Re: FUN!

[pianoannie]

I don't specifically put the emphasis on "having fun," but my philosophy of music teaching is (and I always tell prospective students/parents this at our initial interview):  I consider the most important part of teaching piano is simply the passing on of my love of piano to my students.  If I can get a passion for music into their heart and soul, I've done a huge part of my job.  They have the rest of their life to refine their technique, add to their repertoire, and grow as a pianist.  But if I am so demanding and so strict as a teacher that a student hates piano and quits, s/he will likely never return to piano, and I have failed miserably.

Again, it's not necessarily about "fun," but it is about choosing pieces that each individual student will really love; it's about recognizing who can be pushed to near perfection with a piece, and whose spirit would be crushed if I am too picky; it's about having my studio be a place where each student can come and feel successful as a musician and valued as a person.  Some kids need a little more "fun" and some need mostly "seriousness."  The goal for me is to keep it all in balance, and to keep kids *wanting* to come to lessons.  Most of my students stay with me for several years, so my approach must be working.
pianoannie

[MzrtMusic]

Music is fun! It is something that I am very excited and passionate about. After all, it's what I've devoted my life to. My excitement about what I am doing makes my students excited. The general feelings of excitement will usually make lessons fun. I sometimes try to play games with them to reinforce things I'm teaching. Counting games, I have a few games for scales and such. So I try to make lessons fun, but it's mostly something that happens naturally.

Sarah

[lallasvensson]

sorry but when i hear the word "fun" i can t take people seriously. It is not fun to practise!!!
It is all about precision, patience, perfection, possibly art, but not fun!!

[Hmoll]

sorry but when i hear the word "fun" i can t take people seriously. It is not fun to practise!!!
It is all about precision, patience, perfection, possibly art, but not fun!!

Possibly art? OK....

The original post is from the perspective of teaching piano to kids. If it's not fun, they won't get anything out of lessons besides hating music.
Music involves discipline, yes. It also involves love for the art, fun, artistry.

BTW, I have a lot of fun when I practice, and I get a lot done.

[pianoannie]

Hmmm...this is odd.  When I typed my post above, it was as an answer to someone else's question.  Now the original question is gone, so it looks like I started this thread.  
I think the original question was something like "When teaching piano to children, do you put more emphasis on having fun or on developing good technique."  Hopefully this will help my post to make more sense.

[minsmusic]

sorry but when i hear the word "fun" i can t take people seriously. It is not fun to practise!!!
It is all about precision, patience, perfection, possibly art, but not fun!!

Then you're doing it wrong.

[namui]

If it's not too far away from one's taste, I recommend watching a Star Trek movie, episode "Generation". Two captains of the starship of different generations meet each other in the place where "time is under your control" and "whatever you dream becomes real". The old captain decides to follow the young captain back to real life for the "real excitement". The old captain died at the end. But the last thing he said about his last adventure is "It was ... fun", then smiled and died.

"FUN" doesn't have to be out-of-control. It just depends on how an individual utilizes such a feeling.

[minsmusic]

I have to apologise to people who have posted in this forum.    It was me (yes, I'm the culprit) who started the thread.  I removed it after taking someone's good ribbing too personally.  I was hoping to remove the whole thing, but it didn't happen.
So, to start again, the thread was "How important do you rate fun in your teaching strategy."
I asked, because I was genuinely curious.  I wasn't after a 'yes, it's very important.'  I would like to read people's honest opinions, even if it's 'There is NO place for fun in a piano lesson."
So once againk, I'm sorry for the confusion.  Was a bit too sensitve that night.  But I'm over it.  If you wanna know just HOW over it, take a look at my latest offering to poor lallasvenson in the "Am I the only one teaching traditionally' forum.
Basically, I got sick of other teachers assuming they were 'better' because they don't smile, or let their kids smile.  (hyperbole, folks, don't take me literally)
So, the topic again :

"How important do you rate fun in your teaching strategy."

[Chitch]

Out of 10
Let's just say if anyone comes in frowning I crack a joke

[pianoannie]

It was me (yes, I'm the culprit) who started the thread.  I removed it after taking someone's good ribbing too personally.  ... Was a bit too sensitve that night.  But I'm over it.  If you wanna know just HOW over it, take a look at my latest offering to poor lallasvenson in the "Am I the only one teaching traditionally' forum.
Basically, I got sick of other teachers assuming they were 'better' because they don't smile, or let their kids smile.  (hyperbole, folks, don't take me literally)
So, the topic again :

"How important do you rate fun in your teaching strategy."

Thanks for clarifying what happened to the original question.  I thought I was cracking up....answering questions that don't exist!
Thanks also for your very sensible replies in that other thread about having fun/rudely making assumptions about other teachers/being here for encouragement, etc.  I couldn't have said it better.
My students absolutely do have fun with me, and they absolutely do learn piano well.  Some hope to study music in college, some have won various competitions, and they all learn lots of theory, technique, ear training, sightreading, and anything else related to playing piano well.  My turnover is very low; I may lose 2 or 3 students a year out of 30 students, and many of those are due to moving away.  It's rare to lose a student due to lack of enjoyment.
One student, a highschool boy, is pretty busy with highschool stuff now, and can't put in the practice time that he used to, but still loves piano.  He told me recently that he knows he will always play the piano; he can't imagine ever giving it up.  THAT is what I'm after with my students!  A love of music that stays with them for life!
Another boy used to have a teacher that caused him to absolutely detest piano.  His mother said that he would literally cry after lessons sometimes.  He's  been with me for a couple of years now, playing mostly classical and hymn improvisation. I asked him recently what pieces that we had worked on together were ones that he really liked.  After thinking a few moments, he said enthusiastically, "I love everything you teach me!!" (Oh dear, we must have been having too much fun!!! gasp)  It's not that I'm choosing pieces that are so different from the former teacher--but I do make learning them an enjoyable experience.

[minsmusic]

Thank you guys!  I feel inspired, encouraged and determined by your comments.  I love children, they have so much they can offer.  I think teaching is the best career I could possibly choose.
It's funny what's been happening the forums lately - with all this debate about that dreadful word.  My mother sat me down onlyyesterday to have a serious word with me.  She thought I was putting 'too much effort' into my job and needed to ease back.  I tend to get a little obsessed with work, and am constantly thinking of new ideas and teaching resources, and then making them.  (I also write for and moderate a piano education site)  Yes, it takes a lot of my time, but I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't enjoy it - the actual process of lesson plans, building, and then implementing - especially when I see great results.  What a buzz.  

[lallasvensson]

My turnover is very low too. Actually i never had any pupil changing yet, but i dont have as many students as you.
Anyway, i accept the word enjoyable. My teaching is enjoyable as well since my students actually learn to play beautiful pieces decently.
But is there really absolutely nobody else than me on this forum which gets annoyed by the persistency of teachers who want FUN, FUN, FUN because they are so afraid to lose their students (bad for their self esteem ...)

[comme_le_vent]

fun  = pleasure/enjoyment

every action of every human being is directly/indirectly - conciously/unconciously intended to bring their being pleasure.

there are different kinds of pleasure of course, but in piano teaching, they can be divided into 2 groups

1 instant pleasures - the pleasures that lallasvensson seems to hate.

2 diligence rewarded and consequential pleasures - the pleasure of playing difficult music and the achivement of playing well etc. which requires some 'work' on the part of the student, 'work' meaning performing an activity that, if performed with diligenge of a certain period, will bring rewards at a later time.

both are very important, and each teacher should understand and value them both. and should also have the intuition and intellect to decide which is the most suited to the particular pupil in question.

one more thing - with young students - they cant understand even the concept of number 2 - until any student is mature enough to realise the virtues of the second kind of pleasure, the 1st kind should be of the most importance.

[comme_le_vent]

my post above is the total summation of my thoughts on minsmusic(whom i like) and lallasvensson's(whom i find tedious and mildly infuriating) 'argument'.

i hope i have made a philosophical post worthy of the great bernhard  

what do you guys think about my thoughts?

[bernhard]

my post above is the total summation of my thoughts on minsmusic(whom i like) and lallasvensson's(whom i find tedious and mildly infuriating) 'argument'.

i hope i have made a philosophical post worthy of the great bernhard  

what do you guys think about my thoughts?

I am impressed.

I would only add the following to this minefield, which I am going to tread as carefully as porcupines making love in the hope that nothing detonates:

Fun is an internal experience.

Fun is not a quality of anything in this universe.

Therefore a piano lesson cannot be fun. It cannot be boring either.

A person, however may have an internal experience – labelled as fun or boring – when attending a piano lesson.

So the correct way to express oneself is not: “This is boring/fun”, but rather, “I am experiencing boredom/fun as I face this”.

This is not just being precious about language. The consequences are staggering.

If you believe your internal reactions to things are actually qualities of these things, you will soon start hating things to which you react with unpleasant internal experiences. And you will become obsessed with things to which you react with pleasure. So in the end, all is suffering.

On the other hand, if you perceive the truth, than you will also know that it is up to you to decide and choose with which internal experience you will respond when faced with whatever the universe throws at you.

If you decide that you will be bored there is no amount of teacher’s effort that will make you experience fun. (Try making a depressive have fun).

Likewise it would be wrong to say: “So and so post made me angry”. In fact there is no power in the whole universe that can force you to have a internal experience you do not wish to have. The correct verbalisation has to be: “As I read so and so post, I decided to experience anger.”

This is hard to digest because it throws back right at us the responsibility for our inner states. We can no more blame the teacher for the lesson being boring. And the teacher cannot bask anymore in the pride of having caused fun in his/her students.

Which is why ultimately fun cannot be defined in terms of things and processes in the Universe. There is nothing in the whole universe that would guarantee universal fun – this could only be possible if fun was a quality of things. But since fun is an internal response different people will respond differently to the same thing, and even the same people will respond differently to the same thing at different times in their lives.

So unless a student at some point in his/her musical career decides to respond to practice and lessons with “fun”, there will be little hope for progress.

One last point: As a piano teacher my main aim and goal is that my students learn to play the piano. It is not to make them have the internal experience called fun. In fact I do not believe that I or anyone else has the power to induce such experience on anyone. At the same time no one is ever going to learn the piano unless they start responding to it with “fun” (or pleasure, or fulfilment, or whatever terminology you may want to use).

This means that both Minmusic and Lallasvensson are absolutely right, and they are both absolutely wrong. You need fun, but you should not make it a priority. Your priority should be imparting knowledge. To have fun should be the priority of the student, since s/he is the only one who can have it.

Nothing is interesting if you are not interested. (Helen MacInnes)

Enjoyment is not a goal, it is a feeling that accompanies ongoing activity (Paul Goodman).

Thus spoke Bernhard.

[comme_le_vent]

interesting, you say we 'decide' to react and experience anger/fun etc.
i understand what you mean, but there is a certain inevetibility to what people experience, which i think shoudlnt be expressed with the word 'decide', the word decide implies that there was a choice for the mind to make, but when a human being has genes/previous experiences of a certain kind there has to be a certain inevetibility about their recations which couldnt correctly be labelled as a choice, more like an 'inevitable instinctive reaction'.
an analogy - lets say you have a wife and you love her, she dies(sorry for the bad analogy).....and what do you do, you feel sadness.............that cant possibly be a choice, it has to be an 'inevitable instinctive reaction'.

lol, maybe ive misunderstood you bernhard...and its late....  

[pianoannie]

Well Bernhard,
 I normally agree with your posts and their bountiful wisdom. (wait...is wisdom a quality a post can have?) :-/
You got way too psycho-babbly for me this time.  I'll agree that a person's attitude affects his perception of "fun" or "boredom."  But I also believe that certain experiences are, in and of themselves, quite boring.  And I also believe that I, as a piano teacher, can do much to make lessons particularly fun/enjoyable/interesting, or make them boring/unmotivating/unenjoyable.  If it was all a matter of the person "deciding to experience fun" then it wouldn't matter which teacher a student went to, because every piano lesson would be perceived as "fun," which we all know isn't true.

[pianoannie]

Anyway, i accept the word enjoyable. My teaching is enjoyable as well since my students actually learn to play beautiful pieces decently.
But is there really absolutely nobody else than me on this forum which gets annoyed by the persistency of teachers who want FUN, FUN, FUN because they are so afraid to lose their students (bad for their self esteem ...)

You certainly are jumping to some rude conclusions.  I have no problem with my self-esteem in regard to how my students view me.  And what teacher here or anywhere says we provide FUN, FUN, FUN anyway?  I think most of us on the side of FUN simply want to mix in a little fun rather than keeping everything mundane.  Maybe you are misunderstanding us, as you did say you could accept the word "enjoyable."
Here are examples of what I mean when I say we have "fun:" instead of always drilling flashcards (boring)with young students who need note review, we might toss beanbags onto my giant floor staff and name the notes they land on; or we might use M&Ms on a laminated staff I use for various games.  Sometimes I do use flashcards, and make a big deal about the student being able to name and play each of them in under a minute.  These are activities that the students see as "fun."  Sure, I could sit there week after week and for note review do nothing but flashcard drills with a stern expression on my face, but that would not be very creative on my part.
(that's just one little example.  And before you flame me for these ideas, yes, I realize that some students don't even need flashcard or note review, because they pick it up so easily just from the pieces they are learning.  But for students who do struggle with learning the notes, I do try to make it FUN).
I laugh with my students. I share in their joy when they play a section beautifully.  I get all excited with them when they graduate from one book to the next.   We think of silly phrases to fit the rhythm of a song if it's a trouble-spot (we did "hot dogs, and ap-ple pie!" just today for the syncopated 1 &-- & 3 & 4).  We just have a great time together!  And it's no act; it's not anything I have to fake.  I couldn't NOT have fun teaching piano--it just happens.  We just really enjoy working together in piano lessons.  I love these kids and they love coming to lessons.  THAT'S what I mean when I say lessons are fun.  Enjoyable.  Pleasurable.  Whatever you call it, it's working for me and my students!  

[bernhard]

Please, understand that I have no particular wish to convince anyone of the truth of these statements. I am quite happy for all of you to hang on to your beliefs. But I am also happy to expand on these ideas for the simple purpose of clarification. If you understood what I have said and you completely disagree this is fine.

interesting, you say we 'decide' to react and experience anger/fun etc.  
i understand what you mean, but there is a certain inevetibility to what people experience, which i think shoudlnt be expressed with the word 'decide', the word decide implies that there was a choice for the mind to make, but when a human being has genes/previous experiences of a certain kind there has to be a certain inevetibility about their recations which couldnt correctly be labelled as a choice, more like an 'inevitable instinctive reaction'.
an analogy - lets say you have a wife and you love her, she dies(sorry for the bad analogy).....and what do you do, you feel sadness.............that cant possibly be a choice, it has to be an 'inevitable instinctive reaction'.

As far as internal experiences are concerned there is no inevitability. There is no gene that says that you should feel sad if a beloved member of your family dies. In fact it is very much a matter of personal choice. Many cultures around the world who believe in different forms of afterlife are positively delighted when their beloved dies.

However there is a strong cultural pressure to conform to society’s expectations in terms of external experience. If you live in a culture where grief is mandatory, you will feel it even if you do not wish to. This gives rise to the illusion that the grief was “caused” by the event. If you then start talking about it as if that was the case, then internal reactions become controllable by other powers then your own volition. Hence mass phenomenons like riots, or rock concerts. However I still maintain that nothing in this universe can cause you to have an internal reaction. Only you can do it (that seems obvious to me – which is an internal reaction I’ve just decided to experience: yeah! Obvious!)

Which leads us to pianoannie similar (and equally easy to dismiss objection):

I'll agree that a person's attitude affects his perception of "fun" or "boredom."  But I also believe that certain experiences are, in and of themselves, quite boring.

How exactly can an experience be boring? An experience is an experience. Only you can feel boredom. The only way to say that an experience is boring is your feeling of boredom. If you were not around to feel it, how would we know? There is no independent way to check the boredom quotient of an experience. Therefore nothing in this universe is boring. Everything is absolutely neutral. It is us who may like or dislike these neutral things. And since different people are bored or excited by the same thing, and sometimes even the same person will be bored or excited by the same thing, it is quite clear that boredom is not a quality of things or experiences, but rather our reaction to them. I challenge you to give me one single example of one single experience that would be thought universally boring by anyone at anytime. If you succeed I will change my mind completely and believe that boredom is after all a quality of things.

And I also believe that I, as a piano teacher, can do much to make lessons particularly fun/enjoyable/interesting, or make them boring/unmotivating/unenjoyable.  If it was all a matter of the person "deciding to experience fun" then it wouldn't matter which teacher a student went to, because every piano lesson would be perceived as "fun," which we all know isn't true.

No, you cannot. What you can do is co something you believe will make the lesson fun, and happen to find a student who culturally experiences fun when faced with what you do.

Take Minsmusic example of washing a toilet and listening to music. Washing a toilet is considered a revolting thing to do in our culture. In certain cultures excrement is highly valued (as fertilizer) and people will not only clean toilets with gusto, as they will pay you for the privilege of doing so. In other cultures music is regarded with distaste, being actually forbidden. So the technique of giving a CD to a toilet cleaner will only work if /she already has an internal program to respond to music with pleasure. For a person who has no such program, the CD may compound the unpleasantness of the task. And for a person for whom excrement is highly valued there will be no need to create any fun: Cleaning the toilet is already more fun that they can handle.

What does this leave us as piano teachers?

You get your new student. If your aim is fun, you will have to try all sorts of behaviours until you get one that triggers the new student cultural program. If you fail he will not have fun, and will either stop lessons, or find another teacher that hits on the precise set of stimulus that triggers the cultural program. So this pretty much explains why the teacher matters. It is simply a matter of natural selection. This means that we are treating with highly conditioned people. Their responses are not controlled by their volitions but by their socio-cultural programming.

But there is another option which is to actually teach a student to respond with fun to anything. The beauty of this is that it frees us from many unnecessary limitations, boredom being the most obvious of them.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[minsmusic]

This is really funny!  Yes, I am choosing to roll my eyes.  To begin with, I chose to feel frustrated, then I thought, ah, who cares?  And now I choose to feel somewhat flabergasted and amused.  I asked people what priority was fun.  I also suggested they give their own definition of the word fun, realising people view words differently.

Now, suddenly, it appears that other teachers, yes, you too Bernhard, would like to interpret a group of words strung casually into a sentence with not a hell of a lot of thought put into it (I'm referring to me, nobody else)as someone's philosophy of teaching.  

You betcha I chose to be angry at lallasvenson's comment.  I CHOSE to feel personally attacked. I had quite a few options at my disposal.  I could have ignored the post.  I could have taken the time to carefully analyse his/her words.  I could have chosen to believe the comment was not a criticism.  i could have apologised, which I believe IS important if I've hurt someone's feelings, I could have curled up into a ball and felt very very sorry for myself because it appeared as though some person I didn't even know didn't 'appear' to think very much of me.

I'm choosing now to respond with lots of long waffle, because I don't want to go shopping, and I'm choosing to feel annoyed because somehow unexplainable to me at the moment it gives me a sense of satisfaction.  I am also choosing to feel frustrated because my efforts to explain myself apparently are failing.  I choose to feel the need to justify myself, which I believe is completely unnecessary if I disciplined myself to think rationally, but at the moment I'm allowing myself to wallow a little in emotion.

So, for anyone who actually gives two hoots, my PRIORITY in teaching is neither for me nor the student to experience fun.  Nor is it to impart knowledge - (I have chosen to interpret this word as 'academic' facts. If I've made a mistake , correct me if you choose to be bothered.)  
1.MY priority in teaching is to equip a person with the necessary skills so that when they leave the studio they have the ability to play, practise, experiment and progress to the best of THEIR talent, resources, background, culture, opportunities.  
2. Second.  I hope to help guide them to experience a pleasure of learning, working hard, sense of accomplishment, achievement, and pride in everything they do in life.
3. I hope to accomplish the above in respects to music and their choice of instrument (I teach others besides the piano - which is my personal favourite)
4.Fourth.  I want to make sure I experience a personal sense of joy, accomplishment, fulfillment/satisfaction and pride in my work.  

This is not exhaustive, but I have ranted enough.

I am using the word FUN as a noun, not a verb.   I don't care if linguistically right or wrong.  I don't care if my personal philosophy is viewed as being right or wrong - it's subjective anyway.  I'm writing this because I would like my posts to be at least understood.  Why?  Because I believe I can provide something to other teachers (as they can to me) and I enjoy writing posts - especially when I feel I am understood.

So, an example.  I want the student to repeat a passage five times.  I have many options available to me to communicate this desire of mine.  Let's stick with two.  1. I can tell them.  2. What I choose to do, is tell them we are going to repeat this passage five time and THEN (and this is the 'FUN' part ) ask them to pick five different coloured mini pegs (which I personally think are so cute), they attach them to the sheet of music (and my favourite music is classical, so my kids tend to play this too). Then, after each repetition, they get to take one of the pegs off the page and put it back in the box.  Not earth shattering stuff. But, when I say, we're going to repeat blah blah blah, they say 'goody!' and do it enthusiastically.  Makes my job easier,  makes me smile because they are, ( I absolutely adore children) they've learnt something (the priority) and they have enjoyed it too. And I had to admit I was really surprised (and delighted) at how something so simple could have such a great, beneficial effect.

I hope I've been able to express myself in a manner that is understandable.  Once again, (repetition is another very good teaching tool),  I do not care if agree with me or not.  I care that I'm understood.  Otherwise, I'm wasting my time, getting myself frustrated and others too.

Anyway.  Now I'm choosing to smile   and read the other wonderful posts that everyone else takes the time to write.
Jenny

[cellodude]

I am not a teacher, but a father of 2 lovely children aged 9 (girl) and 7 (boy). Judging from all the posts about 'fun' and 'traditional method' on the threads here I think I'm more inclined to send my children (especially my daughter) to minsmusic for their lessons.

My daughter's spirit would almost certainly be crushed by the 'traditional method'. She has such a soft disposition. And oh, of couse I wouldn't mind sending them off to Bernhard as well although he did say that he was expensive in another post . And here I am trying to figure out ways and means to make money to feed my addiction (see my other post in the Anything but piano section).

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you can't put a square peg into a round hole. We are all of different temperaments and we need different approaches to meet the individual's need(s). Some may need the firm approach and be scolded to get things accomplished but the rest of us are humans (sorry, I couldn't resist - hanging my head in shame). minsmusic's example of using the colour pegs to get the student to repeat 5 times sounds wonderful and very creative. Definitely beats scolding to get it out of the child.

The important thing is what is achieved in the end is the same (as the 'traditional method') i.e. musicians of the highest caliber in their chosen field of music be it teacher, performer, etc.

There are many excellent modern pedagogic material with cute sounding names like 'The midnight express', 'Jack in the box' and so on, but when a child has learnt the piece s/he would also have learnt a particular technique required to play 'real' classical music. When they see that same pattern (say alberti bass) in a classical piece it isn't so daunting anymore. That is a very obvious example of using 'fun' to introduce serious classical music to youngsters. My children's teacher does it all the time.

And by the progress my children are making it looks like it is working. They are very, very hooked on to classical music. They love watching DVDs of orchestra performances (they play the violin too, same teacher). Everytime, we get into the car and my wife turns on the radio and pop music comes on, one of them would always without fail reach out and shove in a classical music cassette, be it Zimmerman playing Chopin's Waltzes, Mozart's Horn concerto or even T's 1812. And they absolutely love Bizet's Carmen. They just squeal with delight when it comes on.

They are also doing very well in the local orchestra. They are the youngest at 9 and 7. My son is in the junior section and my daughter has progressed to the senior section and just before last Christmas she was promoted to first violin. She sticks out like a sore thumb sitting with the 16 and 17 year-olds. All this in the space of 2 years. I attribute this to a very good teacher. Maybe that's how I recognize the good teachers on this board!

As for piano, I began coaching her when she was 5 and last year (at eight)  I turned her over to her violin teacher for her piano lessons (he has qualifications for both instruments). I only coached her on introductory and Grade 1 stuff (UK ABRSM). But when he took over he was able to bring her level up very quickly and she is now preparing for the Grade 5 exam (2004). And all this using the 'fun' method.

I think I better stop. I've gone on way, way too long. Just to recap my 2 points. 1. Individuals require different approaches to achieve the same end. 2. 'fun' need not necessarily detract students from appreciating classical music.

dennis lee

[lallasvensson]

Why do you think my students dont make huge progress ? What do you know about that ??

And indeed,  before getting started, i always warn parents that life of their kids wont be easy with me, and that there billion of fun teachers out there which might fit their needs better.

I think these color games or whatever are pure waste of time. When i go through a piece with my students, i am very dry and short, IF i say, 5 times, it s enough to make them repeat 5 times. My lessons are full of once more.

All it says is that i am not wasting time with artificial means. I prefer to spend time wondering about how to make a phrase legato than how to make it fun for the student to repeat 5 times.

[cellodude]

I didn't say your students don't make good progress. I'm sure they do (and I'm not being sacarstic here). I think you missed my point about the pegs and holes.

My daughter can be easily frightened. Once when she was about 4 or 5 she was reprimanded for forgetting to do something. She replied quietly, 'You don't have to scold me. Just a simple reminder would do'. And I realized that she is matured enough to do things on her own. She slips up once in a while but a gentle prod is enough to put her back in the right direction.

Again, different methods for different personalities. You can't use a hammer alone to build a whole house. Neither can you use one teaching method for all students.

dennis lee

[bernhard]

Again, different methods for different personalities. You can't use a hammer alone to build a whole house. Neither can you use one teaching method for all students.

dennis lee

Most excellent, Dennis Lee!

I could not agree more.

A (good) teacher should have a clear aim and keep changing behaviour until s/he gets the results s/he was after.

A (good) teacher should also be able to elicit the desired result with at leat three different strategies. If you just have one strategy you are stuck. If you have two you experience confusion and indecisiveness (which one to use?) But with three possibilities you have choice! (yeah! I love choice! )

If the colored pegs are not working, perhaps a display of impatience will (and I mean a "display" a teacher should not really be impatient: it will cloud his/her judgement).

The only limitations here are the teacher's repertory of behaviours (which include his/her deep beliefs: If you don't believe in colored pegs you are liiting yourself unnecessarily - likewise if you do not believe in scolding students you are limiting yourself in the other direction),
and the sensitivity of the teacher toward the results s/he is getting, that is, noiticing that scolding  - or using colored pegs - is or is not working. As I always say: if want you are doing is not working, do something else!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lallasvensson]

Here we have a different view. I firmly believe that the way it should work is that the pupil must adapt to the teacher, not the other way round.
If my teaching does not fit, there are one billion fun teachers around.
When i think back about my piano teachers and school teachers, i cared very little about their degree of funniness or strictness. The only thing mattering is what i learnt. If a pupil doesnt understand that, he should play with his game boy instead of playing the piano.

[pianoannie]

lalla,
there are "one billion fun teachers" and then there is poor little you, the only "traditional" teacher left.  Of course, YOU have it right and the other BILLION have it wrong.  I know that whenever *I* am the only person out of billions coming to a particular conclusion on an issue, I also SMUGLY and ARROGANTLY delight in the fact that *I* am right and EVERYONE else is wrong.  Then I find message boards on those issues and pride myself even more by informing everyone how RIGHT I am and how WRONG they are, and share lots and lots of insults thinly disguised as unsolicited advice.  Does that the fact that I am the only one with my narrow opinion ever cause me to think that perhaps I could rethink my opinion and learn from others?  Of course not!!!  Because *I* am the superior one.  My self-esteem would suffer to even entertain the thought that other people might be partially right.

And I thank the stars above for my superior childhood education, with our black and white textbooks (no illustrations of course), 2 hours a day of reciting the multiplication tables (as we stood at attention of course), scrubbing the toilets in lieu of PhysEd class sports, and the bread and water that we so gratefully consumed for lunch.  Thankfully MY school didn't believe in fun, or colors, or visual stimulation, or creativity, or treating us as individuals.  As 6 year olds, we were mature enough to adapt to our teacher.  Why in the world should the ADULT have to be the one to do the adapting?!  

(and since people on message boards never cease to amaze me, I will add THIS IS ALL SARCASM!!!)

[lallasvensson]

Dear Annie,
i am far from being the only traditional teacher, fortunately, i know quite a few who share my views.
And actually i feel that Bernhard, when he explains that he demands full obedience to the letter from his students (his words), is sharing lots of my views as well.
BUt so many of you seem have to given up, because of course it happens to me as well when i am tired to start making it easier for the student and for me as well.

[pianoannie]

lalla,
ok, I went a little overboard in that last post, but woman you've got my blood boiling.
If you want to teach "traditionally" as you call it and never use colored pegs or stickers or M&Ms or WHATEVER.......that is peachy-fine with me!  I didn't start this word-war, and I have not told you that anything you are doing is wrong; I have not implied that I am a superior teacher to you.  I have tried to defend my teaching methods, and show to you that my way is valid.  YOUR way is valid too, if it works for you and your students.  

Unlike you, I do not have to say or imply that MY way is superior.  I do not have to put down other teachers by saying "oh, there's a BILLION teachers that do it your (inferior) way." (inferior being clearly implied).  It is quite possible to share *how* you teach and what works for you and your students, without insulting everyone else in the process.

You've got a long way to go in people skills.  Geesh--I can usually get along with almost anyone.  In fact, this is probably the only time in my life I have posted anything negative anywhere.  I'm just a pretty nice person!  Can we just call a treuce and try to show respect for each other's teaching philosophy and methods?  

[pianoannie]

BUt so many of you seem have to given up, because of course it happens to me as well when i am tired to start making it easier for the student and for me as well.

What do you mean we have given up?  Or making it easier for the student?  We are simply talking about incorporating a variety of activities into lessons to keep them fresh, stimulating, and enjoyable.  If you don't want to use colored pegs, fine, but to say it is a "complete waste of time" is beyond rude.  You are so full of yourself you can't even hear what others are saying.  It doesn't take any more time to use stickers or colored pegs or whatever than it does for me to simply say "once more."  Those things serve as a type of visual graph to the student of their successes.
Please re-read my first post.  Seriously, please read it.  I never said I emphasize FUN.  I said my first and foremost goal is to pass on my LOVE of music.  When I teach piano, I do have FUN.  That's part of my personality, who I am.  Please re-read things you have typed, compared to minsmusic's and my posts, and see if you still think you have responded to us fairly and kindly.  

I think that we should all be able to treat each other as professional colleagues, and share our ideas without being told we are "wasting students' time."

[lallasvensson]

I dont need FUN, colored stickers etc  to keep my lessons interesting because music is interesting enough by itself. If music is not enough to keep the pupil entertained, he should go back to his nintendo.

[bernhard]

Here we have a different view. I firmly believe that the way it should work is that the pupil must adapt to the teacher, not the other way round.

Yes, that is an excellent philosophy and attitude, but for the student, not for the teacher.

The teacher should have the opposite philosophy and attitude. Why? Because it will make him/her grow as a teacher.

I remember reading at one point in my life an interview with Daniel Baremboin, where he stated:

“There are no bad students, only bad teachers.”

I remember thinking to myself:

“That’s rich of him! He probably has auditions, selects his students with a fine sieve and make sure he has the best possible students before agreeing to teach them. And even then most of the hard work will be probably done by his assistants. I would like to see how he would fare with some of my students!”

But then I reflected again and realised that he was absolutely right. This is the only appropriate philosophy for a teacher to have, otherwise he will stagnate.

However this would be a disastrous philosophy for a student to have. It would make the student petulant and impervious to learning anything (“If I am not learning it is the teacher’s fault, since there are no bad students. Only bad teachers.”)

The correct philosophy for students is: There are no bad teachers, only bad students. This way he may learn something even from a terrible teacher.

Hopefuly a teacher with the proper philosophy and a student with a proper philosophy will meet somewhere in the middle and produce superlative results.

But it is not uncommon to see the situation reversed with despair and grief for everyone concerned. (Can you imagine? A student who believes firmly that there are no bad students, only bad teachers. And a teacher that firmly believes that there are no bad teachers, only bad students. Murder and mayhem will follow such a meeting).

The truth of course is that there are good and bad teachers, good and bad students. But chances are that good teachers and good students are the ones with the correct philosophies.

I do agree with you that what matters most is what one learns at the end, and sometimes certain lessons must be learned through suffering rather than  pleasure (“Pain is the best teacher, but no one wants to go to his class”)

But contrary to you, I care little for “my methods” or “my teacher’s methods”. Exactly because my priority is that a student learns to play the piano, I am prepared to try anything that may work, even if it goes against my most cherished beliefs. Beliefs, specially cherished ones can be a great limitation. (Yes, I have tried colours, why not? Read Candida Tobin’s arguments for the use of colours in music and you may be quite amazed by it all  - the only reason music notation is not colourful is on account of printing difficulties which have disappeared with printing technology – but now the tradition of black notes is too strong for change – in medieval times when it was all done by hand music was colourful - just have a look at any Gregorian Chant score.)

In several of your posts moreover, you have shown interest in what other people do when faced with certain situations for which your methods clearly have not worked.

And yet when given answers and suggestions you seem unwilling to try them.

I find nothing wrong that you wish to specialise in students who adapt well to your methods and students who share your ideas. But then you must be prepared to accept that such students are few and rare, and that you will find infinite students and situations you will not be able to cope with. And I say this with no hint of criticism whatsoever. I have no personal interest in you accepting or not accepting my ideas. It is just that you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I do agree with you however that music should be enough fun and that one should not need to disguise it as something else. But then I think everyone would agree with this.

I wish you the best of luck in your teaching.
Bernhard.

[mglab]

Okay, I really really wanted to stay out of this, but I just can't anymore.
First off, young kids may not understand or have the love for music like you do. Therefore, many of them need to have at least minimal "fun" to keep them entertained.
At least, that was my case. I wasn't that interested in piano when I was younger, but as I've grown older, I've learned to love it. Would I have eventually loved it if my teacher didn't at least make things interesting? Maybe not. In fact, I probably would've quit. And don't you tell me to "go back to my nintendo" just because I didn't understand music before. Not every kid is the same, they all learn differently. Some by hearing, some visually, and I think that a good teacher should be able and willing to adapt to the child's ways. I'm just sharing my opinion and I do not wish to be criticized for the way that I learned.
lalla, let me make this clear. I DO understand where you are coming from, and I respect it fully, but I don't think that you're making a big enough effort to understand where WE are coming from. Don't think that my lessons are just fun and games. I work extremely hard and I learn a lot too. No, my teacher doesn't do the "colored stickers" thing, but she will crack a joke once in a while to help me understand my problem. She is very strict, but nice and "fun" too. You CAN do both, you know...

[lallasvensson]

Bernhard
my methods work well. And i have enough students tired of fun teachers, thank you. My students come prepared in 99 % of the cases and progress rapidly.
If i have some doubts, it is not about my methods, it is about some piano playing issues. A never ending story. I still practise a lot, to the contrary of many people posting on this board. I practise on all the pieces i give to my students carefully.
Then i think i got good advice from you that i actually tried, even if i didnt write it back on the forum.