Berg Sonata

[thalberg]

Okay, so who plays the Berg Sonata?  Anyone? 

[jre58591]

aimard has the best recording ive heard of it.

[dnephi]

Pollini recorded it, didn't he?  How was his recording?

Off topic, this is one of my favorite atonal works.

Now, i'm rather confused because Thalbergmad has gone as "Thal" or "Thalberg" in your absence...

Hard to shift.

And, so you can randomly see...

https://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi?acc_num=osu1048801477 .

It's awesome. 

[jre58591]

Off topic, this is one of my favorite atonal works.

this piece is not atonal, hence the key of b minor.

[dnephi]

this piece is not atonal, hence the key of b minor.

:/...

Isn't it 12 tone?  Can 12-tone be tonal?

Dan

[phil13]

It's not 12-tone at all. It's TONAL. It has a tonal center and a key signature, even!

12-tone, by definition, CANNOT be tonal, but Berg wrote this before any solid influences of Schoenberg's system were present in his music.

Phil

[dnephi]

Hmm... is it serial?  I'm not bothering to look it up.

[mephisto]

It is written in a very cromathic late romantic style. That is why you think it is atonal. Gotta love this amazing piece.

[phil13]

Hmm... is it serial?  I'm not bothering to look it up.

Serial = 12-tone.

Meph is right. It's a highly chromatic, tonal piece.

Phil

[iumonito]

Serial = 12-tone.

Meph is right. It's a highly chromatic, tonal piece.

Phil

Some clarifications:

A piece can be serial without being 12-tone.  For example, I think Schoenberg Op. 23 No. 3 is based on a 5-note row. (corrected typo, formerly referred to 33.3, which does not exist, only and b)

A piece can be 12-tone based and still sound tonal.  Just combine the 12-note rows in a way that non-tonal notes are passing or grace notes and all your tonal center notes hit structurally important spots.  More loosely, something like Berg's violin concerto, which is 12-note based, sound very tonal becuase of a more sophisticaed application of the principle I just described.

[mephisto]

Some clarifications:

A piece can be serial without being 12-tone.  For example, I think Schoenberg Op. 33 No. 3 is based on a 5-note row.

I am only familliar with op. 33a and 33b. Wich piece are you refering to?

[iumonito]

I am only familliar with op. 33a and 33b. Wich piece are you refering to?

Typo, sorry.  23.3.  I think that's the one, away from scores now.  23.5 is the first piece using 12-note rows in a serial manner, but 23.3 has serial writing already, only a series of fewer notes.

[thracozaag]

 It's a pain to memorize, and randomly almost all performances of it I hear completely misinterpret the tempo marking.

koji

[thalberg]

Woohoo!  I'm so happy we're talking about this.  I wrote my dissertation on the Berg Sonata.

After analyzing every bar and reading all the history on it, I can cheerfully tell you guys it is not twelve tone. 

It is basically both tonal and atonal.  Some authors call it a "conflict" between atonality and tonality.  Lots of passages with no tonal center, but then there are tonal landmarks, like the b minor cadence at the end of the first phrase, the Adom9 chord at the beginning of the second theme (which points to D major, the relative major, but never resolves to it) and then the F# dominant chord at  the end of the closing theme.

My favorite recording is Peter Hill on the Naxos label.

[thracozaag]

  It harmonically stradles that nether-zone between tonality and atonality that Scriabin explored in his later works (although Scriabin dabbled in bi-tonality in the Op. 74 preludes).

koji

[pita bread]

I'd say it has a very similar tonality to the Scriabin 4th and 5th sonatas.

@ Koji, do you mean the commonly available recordings of this piece or live performances you've heard?

[fnork]

I played it last year. It's a piece you're never entirely finished with, though. Sure, it takes time to memorize, but I found that there were a lot of things about it that were WAY more difficult. Relationships between tempos, bringing out the right dynamics, how much accelerandos/ritardantos one should do etc etc... The amount of information for such a short piece, page-wise, makes it necessary for you to study every single bar under a microscope, sort of...I'm about to record it next week actually, I could post my recording here - don't expect the most amazing performance though.
It's such an incredibly poweful unique piece where basically all of the material is taken from the opening bars, and if you're not totally inspired in performance it ends up sounding boring.

It's a pain to memorize, and randomly almost all performances of it I hear completely misinterpret the tempo marking.

koji

You mean the opening tempo marking? You think it gets played too fast? One tends to rush in this piece, especially in the builup to the big climax around page 4-5, and in the sextuplet figure that occurs sometimes.

[thracozaag]

You think it gets played too fast? One tends to rush in this piece, especially in the builup to the big climax around page 4-5, and in the sextuplet figure that occurs sometimes.

  Actually, I find most pianists play it far too slowly.

koji

[fnork]

We might have heard different recordings then Have you played it a lot yourself? If so, how does the audience generally recieve it? I remember very well my first hearings of this piece, it was so powerful... I find that the problem when learning and playing it a lot, you tend to overanalyse things which gets you further away from the emotional impact that the piece can cause. At the same time, it IS necessary to know the details in the score... it's hard to balance the two things.