and more flowing. 

ps i still think you will play this gorgeously because you have very strong heart and hands.

[philippa]

I'm learning this It's a really nice piece. I like the way you play it- it's really clear. Obviously everyone has commented on the timing, so I'll ignore that. It's improved in the 2nd recording anyway.

I'll be happy if I can play it like this when I'm done learning it.

[ail]

Thank you all. I'm really making an effort to put the tempi right, it's just that the music tends to sound dry when I play it along with the metronome. But at least I've adjusted to playing with the tick-tack much better than I thought at first, and I'm training several pieces like that now.

Anyway, thank you for the input.
At any rate, pianistimo, I have to disagree with you in relation to speed. I really don't like it fast, nor faster than this. I once heard Jorge Moyano playing it and I think he played even slower.

On another note, this whole 'playing with or without metronome' question is rather confusing to me. My digital piano has 50 pieces recorded (this one included) and I sometimes listen to them with the metronome on, that is, a track for the metronome that corresponds exactly to the recorded piece. And in all of them, or at least most of them, I do notice several irregular tempi. I guess this is where I take my irregularity from, always trying to 'make it sound like in the recordings'. Guess that must not be very good, is it?

Also, let me ask another thing please, pianistimo. Why do you say I have strong hands? How do you notice that?

Thank you.

Alexandre

Alex

[pianowolfi]

I would try to play the chord on the second count in the first measure softer. The melody should dominate and not be disturbed but supported by this chord. The Arpeggio notes (grace notes) in the second bar should come after the eighth note f in the right hand. same in m. 6. in my book there should always be a difference between voices. The middle voices are often too loud in relation to the melody. This is a polyphonic composition in homophonic style. The middle voices ARE important. But there should be different layers. All in all I wish that you step by step trust yourself and your musical feeling better and take the recordings more as a non committing suggestion. The liberties are okay now, there actually are a lot of interpretations around that are taking similar liberties (Again I mention Horowitz here). Good progress!

[pianistimo]

dear alexandre,

you just have a naturally strong sound to your hands and even strength for both hands.  usually pianists have a strong rh and when they play softly with the lh - it lacks confidence.  you have the confidence.  and, i think it shows a great deal of musicianship.  just that - sometimes what we personally 'like' to hear - isn't the temperamental heart of our audience.  too much love and passion (and slow tempo) to sparse chords and one line melody can be - well - boring.  this is just my opinion.  there may be other fans cheering in the wings.

as i see it - opus10#2 is somewhat right excepting that i think fast pieces need to be slowed down slightly - and slower pieces not played at a snails pace.  you know - like a gust of wind is blowing it and not that you're waiting for tinder to ignite - but that you have the thing in flames by the mid-section. 

now, trameri means 'dreaming' - correct.  if i was dreaming to this tempo - i'd be basically watching clouds that were static.  like glued to the sky.  i would pluck on and stick it back on the sky again at a different location. 
 
don't get mad at me - but i think it's good you're practicing with the metronome.  i'd like to hear those clouds moving at 110 mph - but only moving slowly from the ground perspective.  evenly.  changing shapes as they go.  as i hear it - schumann could have well written this as a song with actual words.  i would make up some and sing with the melody line only taking as much 'breath' as you literally take when singing. 

[renka]

I agree with pianowolfi.  This is a very important comment that any pianist should listen.  There is a difference between second voices and melody and there should be different layers, but its take time and your are doing great, so go ahead and make your dream come true. You have the feelings and the heart.  God Bless you.

[justinsanner]

Hello Alex,

I just wanted to say that where you are at this point in your work on Träumerei is quite promising.

You wrote:

QUOTE: I feel indeed that I'm too irregular in the tempo here...END QUOTE


Yes, you just need to even it out some so it's not jerky.

Someone sent me an e-mail after hearing your performance on here because of your tempo. They had seen my video performance of Träumerei where I play the piece closer to the suggested metronome marking (Editions: G. Henle Verlag Urtext: M.M.  a quarter note = 100.)  Most pianists don't play the piece according to that metronome marking, at least from my experience. They play the piece much (much) slower usually, and some people seem to prefer the slower tempo, in part, I think because that's the only way they've ever heard the piece played. I don't know where the slower tempo comes from. Some people have speculated on that.  Anyway, I was pleased to hear that your tempo in places is indeed closer to the suggested metronome marking in the score.

Here's the link to my video links page on my website, if you would like to see my video of Träumerei:

https://www.justinsanner.com/


Peace,

Justin

[aewanko]

hey there! just listened to it and your first recording wasn't bad at all. i'll try to listen to your other recordings then i'll comment again

[gyzzzmo]

I think the best is if you firstly get the rhythmics figured out. This is indeed a 'freely' playable piece, but you're overdoing it ABIT 
You have to get the 'big picture' of the piece in your head and play with that. In your recording every bar seems to be a picture itself and although Schumann was mad, he very likely didnt have your way of playing in his wicked head

Good luck, work on the big picture,

gyzzzmo

[pianowolfi]

Schumann was mad

I am not agree.

[gyzzzmo]

I am not agree.

Oh

[counterpoint]

I think Schumann was  a bit mad, and that's why I like his music so much.
Not as mad to send him to the Irrenanstalt, but normal artificial artistical  madness. 

But the Träumerei is not one of his best pieces