Stages of Learning

[keyofc]

If you were to write a list on how you progressively teach a student,
what would it be?

[jeremyjchilds]

You need to check out max Camp's book "Teaching Piano"

The text is based on the premise of stages of complexity

[Bob]

It depends how the student learns and they path they follow.

I suppose there is a "traditional" path.  That would be the beginning piano curriculum.

Even more generally, I have seen ideas about how learning (like language) goes from immersion in the environment, to taking beginning steps, to mastery.  That idea.

[nsvppp]

Bernhard wrote a number of replies on this topic. The one I liked most is the following
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2450.msg21250.html

In this link (reply 6) he refers to the 4 stages of learning from toddlers to advanced.

[danny elfboy]

The best piano students I have heard are those who jumped to complex pieces without any preparation. I'm not sure I believe in the "stage by stage" phylosophy
Seems to me it just delays something which can't be learned or mastered through preparation but just by trying, failing, retrying, imitating and so on

Stages seems to me to put an artificial boundary on the concept of being ready
But I don't believe you ever become ready to do something or for the next stage until you just TRY IT and EXPERIENCE IT. Becoming ready seems to me dealying the only thing that can provide true learning

It's like with swimming.
You can waste months or years "becoming ready" to finally "try what's like to swim in deep water without help" or you can just be thrown where it's deep from the beginning and learning by needing to

I don't think all the time wasted with the first stages really mean anything.
Going where the water is deep after a lot of preparation is just like going where the water is deep from the beginning, just delayed

Students who practice pieces "within their stage" or "within their level" progress way worse and way slower than students who attempt way above their level pieces

Learning is hardly a mechanical and linear focusing on the material you can easily play or understand and move to the "next level" after months or years stuck on that trap, but providing your mind with something hard you can't do and let your curiosity, dedication, instinct, trials and errors, subconscious sorting it out for you. Learning by trying to reach directly a goal since as you try and make mistakes and find solutions you actively learn. That's how we learn our native language too, no progressive education stuff ... and there's nothing in life harder than learning to talk, it's way harder than all university majoring programs combined.

[invictious]

Simple.

First few lessons (2 months or so until they are ABRSM grade 1 or so)
Difficult, every is choking and no idea what to do.

following after (ABRSM grade 3)
Progressing slightly faster

then (ABRSM grade 5)
Take off, everything all of a sudden becomes easier, but not for musicality. Runs into musical block.

after (Grade
Slows down significantly, more musical blocks.

after that.
Very slow, dead. Musical and technical blocks.

[keyofc]

Invictious,
Did you prepare your method from the piano forum?

[keyofc]

Danny,
I can't imagine learning or teaching like that.  Did you know that many people learn to float before they swim?  And even before they float - some walk in water practicing the arm motions needed for swimming. (Something that is purely physical - which piano is not)

And say, did you know that it was Jack that walked up the hill?  It wasn't Mr. Complicated surnamed Expialaexpidotious who trudged uncertainly up the serpentine trail and by much forethought and determination reached the zenith of the small mountain.

[danny elfboy]

Danny,
I can't imagine learning or teaching like that.  Did you know that many people learn to float before they swim?  And even before they float - some walk in water practicing the arm motions needed for swimming. (Something that is purely physical - which piano is not)

I do know. I just doubt it works or that it has been proven that it works or does anything except delaying the only useful thing you can do. There are controversies about the science of learning, many believe know that step by step learning is an error and that we indeed learn by full immersion and practical trials with things that are too "difficult" for us.

[overscore]

And say, did you know that it was Jack that walked up the hill?  It wasn't Mr. Complicated surnamed Expialaexpidotious who trudged uncertainly up the serpentine trail and by much forethought and determination reached the zenith of the small mountain.

Rotfl!

[loops]

I do know. I just doubt it works or that it has been proven that it works or does anything except delaying the only useful thing you can do. There are controversies about the science of learning, many believe know that step by step learning is an error and that we indeed learn by full immersion and practical trials with things that are too "difficult" for us.

Children thrown in the deep end of a pool before they know how to float tend to panic and then require assistance to prevent drowning. Despite growing up in Australia with compulsory swimming every week of two terms in the school year, I never got very good at swimming. I well remember telling myself that if I could float it didn't matter if I couldn't see, let alone touch, the bottom.

so YES there is a small amount of preparation necessary before indulging in possibly dangerous activity.

With my piano playing, a *small* amount of technical activity has prevented undue frustration with my playing pieces, as I have some idea how to get the sound I want independently of the particular problems of the piece itself. For the record, I do 5-10 minutes technical activity for every hour I play pieces, and I only attempt technical exercises that I can't yet do fluently. Once I've "got it", there is no need for mindless repetition.