"Weight" in the keys?

[pianobabe_56]

What is putting "weight" in the keys, and how is it done? Pushing harder? More use of the arms?

I'm especially intrigued after reading Seymour Bernstein's "With Your Own Two Hands" and his references to finger weight.

What does this mean? How is it done?

[pianowelsh]

Finger weight - weight of your finger.
Arm weight - weight of arm.
you sometimes hear about using the shoulder girdle too. We generally are taught to sit on the fron portion of the stool so our weight is poised in such a way that if can fall into the piano. If we allow the weight of our whole torso to fall into the piano with a relaxed arm we get a very loud and weighty - voluminous sound. Sometimes referred to as relaxed or lazy arm approach. This is often coupled with a low wrist ( a high wrist literally acts as a breaking system - it cuts off the weight of the arm). Finger weight is when we hold the arms not taught but poised and allow our fingers to take the strain. Often used in passagio in mozart/bach etc where a heavy sound would be out of place. The fingers are much lighter and therefore the weightiness of touch is reduced.

This is a HUGE topic and actually quite contreversial. Many of the terms used mean slightly different things to different groups of pianists so there will likely be slight differences of opinion on this one.

[counterpoint]

From a pragmatic point of view, "weight" of playing is just the illusion of weight. In the physical world, objects move different dependent of their weight. Grain of sand moves different as hailstones or petals. It's the difference of inertia.

But now, the physical weight of the arm doesn't change while we play. What changes is the illusion of weight (or weightlessness) of the arm. You can by illusion make your arm very heavy or very light. In reality it's not the arm that gets heavier or lighter, it's the muscles (of the upper arm) which work against the force of gravity in one case and which don't (or even work additional to gravity) in the other. So much to the topic of "relaxed playing": light playing is never relaxed playing, because the muscles of the upper arm must work against gravity to remove the weight of the arm.

I know, that's a very provocative statement to some people, but that's pure physics.

[pianowelsh]

qite so - its impossible and infact mostly undesireable to play with NO tension. We require measures of controlled tension to be able to make a variety of sounds on the instrument.  Just as we need tension to be able to sit up and to stand etc.  However the hand is lighter in physical terms than the arm due to the muscle weight in each. The muscles in the hand being much smaller and lighter. It you try playing with your wrist jack-knifed high and just with the movement of your fingers you will see actually there is VERY little weight in the hand (I dont advocate this - its just an experiment). much of what we consider finger weight is assisted by a poised or balanced arm. To make biger sounds we use the leverage of the upper arm and shoulder - even back muscles to increase the velocity and force with which the keys are depressed.

[danny elfboy]

qite so - its impossible and infact mostly undesireable to play with NO tension.

Playing with no tension is the only possible way to play efficiently and without destroying your pianist career quickly
I know this is just a matter of semantics but ALL misunderstandings depends on the limitation of language and wrong word use
What you're referring to is "contraction" NOT "tension"
Contraction is what give the "illusion" less weight and more weight because or more less inertia. It's impossible to contract efficiently if you're tensed
It's also impossible to play without contraction

But you're wrong about standing
Standing requires no kind of contraction whatsoever because the skeletal is self-supporting. This is very important because when we break the self-supporting skeletal alignment muscles conpensate by contracting

But the skeleton is self-supporting because the muscles must be free to contract for other tasks. When you break the skeletal alignment and conpensate with muscle contraction you'll always co-contract when doing whatever task
This is at the basis of almost all kind of tendon, ligaments and muscle injuries especially back pain, cervical pain, headcahe, low voice power and so on

The body is absolutey self-support and need no muscles to support itself, this leaves the muscles free to be used for all kind of activities and task. In order to contract a muscle must be "free" or "relaxed" ... because it's the only state that allows contraction as you can't contract an already contracted muscles

Tension is chronic long term co-contraction and is not relevant to body usage just to irreversible injuries

[jeremyjchilds]

I have undesrtood that arm-weight  is a key point in the relaxation technique. A note on the piano may be sounded by either exertion (of a muscle) or relaxation. But when rocking the weight from one finger to the next, there is something that must be "tense"

"tension' is such a loaded word, that I don't use it anymore. I use the word elasticity. As I see it, we are always playing with elasticity in our playing mechanism. One muscle may relax (wrist) and another may exert. (Finger)

I think that the key is to not tense or exert a pair of opposing muscles at the same time.

the idea of pure relaxation is not feasable, there must be some elasticity.

[danny elfboy]

I have undesrtood that arm-weight  is a key point in the relaxation technique. A note on the piano may be sounded by either exertion (of a muscle) or relaxation. But when rocking the weight from one finger to the next, there is something that must be "tense"

"tension' is such a loaded word, that I don't use it anymore. I use the word elasticity. As I see it, we are always playing with elasticity in our playing mechanism. One muscle may relax (wrist) and another may exert. (Finger)

I think that the key is to not tense or exert a pair of opposing muscles at the same time.

the idea of pure relaxation is not feasable, there must be some elasticity.

What people call "firmness" or "weight transferring" is "contraction"
Relaxation is the condition necessary to create a contraction (because you can't create contraction while contracting)

Contraction is the shortening of the muscle, hence "rigidity" or "stability"
Tension is contracting without releasing
Speed is the length of time it takes to release a contraction and recontract it again after the release
Laxness is releasing without contracting

The cycle of contraction and release, contraction and release, contraction and release and so on is also called "dynamic muscular activity".
Dynamic muscular activity is elasticity

[jeremyjchilds]

I like that explanation.

I think it is important to not just use words like "tension or relaxation" as overlying principles untill the student understands exactly what is happening.

[pianobabe_56]

So if I want to create a more sonorous, rich tone, how should I go about doing that? I've experimented using my back/abdomen/shoulder/arm muscles and pushing into the keys with more force; is this what is meant by "arm weight?"

[danny elfboy]

So if I want to create a more sonorous, rich tone, how should I go about doing that? I've experimented using my back/abdomen/shoulder/arm muscles and pushing into the keys with more force; is this what is meant by "arm weight?"

Raise your arm and wrist and hand in a relaxed manner

Let the arms/wrist and hand FALL on the keyboard

As soon as your fingers hit the keys CONTRACT the muscles of the arm

This is most powerful and load sound you can produce

Let's say you want a less loud sound

Raise your arm and wrist and hand in a relaxed manner

Let the arms/wrist and hand FALL on the keyboard

CONTRACT the muscles of the arm BEFORE hitting the keys with your fingers (the contraction will slow down the speed of the falling)

The delay between the contraction and the contact with keys generates the difference in volume and dynamic. Let the relaxed arm fall and don't contract till the moment of impact if you want a loud and powerful sound. Let the relaxed arm fall and contract before the moment of impact to decrease the loudness. Different delays create the difference between FFF FF F P PP PPP

[pianowelsh]

I didnt say that there was 'tension' involved in standing - although for someone with bad posture - there is. But 'to stand' from a sitting position - the point being muscles in motion.  It is impossible to transfer from one set of muscles to another with absolutely no 'tension'.  I find the terminology a bit pedantic, to contract your arm you tense a muscle..therefore most people would understand the concept of a reasonable ammount of tension being inevitable.  I think what you describe as tension I would describe as a 'locking' of the muscle, or overtensing.  But as I said before there are different schools regarding this all around the world and some schools who hold the same principles used different terminology to describe it. I think fundamentally we actually agree on the principles of motion but have different ways of expressing it.  I have to say though I would have a problem using words like contraction and elasticity with 5 and 6 year olds who do understand words like relaxed and stiff.  I am familiar with the terms but regard them as being helpfull really for the older - more advanced level of student who has some life experience.

[danny elfboy]

I think fundamentally we actually agree on the principles of motion but have different ways of expressing it.

You we do agree only you say "tense" a muscle and I say "contract" a muscle
I think the term I use is more correct for the simple reason that if you call contraction tension and contracting tensing what words are you going to use then to explain the huge difference between contraction and tension? 

I have to say though I would have a problem using words like contraction and elasticity with 5 and 6 year olds who do understand words like relaxed and stiff.

I would just explain to them the terms
It's not like there are words that children understand better and words that they don't
Whatever new word needs to be explained
I don't ascribe their problems with words to their age but to their being new to the language. I don't agree with making things easier or less complex with children because I don't think when they "will be considered" "old enough" to understand more complex words it will be as easy as replacing the old ones with the new ones; in fact nothing is more harder than replacing an internalized concept and term
I think this will result in the same lack of flexibility that children that have been first exposed to the "right hand" and just after month they're told there's a left hand and bass cleff too exhibit. Children even very very young ones who are immediately exposed to the grand stuff get a better foundaton and don't have to do the hard work of replacing concepts they had internalized for months or years

I don't know how to say "shortening of the muscle that create a firmness and balance that doesn't result in chronic shortening without release" in Czech language ... to know it I just need to be explained and taught

Young children don't know how to say "shortening of the muscle that create a firmness and balance that doesn't result in chronic shortening without release" in their language ... like me they need to be taught the correct terms and what they mean.
Sometimes it's less confusing to explain complex things to children (and they do understand complex things .. sometime way better than adults) than to confuse them with "simple concepts" that are ambiguous and disorientating

The problem with calling contraction tension is that you don't know what term to use to mean "tension" ... so you have several completely different physical state and just two terms to define them. That would confuse me too

[timothy42b]

The problem with calling contraction tension is that you don't know what term to use to mean "tension" ... so you have several completely different physical state and just two terms to define them. That would confuse me too

I think you are correct that terminology causes misunderstanding, but your choice does not seem to add clarity.

Movement cannot occur without force across a joint.  Force is caused by a muscle shortening or attempting to shorten.  Muscles are one directional, they can only contract.  When they are no longer contracting actively, other muscles can pull them longer again. 

The way the body is built most muscle groups come in pairs - one to push and one to pull. 

When athletes talk about relaxation, they know muscles must exert force on the joint to cause motion.  They have a common understanding that the pushing muscles, for example, must contract to cause the motion, possibly with extreme force.  Their understanding is that relaxation means you are careful to use only the pushing muscles and not the pulling muscles for that motion.  The athletic definition of tension is to accidentally activate muscles that do not assist the motion and may in fact impede it.  For example, when shooting a basketball the triceps muscles straighten the arm.  The biceps muscles must remain passive. 

Perhaps this view will work for piano. 

[loops]

Raise your arm and wrist and hand in a relaxed manner

Let the arms/wrist and hand FALL on the keyboard

As soon as your fingers hit the keys CONTRACT the muscles of the arm

This is most powerful and load sound you can produce

Let's say you want a less loud sound

Raise your arm and wrist and hand in a relaxed manner

Let the arms/wrist and hand FALL on the keyboard

CONTRACT the muscles of the arm BEFORE hitting the keys with your fingers (the contraction will slow down the speed of the falling)

The delay between the contraction and the contact with keys generates the difference in volume and dynamic. Let the relaxed arm fall and don't contract till the moment of impact if you want a loud and powerful sound. Let the relaxed arm fall and contract before the moment of impact to decrease the loudness. Different delays create the difference between FFF FF F P PP PPP

There are TWO sets of muscles that can contract in the arm and they will have a different effect.
The ones "on top of the arm" (when arm is positioned as about to hit the keys), if they contract, will brake
the fall of the arm and lessen the sound. But the ones on the "underside" of the arm, if they contract,
will accelerate the fall and increase the sound.

"Tension" is where *both* sets are contracting at the same time, leading to the obvious problems of stiffness, muscular exhaustion and poor quality sound.

Cheers

[danny elfboy]

Their understanding is that relaxation means you are careful to use only the pushing muscles and not the pulling muscles for that motion.

Doesn't it make more sense to call that "contraction" while the opposite "co-contraction"

Relaxation comes from the verb "release" as such it seems to make sense to call the "release" of whatever contraction "relaxation"

The athletic definition of tension is to accidentally activate muscles that do not assist the motion and may in fact impede it. For example, when shooting a basketball the triceps muscles straighten the arm.  The biceps muscles must remain passive.

 

Yes. But using the terminology you propose you again lack a term for "no contraction at all" Calling the shortening of a muscle "contraction" the lenghtening of a muscle "relexation" (from releasing) the activation of two opposite pair of muscle "co-contraction" and a contraction that never relase "tension" seems to fill the lacks and cover all conditions

Also tension can result from just contracting the right muscle without never releasing them even if the opposite set of muscle doesn't get on the way. That's because a single contraction can't be maintained indefinitely and the muscles need to refresh by being released/lengthened before a new contraction occurs. So tension is not only "co-contraction" but also "mono-contraction" as long as a release never occurs

[pianobabe_56]

Raise your arm and wrist and hand in a relaxed manner

Let the arms/wrist and hand FALL on the keyboard

As soon as your fingers hit the keys CONTRACT the muscles of the arm

This is most powerful and load sound you can produce

Let's say you want a less loud sound

Raise your arm and wrist and hand in a relaxed manner

Let the arms/wrist and hand FALL on the keyboard

CONTRACT the muscles of the arm BEFORE hitting the keys with your fingers (the contraction will slow down the speed of the falling)

The delay between the contraction and the contact with keys generates the difference in volume and dynamic. Let the relaxed arm fall and don't contract till the moment of impact if you want a loud and powerful sound. Let the relaxed arm fall and contract before the moment of impact to decrease the loudness. Different delays create the difference between FFF FF F P PP PPP

Whether or not the terminology is correct, this explanation worked well for me. Thank you! Keep it up, by all means!

[a-sharp]

Standing requires no kind of contraction whatsoever because the skeletal is self-supporting.

I hate to contradict, but, this is not accurate. There is a position of proper posture, whereby a minimum of effort is required to stand, but our bodies require our muscles in order to stand up. To a very large degree we are not conscious of this, but it's absolutely true. Dancers, however, are accutely aware of this fact - and which muscles are supporting the body at which times. If we had zero tension in the body, we would be in a lump on the floor.

I have to agree with pianowelsh -

its impossible and infact mostly undesireable to play with NO tension.

...though I agree that it IS tension in a counter-productive area or way that is often the problem... and at least, could prevent improvement, at worst, cause injury. This is the challenge of playing the piano [and all other athletes] though, I think - striking that perfect balance between the 2 ...

[danny elfboy]

I hate to contradict, but, this is not accurate. There is a position of proper posture, whereby a minimum of effort is required to stand, but our bodies require our muscles in order to stand up. To a very large degree we are not conscious of this, but it's absolutely true. Dancers, however, are accutely aware of this fact - and which muscles are supporting the body at which times. If we had zero tension in the body, we would be in a lump on the floor.

Tension is not contraction, that's the problem of what pianowelsh said and the misunderstanding with the whole thread. Tension is absolutely useless and had no role except being an ab-use of the body. Although from a etimological point of view tension may be considered a form of contraction linguistically it means a chronic condition where muscles are not used efficiently. An analogy I often make is that if contraction is filling a bottle with water and release is emptying the bottle of its water TENSION is like trying to fill with water an already full bottle without first emptying it on its content

[a-sharp]

Perhaps - a mis-use of terms ... but to say tension is absolutely useless is going a little too far. If nothing else, tension serves to communicate a message to our bodies ... and there for has a very important role in that sense.

My point was that our skeletons are not at all self-supporting. If they were, we would be able to stand straight from the womb.

linguistically it means a chronic condition where muscles are not used efficiently.

"linguistically," it doesn't really have anything to do with efficiency or non-efficiency .... Miriam-Webster says:

1 a : the act or action of stretching or the condition or degree of being stretched to stiffness : TAUTNESS b : STRESS 1b
2 a : either of two balancing forces causing or tending to cause extension b : the stress resulting from the elongation of an elastic body
3 a : inner striving, unrest, or imbalance often with physiological indication of emotion b : a state of latent hostility or opposition between individuals or groups c : a balance maintained in an artistic work between opposing forces or elements
4 : a device to produce a desired tension (as in a loom)

....

As I speak of tension in this sense, it was more like definition 3-c. And contraction might possibly be a better term...

The water bottle analogy is maybe better to illustrate a different concept perhaps.

[danny elfboy]

Perhaps - a mis-use of terms ... but to say tension is absolutely useless is going a little too far.

Tension with the meaning you're expressing if not useless
Tension with the meaning I'm expressing is not only useless but only harmful

As you see it's a just a problem of meanings of semantics but we agree
You're probably right that even the true ethimological meaning of tension is not the one I give to it. But if that were the case we would be left with the problem of not having a proper name for the "tension" I'm talking about

But actually tension means both what you mean but also popularly and medically it also means what I mean: accumulation of stress and fatigue without regeneration or emptying

What you call tension I call contraction but it's also true that you can have crontraction, tension (young meaning) tension (my meaning)
To make sure this time it will be clear: tension (your meaning) is a benign aspect of every movement requiring contraction, tension (my meaning) is a malignant accumulation of strain and fatigue caused by uneccesary maintenance of muscle contraction when it is not longer needed for that task, or a an accumulation of co-contracted stimulus.
Both meaning are correct because both are used in relation to the word "tension"

[clavicembalisticum]

First of all, I agree with most of what danny elf has posted elsewhere about the subject and in this particular post. Being a new member here it is kind of difficult to say if I am in agreement with everything he says, but he does have his strong points in most of his posts. They are well done.

I would like to see more use of the terms isotonic, isometric, eccentric and concentric contractions. The use of these terms waives the need for the use of the word "tension" without doubt. It also relates to the real differences when it comes to avoiding "injuring" yourself with the one or the other way.

There is also an issue between type I and type II muscle fiber ratio within the muscles but I do not want to start a fire here, as I said I am fairly new in the forum.

I also think that the word "graded" touch is more appropriate than "weighted" touch. Touching the keys in different positions produces different sound effects as well. "Graded" is somewhat more "permissive" than "weighted" since "weighted" implies that everything lies in the weight as a physical entity. By itself, "weight" is a term that is void of the most important aspect of the muscle effector system:

Forces are vectors.

[a-sharp]

Going back to piano_babe's original question....

Some of the words we use are used as a form of imagery ... I think, in a sense, it may sort of mean 'pushing harder,' but, I think [I'm going out on a limb here], that if you are after a louder, yet, fuller [and not harsh] sound, it has more thant just to do with how hard you "push" ... I believe it is a complete movement, from approach to the release of the keys. Frankly, I'm not quite sure how to describe it in words [especially in a way that won't cause more confusion] - it is something better demonstrated. I know there has been some debate as to whether or not all this makes a different sound or not - but I am on the team that believes is does [see it in action, closed my eyes and heard the difference]. Anyway - what does your teacher say about it??