how to teach b minor scale fingering?

[monluu]

What would your method be of introducing b minor harmonic and melodic scale (esp. the fingering) to young students who have had piano lessons for 2-3 yrs?

[desordre]

 Dear Monluu:
 Let me suggest something. I don't like to give to the students standard fingerings right in the first contact with a scale, or arpeggio, or whatever. Try to explain to your pupil what are the notes of the b-minor scale, and let him explore it. (Obviously, HS). Don't hurry to "correct", just give some directions: probably he/she will figure out it alone, in a few hours, or days, or weeks...
 Best!

[jeremyjchilds]

There will definitely be other ways to do this, but I think it makes pedagogical sense to use the same fingering as usual,  ex. as in the C major scale, unless there is a need to change it.

I understand Desordre's idea on letting the student figure it out themselves, but in my experience, this leads to problems later on. I have become convinced that a solid, consistent fingering is a necessary requirement in confident scale playing. I definitely do not advocate additional complexities when learning something new, but fingering is worth it, especially when students are required to play fast, and with good tone.

The fingering itself is not important; the important thing is a logical consistency among all technique patterns that students can grasp hold of when their muscle memory fails them.


The normal fingering works well in the R.H. 

L.H. does not work with the normal fingering.
I see two options that will overcome this.

1) start on finger #3 (As you would for the 6th note of a D major scale) and continue on with the D major fingering. This reinforces the relative relationship to D major.

2) Probably simpler, use the same fingering as a B major scale (4321, 4321, 321...)


It depends on how strongly you associate the minors with the relative majors in your teaching of technique.

Hope I've helped.

[keyofc]

Fingering I learned and still use to teach:

RH - just like C major although the feel is quite different

LH- 43214321

I think it's our job to teach the fingering - not let them guess.

[Bob]

I would teach them the natural version first, 2 8ves.  All the minors.

Then the harmonic and melodic later.  Three forms of minor is a lot to take in.

[pianistimo]

everyone has a different approach and none is really that wrong.  as i see it - first year students usually learn all the major scales and then learn the minor ones as they relate to the major.  ie  a minor = C major scale - but from a to a with added seventh sharped

another way to look at them is to play them alternately.  B major and then play b minor.

to do it either way is ok - but they should know the related majors and minors - so the first year should really, imo, emphasize the circle of fifths.


if you play B major to b minor - you are simply lowering the third and sixth degree to play a harmonic minor scale.  and - you keep the fingering, for the most part, as you did with the major scale.

some teachers like to make sure that the student understands the concept of how many whole and half notes there are - and what the pattern is.  if you write this out for them - and then test them on it later (say natural minor pattern one week/month - and harmonic the next)  they'll remember it because they see a pattern they can fall back on if they forget the 'rules' or what is related to what.

the best test, though, is to start from square one and have them play the related major/minor so they are familiar in their 'mind's eye' of the key signature from the start.  that will give them a cue for the fingering, too.  i mean, if you know a minor is related to C major - you've got the fingering pretty well squared away.

one teacher i had would 'block'  - that means - to play (hands separately) all the notes up to the next thumb over/under.   so rh 123 would be ABC altogether.  then DEFG altogether.  if you can do these 'blocks' up and down the keyboard - it reinforces which fingers you are going to use.

[pianistimo]

james francis cooke's book is really great, too, for ideas.  for instance, he suggests for older students to play 'radiating' exercises - where you take the starting point :  B C# and then go back to B and 'crossover' the other way to A#.  the whole start is B C# B A# B with rh 12141.  each time you add one more note each direction. 

there are a lot of things one can do with scales.  one is to play in rhythms.  two octaves in rhythms of two.  three octaves in rhythms of three. four in four.  and five as fast as possible.  or just counting octaves only. 

what really helped me in second and third year piano was not only visualizing minor scales on the keyboard - but also on paper.  ask the student - can you write down the scale of b minor from the b under mid-C one ocatave (going up)?  then, they may be a little flustered - so you help them figure the key signature by first determining the related major.  this is the hardest part (remembering the related major).  once that is accomplished - they realize the key signature does all the work - excepting sharping the seventh note for the harmonic scale.

[stevehopwood]

I would not bother. I have far better things to do in a piano lesson than mess around with a pointless scale.

I am just trying to recall a piece in which I am required to play these scales. I am not saying they do not exist, but I cannot recall any.

And yes, before you ask. I have a vast repertoire.'

Steve 

[jeremyjchilds]

Please convince me as to why scales are pointless.

It sounds like you are exaggerating to make some kind of a point.

[pianistimo]

for absolute beginners - the  point is, imo, to help them realize that music is kind of like math. once you figure out what scale is related to what (major/minor) - then you go beyond that with arpeggios and exercises and finally just the music.

a student that doesn't know the circle of fifths is uninformed about how it all 'fits together.'  scales, chords, harmonies.

another exercise is to have them write the scale and then - add thirds atop - so they see the chords that go with each scale.  i think when children are young they have an easier time memorizing all this information.  and they don't have mental blocks as much.  and, once they know it - they can use it later for many different purposes.

[stevehopwood]

for absolute beginners - the  point is, imo, to help them realize that music is kind of like math. once you figure out what scale is related to what (major/minor) - then you go beyond that with arpeggios and exercises and finally just the music.

a student that doesn't know the circle of fifths is uninformed about how it all 'fits together.'  scales, chords, harmonies.

another exercise is to have them write the scale and then - add thirds atop - so they see the chords that go with each scale.  i think when children are young they have an easier time memorizing all this information.  and they don't have mental blocks as much.  and, once they know it - they can use it later for many different purposes.

My approach is the opposite to this. To my mind, the most important thing is to create enthusiasm for playing the piano.

My lesson time is spent on the musical aspects of pieces, awakening the kids to the expressive qualities and putting them in touch with their own poetic feelings. I will talk about theoretical concepts as and when understanding of them becomes necessary, or when the student is curious.

I am not saying you are wrong; we all have our different approach and what counts is the end result. I am merely offering my slant on this.

Steve 

[pianistimo]

understood!  no problem.  there ARE so many ways to approach teaching.  and, somewhere along the line if they learn the theoretical stuff - it's good.  for me, i teach it at the beginning with tetra-chord form so that it is really easy to play.  and, also - to make up various melodies that they can play.  a little composing.  agreed that creativeness is not often taught.  to be free and expressive.