Ligeti

[fyrexia]

I think ligeti is very good in practice and theory. He died last year only, he composed for movies such as space odessey and others.....
I heard the Lontano  and the violin concerto..... and is very beutiful.
You ever played o heard ligeti?
Opinions about ligeti in this topic i would like to see.

Cheers

[dnephi]

In my opinion, Ligeti's music is mathematical, not made for listening aesthetic.  In the 20th century, and the 21st, it seems that most music was made with other aesthetics in mind.  For instance, a friend's comp professor likes atonal music just because it's so different from any other kind of music.  He likes Ligeti for the shifting omnibus-like effects.

Regards,

Dan

[webern78]

In my opinion, Ligeti's music is mathematical, not made for listening aesthetic. 

Nonsense. The work of Ligeti is as instinctive and musical as you can get. I should know, he was one of the very first composers i approached when i started listening to classical, and i had a very easy time with him even though my understanding of music at the time was pitiful. 

From the man himself:

https://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/story/0,,2019005,00.html

"Six years ago I had the privilege of conducting the premiere of what sadly was to be his final orchestral work, the Horn Concerto. A few months earlier I had spent an unforgettable afternoon with him at his home in Hamburg, going through the score - as yet unperformed - discussing details of interpretation and checking tempos. As we finished, he suddenly said: "I hope these new harmonies will work, but I'm not sure. We will see. You know, I have no confidence in myself ..." When I protested that this was impossible, he gently responded: "But I don't. I know I should, but I don't. I'm basically doing all I do in the most amateur way, just trying to realise something that I imagine in my ear, in dreams. I use techniques, of course, but I forget them after writing and I have no overall scheme or permanent procedures. People of my generation truly believed that music could be explained and structured in a pseudo-mathematical way, but I never believed that."

[desordre]

 Dear Fyrexia:
 Ligeti is one of the most fundamental composer of mid to late 20th century. He was a great explorer of sound and texture, and his music defines (together with Penderecki) one of the streams of post-WW II compositional technique.
 If you didn't so, listen to the piano Etudes, that are pure magic.
 Pay attention that he didn't compose music to Space Odissey: Kubrick did choose music by him that was already composed.
 Best!

[desordre]

 Dear Dnephi:

In my opinion, Ligeti's music is mathematical, not made for listening aesthetic. (...)

In spite the fact that I shall respect your opinion, I actually disagree 100%. I don't want to be rude, but I'm tired about such general opinions that in fact says nothing. If that is not the case, please provide us some technical comments about Ligeti's technique, proving his mathematical approach. Otherwise, it is (as Mr. Webern78 said) nonsense.

(...) In the 20th century, and the 21st, it seems that most music was made with other aesthetics in mind.  (...)

It is quite obvious, isn't it? You wrote it like a regret, but as a cultural product of the period, its music reflects what it was, and what mankind (through composers and performers) thought and felt about it. Furthermore, it was the 20th century that saw radical changes in the very concept of  both aesthetics and music. The old-fashioned, romantic way is (and have been for a long time) no longer valid.

(...) For instance, a friend's comp professor likes atonal music just because it's so different from any other kind of music.  He likes Ligeti for the shifting omnibus-like effects. (...)

I'm sorry, but that "scholar" opinion means nothing. You can say the same thing to any music that you want, and the effect would be probably the same meaninglessness. For instance, I like plainchant because nothing sounds like it. And Josquin. And  Purcell. And Mozart. And so on.

 Looking forward to your insights. Best!

[dnephi]

A.
Crossreference:
https://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666(199603)137%3A1837%3C14%3AMM%26C%3E2.0.CO%3B2-M

You'll find that this link (above) says that there's more to this music than the numbers.  It even calls L'escalier du Diable "flamboyant", rising "majestically", and has a series of "apocalyptic chords swinging back and forth demonically, like bells pealing above a thunderous orchestra."  "Sonic ideas expressed" by the composer on the score itself.  This is Ligeti at his most "melodramatic, in music overwhelmingly powerful and thrilling."

https://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~tkunze/pbl/1999_desordre/ligeti.html

It may be no more mathematical than a Bach Fugue, but with Bach, he was tied to his musical aesthetic simultaneously, so one should not listen to ligeti like one would listen to Bach.
B.
Not really as obvious.  What I mean is that there are people who listen to 20th century and 21st century music and decide that they "must like it" because others do, without understanding the change of aesthetic.

C.Mozart was not so radically different as atonality was.  Don't say that.  Leading tones and harmonics which bound all of tonality and early modality together no longer applied.  It's just a new sphere to explore.

Dan

PS My main point was that she should understand the change in musical aesthetic which i think she missed.  It's not about feeling, and her post suggests that that's what she thought it was about. 

PPS I rather like certain pieces of the 20th century.  I recommend the Vine Sonata as a first 20th century piece.  Messiaen's first vingt regarde would also be good. My philosophy on 20th century is that they are mostly experimental, and sometimes it may not work as well as others, but you can't quite pidgeonhole people. 
My personal aesthetic ties me, usually, to the "obsolete" path.  Best wishes with your own.

[mikey6]

I think ligeti is very good in practice and theory. He died last year only, he composed for movies such as space odessey and others.....

I don't think Ligeti actually composed for 2001 - more like Kubrick pinching all sorts of music he thought worked with his on-screen imagery.  I think the entire score is a mash of classical music 'classics' (well, now after the movie anywayz).

[amanfang]

I heard a lecture recital just last week with the piano etudes.  Fascinating.  They are so complex - especially rhythmically.