Can a single person survive just teaching piano as a career?

[thalberg]

Hi All,

Please help.....

I'm wondering if there is ANYONE here who is single, and who survives just on income from teaching piano lessons. 

I have a doctorate in piano performance from the Cleveland Institute of Music, and I have been wondering if I could open a piano studio and live on the income.  I have interviewed 2 career piano teachers.  Both are married and therefore have two incomes, and both get health benefits from their spouses' jobs. 

They told me I could plan to make maybe 40K or so. But even if I made 50 or 60, paying my own benefits would run me 7,000 a year.  I would need a place to teach--probably a small house, and I wonder if I could pay a mortgage on this salary.  A small house around here would have a mortgage payment of 1500 a month.

I'm great with kids and great at teaching--I feel I could benefit society as a piano teacher.  But I want to know if financially this is even possible.

[zheer]

  I dont think it is as simple as you make it sound. Start teaching and BAM 40K, it will take years to have enough students to earn 40K, infact that might never happen. However a doctorate in performance is what you need to start teaching in secondary school as a music teacher or in college as a piano teacher. Teachers at school earn 25k after a number of years and college teacher a little more, and i gess thats a very good start.

[timestreason]

When I was taking lessons, my piano teacher was an old widow. She had about 20 students, and we paid about 50 dollars a month. She taught in her house (which wasn't very big, but it wasn't tiny, either), AND her son and his family were constantly asking for money (which she gave). She lived pretty decently, actually, and never complained about the lack of money or anything. $50 dollars is very cheap, especially since lessons were 45 minutes (I often stayed for past an hour, since no one was after me, usually) and most teachers around here go for $75 a month on up.

So yeah, it's VERY possible for a single person to survive a career of teaching, depending on how much you charge, where you live, and how much living expenses are.

[Bob]

The two things I keep hearing are...
It depends on your area geographically.
It depends on your credentials.


And then it takes some time, maybe a year, to build up a studio.

[thalberg]

Thanks for your replies, keep them coming.

Is there anyone here who is single and does this and lives on it?

[pizno]

I am not single so am not in your situation, but some very good piano teaching friends are in your exact situation.  Both are single women, both support themselves.  One of them has about 50 students (she teaches another instrument as well, and not all of her students come every week).  She was able to buy a house, but does not have a great piano.  I think she does OK - but it is hard especially with having to pay for insurance.  But, she does it.  The other one also has a large studio, has a condo and a lovely new grand.  I know it's hard for her to pay for the insurance, but both of these women are successful and supporting themselves.

My advice?  Don't teach 30 minute lessons.  Only teach 45 or 1 hour, and charge plenty.  Get into the homeschool group.  Somehow get known as the 'hot' teacher (high rates might help this) that everyone wants.  And be willing to be hungry for a while.

Pizno

[pianistimo]

with a doctorate, i'd imagine you have the brains to do pretty much anything you set your mind to.  maybe somekind of mentor that could help you get into real-estate.  like buy and fix-up and buy and fix-up.  that could be your side income - and provide a location to teach from. 

also, i think many pianists tend to be artistic.  try your hand at some new things and see if you have a talent for it also!  never hurts to try several things.

for me (with only a bachelors and attempting the master's degree) i have not made a liveable income.  but, i have not tried to since i have three children.  what i found when working the most was alternating between three jobs:  teaching piano, tutoring reading, and a sewing business.  between all three - life was MUCH better than just one or just the other.  for instance, you have summer vacations to deal with (people gone for at least two months).

something else that popped into my head was tax-preparation jobs.  around tax-time, everyone wants help.  good way to earn some money before summertime.  also, the credit counseling bureaus always need people to counsel people out of debt.  that's takes kindness and patience, i'm sure, and teaching skills.

[dmk]

Yep

My first teacher is single and has been a piano teacher for some 40 years.  I hope this gives you some hope!!

She has a couple if houses with no mortgages and two absolutely cracking Grand Pianos.

It can certainly be done, especially if you teach during the day (ie uni students or even high school kids if your studio is nearby).

If you are a good teacher I don't think its out of the question.  If you set up a studio in your own house, or even apartment, I suppose you don't need to buy a seperate house.  I guess its difficult to teach late in an apartment though.

Good luck!!!!

dmk

[penguinlover]

Contact jpianoflorida.  I think he's single.  He has his own studio outside his house, and teaching piano is his only business.  At least that's what I gleaned from his previous posts.  He hasn't been on in a while though.  My situation is so different than yours, so I can only imagine what it would be like to only teach piano.  What a dream!  Anyway, as an older adult with grown children, it's time to work on that dream!

[Bob]

From what I understand, it's possible.  But I see a big risk in starting out -- the first few years.

I would expect to teach at least 50-60 students a week, charge at least $30 an hour (or half hour?), get a business license and check zoning so you can teach where ever you will teach out of, figure out how to pay all the taxes correctly, etc.  And then most teaching is done during the evenings.  And most students are beginners/intermediate -- because there are more of those students, that's where the money is.

The biggest concerns I have are where to teach, where to get that piano (a decent one), and how to live while building up a studio.

The indepedent teachers I know are usually involved in other things.  Performance of course, for themselves and to get more teaching business.  Those work well together.  And some do something totally unrelated, like bookkeeping -- but that can provide the steady income to let a person survive while they are getting set up.

There are more threads on this site about it.

If you're by Cleveland, that city is big enough.  It's got the syphony.  You know they are supporting their arts and the surrounding area will have plenty of students looking for a teacher.

Another concern I have is the competition though too.  What if a few other teachers started up and take your business away?


I'm curious about it too.  Please let us know how it goes.

[cora]

If you set up near a school, you can start teaching at about 3:15 and go to 9:00 p.m. on weekdays. But don't forget, not many students want Friday nights. As for Saturday, you might be able to fill the day. Most teachers do not teach during the summer, or they teach on a reduced schedule.

If you teach during the day, you will likely have mostly adults at that time. You may find them difficult to teach because often they just want a friend, and don't practice.

It takes quite a while to build a reputation. The only shortcuts I've seen are picking up all the students of a teacher that is moving, or joining a baptist/evangelical church and getting a very good reference from the church.

In my own experience, it's difficult to own a house. You will likely have to develop a reputation of taking only serious students. Otherwise, you will be like the rest of us, catering to a broad public. Your doctorate in music may or may not make much difference to you in terms of getting business. Many people do not want the best teacher that money can buy. They want a nice, neighbourly person who's close by and not too expensive. You can't go too high if this is your clientele.

Hope this helps.

[thalberg]

Thanks everyone!  This is really great info....

Anyone else?

[radmila]

Try to diversify so yoo don't get bored of so many students that you will have to teach. Try to find a part time job in a College (if possible ) and maybe you can teach Class piano.  Try maybe a church job (if you don't mind going to church). I replaced my friends several times when they travelled and it is easy money - especially if you are good sightreader. The only problem you have to wake up early on Sunday! (I hate that) In Phoenix, where I live, usually they pay 800$ a month for Wednesday and Sunday rehersal and service. Try doing some accompanying or play in weddings from time to time. You need these kind of gigs to help you over the summer when the students go to vacation and don't take lessons.
In Practical Piano Pedagogy(MArtha Baker-Jordan) there is a chapter on studio bussines and some calculations for making money. Take a look if you have time.
ANd maybe if you get certified for Kindermusik or Music Together you can fill your morning with calsses with preschool kids. Why not?

Everybody says teaching your students an extra group class is a good way of making more money.

As for buying a house, I would avoid that at the beginning and maybe find some place to rent a studio ( a music store or some private music school). Once you have a good number of students in your studio then think about a new house (and a new mortgage).

I have a DMA degree and unfortunately not a full time job. Even if there is an openning for one it is very competitive. So, I am trying to get through with what I do. But I have a husband and my insurance goes trough him so I don't know how much that will take from your pocket.
Good luck!

[cmg]

Thalberg,

As you've already undoubtedly noticed, there's absolutely terrific advice for you here.

I have three friends, all DMAs, who've been in your boat, and now they're all single (divorce, etc.) but have thriving teaching practices.

The common theme with them has been diversification, particularly in the first few years.  Church choirs, community colleges, etc., anyplace to get your name around and squeeze out a buck.  You should try to get cozy with a niche community, too.  One friend, a Cuban-American in Miami, has cultivated the Cuban/Latino community down there.  He's very successful.

I have my own business (not teaching) and it took me five years to get it off the ground.  I wasn't starving in the early years, by any means, but I had to do some fancy footwork and real marketing.  I really think that "five-year" goal is pretty common, so don't be disappointed with the first few years.   They can be a little lean, but not awful by any means.  Oh, and by "marketing" I mean networking with other teachers in institutional settings and otherwise.  Have cards made and get them out there.  A few recitals would help too.  As a high schooler, that's how I found a terrific teacher in my little, former corner of the world.

Working for yourself is wonderful in many, many ways.  Insurance is a problem, of course.  Check out the Freelancers Union for reasonable group insurance.  I got lucky with an Alumni group plan through my alma mater, NYU.  Such plans are no longer available in NYS, but may be in yours.  Check out your alma mater's alumni association.

Good luck!  You have to be very creative in building your own business, but it's interesting how things fall into your lap that you could never predict.   All lot of it is improvised, but, as they say, if there's a will, there's definitely a way.

[jeremyjchilds]

I live in Canada,

I began teaching a number of years ago, and work with 40-45 students. (charging $35\hr) I found that this simply wasn't enough money for the lifeslyle I wanted, so I began tuning in the mornings.  (Learning to tune is suprisingly difficult off the bat though...)

I am happy with my current income (tuning is roughly double the hourly earning as teaching)

So to answer your question, no, teaching is not enough.  I guess that teaching a decent roster is roughly equivelant to a good union civil servant position (School teacher) so ask yourself if that is enough for you! (in my case, the lack of benifits is offset by the minimal taxes that I pay)

[pianowelsh]

Im single. I teach piano as my ONLY source of income and I live in city (expensive).  I survive!!  I dont live extravagently really as I dont teach anything like the projected 50 - 60 students some suggest is possible. I travel to some..some run over as they like to show me their knitting or their cat etc.  I do play for several church meetings per week....ALL unpaid.  I dont really teach saturday's unless exceptional circumstances and sunday is occupied with church activities..9 am - 11pm - so OUT. Miraculously I havent starved and ive never been late with a bill payment.  Be encouraged Thal it IS possible. BUT marrying a GP or lawyer probably wouldnt hurt you.  PS I teach from where I live (not sep studio) and I have a new U3 Yamaha, deccent enough piano and means I can practice when all students gone without waking all the neighbours!
 

[cora]

It's so important that everybody marry a lawyer, it's a wonder we don't encourage 50% of people to become lawyers.javascript:void(0);

[mattgreenecomposer]

yes it is possible..because I have done it for about 5 years.
Now, I  have extra income from occasional gigs and I have a recording studio which is a plus in the $$$ factor, and I compose non-stop.  (you can see at my website)
Try not to limit yourself to only to teaching.  Certainly if you have a Doctorate you can do other things in music as well.  (gigging, arranging, accompanying) These will help you in the $ factor.
 good luck!  Think positive.

[thalberg]

Wow, this is awesome to have found two single people who survive on teaching.  I'm so glad you're out there.

But I 'm hearing what your'e saying about diversifying.  It makes a lot of sense.

[a-sharp]

Thal ~

Thank you for asking this - and it is good to read some of the responses. I am counting on it - also a returning student as I had not completed my degree [that I had started - also performance]. I teach at home, and also 1 day/week at a school - it's less money/hr at home, but steady and they handle all the paperwork etc and just pay me.

The diversifying aspect is a good point - and there is something to be said about doing what you love - quality of life, if it doesn't mean we're insanely rich monetarily [or, as stated married to a dr. or lawyer ... ]

[ingagroznaya]

Yes, Thalberg, it's very possible. But as someone who's single and generally happy with my work/income, I would like to suggest - get married first. You will be benefiting the society, society will not have any time to benefit you once you'll start teaching. You will have such a whacky hours of work, where money will pile up.
Pile of money is not pile of women.

[a-sharp]

  so confused... maybe it's just me

?

[tds]

Pile of money is not pile of women.

i been told that its the pile of money that makes the pile of women. 

[a-sharp]

I've never heard that - but I suppose if I saw a pile of money, I would fall into it, so many we might 'gravitate' to the pile of money ... ?

Anyway - BTDT - and don't wish to go there again! [married]

[ingagroznaya]

tds, you've been told wrong.
a-sharp,
1) I think teaching piano privately can be very rewarding, reasonably well paid career, which at some point will have a tremendous impact on your social life.
2) BTDT too. Perhaps you need more time to recover.

Now all of you, future piano teachers, go out and help me out with "October", please. ( I think I overworked ).

[a-sharp]

No kidding!

Geesh - I'll say this - teaching, AND, being a music major, AND having a child puts a HUGE damper on your social life, LOL!  No time to look for husbands [though, I'm always searching for that pile o' money!!] 

[tds]

tds, you've been told wrong.

ahh, thats a relief coz i dont want a pile of women in my house. bye, luv.

[pianowolfi]

Hi All,

Please help.....

I'm wondering if there is ANYONE here who is single, and who survives just on income from teaching piano lessons. 

I have a doctorate in piano performance from the Cleveland Institute of Music, and I have been wondering if I could open a piano studio and live on the income.  I have interviewed 2 career piano teachers.  Both are married and therefore have two incomes, and both get health benefits from their spouses' jobs. 

They told me I could plan to make maybe 40K or so. But even if I made 50 or 60, paying my own benefits would run me 7,000 a year.  I would need a place to teach--probably a small house, and I wonder if I could pay a mortgage on this salary.  A small house around here would have a mortgage payment of 1500 a month.

I'm great with kids and great at teaching--I feel I could benefit society as a piano teacher.  But I want to know if financially this is even possible.

Well okay back to topic. This is actually a subject to me since I got in the situation to be single again since a couple of weeks.  Well I guess it will turn out if it's possible. I very much hope so.  As it is now, there is not so much of a change since we had separate finances in our marriage anyway. If it stays as it is, having enough students, it will be fine and I will even have enough income for some extras.  But there are definitely also things that I just can forget about, like buying a house or so. If you don't inherit a lot of money or have some other sources, or you develop into a teaching star with a waiting list of 50 students things like that are just out of reach.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is all about your mindset. If you are thinking that being a music teacher can earn you as much as a doctor or lawyer then you will get that result. If you dream of opening a music school then what are you doing about it?

Being a music teacher is like running your own business. In fact being a music teacher is a very safe business because there are very little costs for you, you simply provide a service and don't have to set up a store and pay rent. Your first step should be growing and nurturing your student network this is the most difficult part that most teachers stagnate on.

I started with only 2 per week in my first week of every teaching music (with no univeristy degrees or teaching qualifications at all), which by the end of the first year was at about 20 or so and through constant advertising and years of my own solo performances which let my name be known in the musical networks I reach my maximum load of 40ish a week. You let your name be known by providing exceptional services to your students. You have to be serious about improve your students not just forgetting about them when they leave the lesson with you. I have many documents on each student so I know exactly where they are going and how they are progressing.

Make your students your sole interest and your commitment to them will show in their accelerated results. From word of mouth then your students will spread your name. I have one student who has reffered me to more than 5 other students. This provoked me in thinking (although I never had the need to do it) if I offered students a discount in their tuition fees if they reffered to me some students I could accelerate my musical network and earn more money. Some people think this devalues your teaching efforts but it isn't the case, teaching music is a business afterall and if you don't notice your choices to expand you are forgoing opportunities.

I find I cannot teach more than 40 a week, because personally I don't like to work on the weekends and I like to have time and energy to teach myself piano as well. So as a music teacher teaching private students you will eventually peak to a maximum student capacity. We have to be confident with the prices we charge, I have had many people say to me "that's expensive" and try to screw me down, I will not budge unless the student is gifted AND the family don't have as much disposable income as most. You get what you pay for and I am confident when I tell them I teach better than most teachers.

You get this confidence by seeing results from ALL your students. And by developing your own teaching methods through teaching practice with your students. Who says you cannot start by charging $100 an hour for a lesson? You can do that by all means, but you have to give reason for it, what do you have to offer thats so special? Can prospective students be certain that your teaching method will give them accelerated results?

Ask yourself, if you teach better than anyone else what are you going to do about it? This is not being arrogant, it is inspiring you to take action with your musical gift. If you are a mediocre teacher then you simply reach a student limit and stagnate there. Good teachers have vision, they know what they want and where they want to go, they don't leave things to chance. Some end up teaching at universities, some create private schools and musical circles with the large music network that they develop over the years. I know of one musician up in Northern Australia (very isoliated) who brings together the entire community with musical concerts, plays, musicals etc. Making people purchase a set number of tickets before the year begins, then if they turn up or not it doens't matter. No one in the major cities would know about it, but everyone in that little town does and it does so well to bring the community together.

An idea of a music school must provide for the entire community. I see a need for a lot of things which I have seen overseas but have not seen here in Australia. What they are exactly might not interest you because it might not be a need in your country but I believe opening a music school should not only centre in on teaching music. It should be a place where the community can come together to share musical ideas and observe music being created. Also prodiving quality instruments for people to play on. The reality is that many students studying music at university practice on crap pianos and would love the chance to play on good instruments. Wouldn't many music students love to record an audition on a 9ft Steinway with professional recording tools?

Then I have the question, how do I get these pianos? Or how do you get the money to start up a music school in the first place? Well I have my own journey in that respect but I would say that support from other people who share the same vision as me has been the most helpful. There are people out there with a lot more money than myself who are willing to invest in a community program espcially focused in on music. You might not earn as much money as you would if you did everything out of your own pocket (but most people do not have that choice) but you have your school and you earn more money that you would if it was all left in your head. There is a long complicated journey in creating a music school and you have to live that journey every day, not just keep it in your head and imagine it now and then. There is a musical program for the disabled which runs in my home town here, now this might be something you could work in, providing musical tuition for a particular niche of the commuinity. This then grows into whatever you want, there are many starting places, but the best most honorable way to go about it is to offer a valuable service to your community and make your city/town a better place.

Too many people think about the $ instead of the service and change to the community. If you have these things in your head then the $ really doens't matter. You do not need a lot in your life anyway, you always will have enough. However those who are $ minded they will often get too scared to start their projects. How many people do you think have not taken that step of action on a business idea simply because the unknowns scare them too much and the risk of losing $ petrifies them. The real risk in life is to take no risk, always think about that. I personally do not get worked up about the $ I earn, so long I can pay my bills and save some money for unexpected BIG costs that might happen. I am too busy thinking about what to do next instead of caring about $. Money is a product of your efforts, you don't base your efforts on the $. It is like trying to lose weight, if you want to lose weight simply to see the size of your belly dissapear you will never lose weight. If you do it because you want to live more healthy then you will lose weight. If you try to make a music school to make $ the you will never make it, but if you do it for a community reason then you will make the $. But you must be passionate and have an unbreakable focus on what you want to provide. It has to totally excite you and make you want to do it every day. You need a lot of self motivation thats for sure you simply will not suceed otherwise.

You must do everything in steps. I personally am at the stage where I am gathering all the high quality pianos. I have a Yamaha C5, a very solid instrument, a Bechstein which is nice and a Steinway 9ft Model D which is only 14 years old. I have a dedicated piano music lover who invests in these pianos, he wants to get at least 2 every year until we have 10 instruemnts. There are lots of things we can do with these instruments before we actually house them in a school, but I'll be writing forever talking about every detail.

I dream of getting at least one instrument of every good make of piano, but of course you must plan for it, not everything falls into your lap you make steps towards your dream. Finding the right priced piano is a journey in itself! I am constantly searching for the right venue and have been for years. I have seen so many good opportunities, like an entire primary school, about 30 classrooms, huge church ovals etc for only $1.2 Million AUS. This sounds like a lot but it isn't if you have investors on your side. I decided not to go for it because of the amount of renovation etc, it also seems to me TOO big to start a music school with. BUt people say YOU GOT LUCKY or you where so fortunate to find this deal, it isn't so. It is a product of years of searching and inspired thought. To make a big difference it doens't really matter what degree or qualifications on a piece of paper you hold, just a stubborn, passionate, relentless desire to achieve a dream.

[rc]

Another good post LIW!

Those're the same business principles I've learned from my Dad, and my own firsthand experience.  Excellent service is the best job security, word of mouth is the best marketing, if someone's trying to bid down for a lower price to let 'em go to the cheap guys...  There's also something to be said about being good with people, if we treat the clients right, they'll treat us right.

[pianistimo]

learning how to invest is probably something many (at least women) don't do, either.  of course, now there is capital gains of 40% if you sell before 5 years are up.  1 year is considered 'long term' - and you can sell after that - but there's no point to it.  so, i guess in USA you ahve to find stock that hopefully will last over a five year period.  i think after five years it is at 8-9% tax isn't it (or is it 15%).  anyways - you pay a lot less.

real-estate, cars, art dealing, etc.  all takes training.  but, piano teachers DO have extra time to do something besides teaching piano.  taking a computer class.  whatever.  i think seeing a dream, like lostinidlewonder says, is also finding  a mentor to work you through the actualities of making the dream possible.  money does help. 

my other dream was having children.  i had to sacrifice the short-term long days of practice - for an extended amount of time that was sort of up and down practice-wise.  but, when the last child is in school full time - then i have more time again to do music professionally.  i don't regret having two dreams.  all the days of doing without piano tunings, a grand piano, whatever - is a moot point now because i've learned to work.  i think when you work at anything - the dream quickly becomes a reality.  but, you ahve to work smart and not let tax situations or medical situations get you down.

as others have suggested - it is much better in the usa to work for a college or school because they will pay your social security taxes (big one) and medical/dental insurance.  you can't really function if all your money goes to the dentist or the doctor.  although, i think i recently heard or read on here of an insurance company that will take single self-employed people and batch them together with others to get a group rate.  in terms of buying a house - i think that all you have to do is have a down payment and be able to show that you are able to make the monthly payments.  keeping a credit record good will increase your chances of the best interest rate.  owning a home can suck a lot of money out of you though.  for one thing - you have property taxes, school taxes, and taxes which aren't part of your mortgage as well as maintaining a lawn (if you ahve one), roof, water system, etc.  i suppose that talking to a financial advisor is the best thing that one can really do.  if you have up-to-date advise - then you follow it over a long period of time to gain the best advantage.

for us - buying fairly new homes has been the key to not losing a lot of money.  and, reselling when the time is right.  if you buy an older home and have to fix it up too much - then you are losing money.  but, if you are investment savvy - there are homes that aren't that old (don't have water damage or some kind of foundational damage) and have good access.  that is the first thing i look for now.  you see some people in pennsylvania BACKING out of the driveway onto full traffic roads.  yuk.  if the home doesn't have good access - i'd make sure that it's ok with the city to put in a rounded driveway.  first good selling feature is getting in and out.  and, the angle of the driveway should be above the road and not below.

i think it's fairly idiotic to buy below a main road.  all the drainage water is going to go down.  the rivers are going to get high occasionally.  much better to buy on or near a hill (that won't collapse - like in california) - but not too high on a hill - otherwise you have to deal with other problems.

foundations are so important.  i think anyone who wants to be a homeowner should start looking at what they particularly are looking for in a foundation of a home and stick to it.  if you want 8 foot basement.  stick to that.  it's extra square footage that you have that others might not - to store your stuff in the winter.  sometimes it's tempting to just walk into a house and only look at the first level.  the foundation is what is key.  if there are parts of the floor in the house that are not level - what's the point of the house staying together.  the second thing i would do is take a level to each part of the home (unless it has wierd carpet) and look at how level the floors are.  if they are not level - you are going to be frustrated.

then, i would look at windows.  what kind of windows are they using.  are they sealed tightly or do they have holes and cracks.  what will it cost to put in windows/doors throughout.  these things make the heating bill much less.  i've notice around some basements that is the area where the concrete is the weakest.  cracks, etc. form around window corners.  are they patchable cracks or are they wide?  if you have water leakage to a basement - it's not good. 

people here in pa also like to have walk-out basements.  in alaska - i don't think anyone wants them because of the insulating factor.  (losing heat at the door).  maybe it depends on where you live and the temperatures as to what you want to do with this area.

to work up enough money for a down payment - you have to be able to save what you are currently paying.  a friend of mine (single woman, btw) decided the way that she would do it - is to do housesitting.  she moved two or three times in one year - house sitting for various people.  she obtained enough money to get a sizeable down payment (very smart - instead of a small downpayment) and decent monthly payments.  also, she found a home that suited her lifestyle and was close to areas of shopping and all - so the gas expenses weren't terrible.   

[pianistimo]

make sure you have up-to-date appliances when you purchase.   often, sellers will add these to add incentive to the purchase.  ask for new water heater definately.  new oven/stove.  new dishwasher.  if they are energy efficient - you will have a tax savings, too.  if owner moves out of state  - you can buy fairly new refrigerator, washer/dryer - if you ask about it.  sometimes you can bargain on them,too, if the market is poor. 

basically, the key to smart buying is not to be easy.  'this is beautiful.  i want this house.'  NO.  you go through and find everything that is not to your satifaction and use it for leverage to get everything up to par.  if the water heater is old - you can say - this could be a fire hazard.  if the vents are not cleaned - make them pay to clean the venting system.  you can explain that you have breathing problems without clean air (my husband actually does).  who wants to pay all these things after buying the house? 

another thing about older homes is electrical problems.  make sure all the electrical is up-to-code.  bring in an electrician and make sure everything works properly.  don't want to find out about that later!

[lagin]

This is an idea of what I would do if I were you.  (Haven't read all the posts, so this might have already been done).

Mortgage = 1,500/month 
Food =         300/month
Gas/repairs on car = 300/month
Clothes/entertainment = 200/month
Savings/emergency fund/piano tuning = 100/month
(I'm assuming you don't have any debt or credit card payments and that you own your car)

Total = 2,400/month  That's 600 dollars a week, that's 100 dollars a day with Sundays off.  If you charge 40 dollars an hour (which is probably very cheap, but we'll do worse case scenario here), then you need to teach 2 1/2 hours a day.  That's 5 students a day at 1/2 hour each, or 30 students.

BUT, if I were you this is what I would do:

Rent (or mortgage) no more than 800/month (I would live in a dump to avoid debt and the stress of needing that many students.  You can fix it up yourself.  My family did with our first house, and it was a major dump!).
Food equals 200/month.  You can live without chips and other expensive junk.
Gas = 100/month  If you live in town and have the students coming to your home, you can take the bus and probably don't need to go out much anyways
Clothes (2nd hand kills no one, that's pretty much 90% of what I own.  Go Value Village!)/ Entertainment (read a book, choose between t.v. or internet)/ Piano tunings (only once or twice a year anyways) = 100/month

Now we have $1,200 a month instead of $2,400.  It all depends on what sort of life style you want to have.  Then let's charge 30/hour which is probably more realistic for your credentials.  Then you just need 300/week which means 10 hours of teaching per week or 2 hours a day Monday through Friday, so 20 students at 1/2 hour lessons. 

Then it's very doable.  These are just random figures and expenses will be different for everyone.  There are also health care expenses as well depending on where you live.  It also depends on how much debt you have, or how much you want to save each week.  Decide whether renting or paying a mortgage is cheaper for where you are. 

[tds]

lagin, did you finally marry husky? just curious.

[cora]

Thank you Lostinidlewonder. You really helped me today.

[cjp_piano]

Yes

I am single and make a living as a private piano teacher, and I live in a fairly large metropolitan area. I have a BM and MM.  I currently have around 35 students per week.  I also accompany my church choir and play for Sunday's service (totals 3 hours a week) which adds around $125 a week.   But other than that, all my income comes from teaching.

It's actually very possible to do this.  As a member of MTNA that goes to all the national and state conferences, I've met MANY single people who make a decent living as a piano teacher. 

You can do it!   

[andric_s]

Yes indeed.  I charge $30/hour for adults and $25/half-hour for kids.  I live modestly, but it seems like more money than I've ever made before.  I'm young and healthy, so it works for me now.  As I get more experienced as a teacher and as a musician (I'll always be hungry to learn new music), I intend to raise my rates, so that by the time I'm an old man I'll hopefully be making alot more.

I know teachers who charge $50 or $60 an hour and who have full schedules.  That sounds like a fortune to me.  I know of one woman who does group lessons.
 

[cjp_piano]

Yes indeed.  I charge $30/hour for adults and $25/half-hour for kids. 

Can I ask why you give such a discount to adults?  I charge everyone the same because they all get the same thing: me!   

[penguinlover]

Man, if your rates are the norm, I am certainly undercharging my students.  I live in a very poor area, and not many can afford music lessons.  I don't  think I could make a living at it, due to my locale.  I have said it many times before, but I think I would teach for free if a family couldn't afford it, and the child was really interested.  I love teaching. 

[laipu]

Hi, there:

Why don't you come to Ottawa, Canada? Good piano teachers are in high demand here. Average piano teachers charge Can$40/h, good ones $60/h. I know some teachers have long waiting lists!

With your qualification, you should have no problem finding students.

One tip: you have to advertise in Chinese newpaper. All kids in chinese family play piano!

Good Luck!

[lostinidlewonder]

If you really want to make more money you teach mass classes. When I was in Germany I sat in on a music class in Fulda where there where 3 students and one teacher. The teacher shared his attention amongst the three and charged about $90 AUS for the hour for each student. $270 an hour is quite a good pay if you ask me for teaching music (although I have paid up to $500 an hour with top teachers).

The difficulty is being able to divide your time to effectively teach multiple students. I was watching this teacher work it was amazing, he didn't let any of the three students stagnate not knowing what to do next, he kept the ball rolling for each of them which I think is very important. I have seen mass classes where it is totally disorganised and students sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for their teacher to give the next direction, this is poor service imo and not worth much.

You need a lot of teaching experience to be able to teach multiple students effectively. Also you would need a music school to set up this kind of situation unless you have multiple pianos in your own home. Teaching on digital pianos could also be a solution but only for Beginner/Intermediate students. There is a Piano Lab at the Curtin Univeristy here in West Australia, there is about 30 digital pianos all connected up to the teachers seat so he/she can flick a switch and listen to each student individually. There is also a microphone so the teacher can speak to each students seperately without leaving their seat. However I don't know how this would help when teaching fingering or cultivating an efficient technique.



I had one teacher talk with me about how to increase your musical network. This fellow has been teaching guitar for 20 years and like most teachers has reached a limitation to what he can do with his students. When he organises student concerts there simply isn't enough people to fill a hall so he does the concerts in his own backyard, although he has always dreamt about doing it in a public concert hall. "So what do I do about it? How can I get a concert hall filled for my student concerts?" he asked me.

We started to throw ideas around but I was certain to fill the hall you would need to do the concert with a few more teachers and their students. Why does it only have to be your own students? Why can't you get more students from different teachers and who play different instruments? I said if we both do one together (although I have done my own concerts with my students and filled halls) we could easily get it going. Also I encouraged him to speak with his own guitar mentor to try and get some higher class players to support the event.

Getting more teachers with their student networks involved in a mass public concert is a complicated task and might overwhelm those who have little/no experience in setting up concerts. I rely heavily on my experience of doing my own solo concerts, but when we do concerts with several teachers the work needed to get everything working perfectly increases.

People are so lazy (this is not being insulting but its true) most people will not go that extra mile to help you out, they simply do what they need to do and thats it. Any problems the come up before/during the concert they do not mention it to you (like a student not totally commited to be part of the event), so when it comes to the day you have several peformers who magically dissapear and are no where to be found. What do you do then? Also what do you do about rehersing the event? It is quite difficult to get say 30 people who are doing the event to come together, so how do you make sure that you can work out the logistics of the entire event with some people missing?

Unexpected things constantly happen and you will lose a lot of hair over it if you cannot see the solution, but if you have a desire to do this you must work damn hard and have the leaders of the other musical networks to be as inspired to do the same. If you find yourself controlling everyone, including the teachers who organise their own student to play in the student concert, you will find you will spread yourself too thin. You must make sure you work with people who are willing to work hard WITH YOU and go the extra mile. Those who can do things without being ask, or those who are confident that they can do something without having to ask you!

So you can tap into peoples own musical networks and ask them to combine it with your own. This is a powerful tool in getting yourself known. When I do public concerts with my students I am more nervous about them playing than myself. Why? Because the students are a product of my teaching, all of my efforts are highlighted when a student gets on stage to play. From public concerts with my students my name gets better known and people can see the results from my efforts through my students. However how you actually present the concerts itself is important but that is a totally different discussion and quite a personal matter. I try to make the audience realise that all performers bar the teachers, are amateur  players, some have never played on stage before so please be kind to them etc etc. I usually start with the "weakest" players first and gradually build up to the best.

Doing student concerts is the next step for those who have saturated their teaching limitations. It is essential to get your students out there to play for the public otherwise all your efforts are simply done behind closed doors (which is fine if that is your aim). Even if you help the student to attain their masters degree in music what is the point if you never present that to the public? It is a paper awarded behind closed doors. I am so proud of my students and encourage them always to give their music (once they do a good job of it) to the public. Some are petrifed to do so, so I feel it is my duty to give them courage even if it means standing next to them on stage while they play.


Giving free public master classes is also important for the music teacher who wishes to expand. Give one free public music class every month. You can do this at a school, church, social club, wherever you think is appropriate. If you give this to say 50 participants if one of them wish to study then you can sign them up. But what about if you cannot handle any more students? Then you pass these prospective student to your star student who is able and willing to teach. You can earn commission out of this of course. Personally I have three students who teach music for a living, they are always willing to have more students (and some of them even have students who teach as well!).

I have drawn out a tree diagram of my student network, it goes down to four level that is... Me (and the teachers I associate with) on level one , the students I teach on level 2, the students of my students level 3, and the students of my students students level 4 It is important to visually see a tree diagram of your students or some sort of diagram which represents your student network. If you can actually see it you can actively change and expand it, don't keep it in your head.

All in all, you can make a lot of money being a music teacher, but you have to break free from thinking about doing it all by yourself. You will reach a maximum student load and simply stay there for the rest of your life if you try that. You must know how to teach your students to teach other people. Even if your student is a professional in another job you should encourage those who are able to at least have a few students every week.

Of course you will know who is suitable to teach or not, I only have 3 students of my own who are capable to teach most levels (except concert pianist level), yes there are other but I do not believe they can teach every level, perhaps beginner/intermediate. It is good to start somewhere, if you have a student who could teach a beginner/intermediate then get them to do it but I personally think a beginner is the hardest student to teach because there are so many hurdles and some simply "do not get it". If a teacher does not know multiple ways to teach a simple concept then they will fail as a teacher. I am always wary of that when I delegate students to one of my own students. Do I think that the problems facing this new prospective student can be solved by my own student? I work this out by interviewing the new student first and measing their musical ability. If they are really good I will teach them myself, if they are not so good then I will give them to one of my other students.

There are more ways to grow your own musical network but in the end you will find that you really need a head quarters, somewhere where all of your students can meet in one place. You will know when you reach that level and the need for that is there. What is the point starting a music school with only 20 students under you? If that is it you will suffer a long hard road to encourage more. But if you start the school and over 100+ music students know you and 1000+ talk about you with the the students you teach then you are getting somewhere. Do more of your own solo concerts, go to primary/high schools and give music to them for free. If you do things for free you still get something out of it, nothing is free. Doing free stuff is simply advertising yourself, not in a scattergun approach (like on radio or television) but focusing your advertising in niches which will be interest to hear from you. Find out where the musical appreciation courses are in your town, get in contact with other music teachers in your area (yes some will be totally arrogant and uninterested in you wanting to bring together your networks, don't waste your time with them let them stay in their little teaching zone for the rest of their lives,  just move on to the next one)

[juliax]

Thanks for your replies, keep them coming.

Is there anyone here who is single and does this and lives on it?

Yes, I am single, and I make about 60k a year.  I've been doing it on my own for ONE year.  I taught at a school for 6 years before that.  Maybe that's not much money to you, but I think it's plenty of money to by a house with... maybe that's just my location?  I plan on opening a studio eventually and hiring teachers to work for me, which will put me well over 6 figures.  I'm still in my early 20s and I haven't finished my degree yet, so it seems with your education, you could charge way more than I do.  I was raised by an entrepreneur, so I have always been very business minded.  If you run your school like a business, you will be successful.  If you run your business like a teacher, you won't be.  You have to choose clients who respect your policies, and understand that you have to eat too.

[andric_s]

Can I ask why you give such a discount to adults?  I charge everyone the same because they all get the same thing: me!   

It's partly because I find teaching kids to be more work, and more responsibility, than teaching adults.  And while an hour is IMO too long for most kids, it really isn't any less work for me to teach a half hour lesson... I'm not charging for my time, but rather for my energy and continued interest in their musical development.

Man, if your rates are the norm, I am certainly undercharging my students.  I live in a very poor area, and not many can afford music lessons.  I don't  think I could make a living at it, due to my locale.  I have said it many times before, but I think I would teach for free if a family couldn't afford it, and the child was really interested.  I love teaching. 

Yeah, I would take a student for free if they couldn't afford it.  I think my adult rates are below the norm, while my kid rates are a little above it.  I'm in Vermont.


But I bet the original poster, thalberg,  could charge alot more than I do, after gaining some experience.  A doctorate is a nice start. 

[cjp_piano]

So you can tap into peoples own musical networks and ask them to combine it with your own.

This is a good idea

When I do public concerts with my students I am more nervous about them playing than myself. Why? Because the students are a product of my teaching, all of my efforts are highlighted when a student gets on stage to play. From public concerts with my students my name gets better known and people can see the results from my efforts through my students.

Quite arrogant, don't you think?  Sure you have some effect on how they learn, grow, develop, and perform, but don't take all the credit here.  You know some students don't do very well even though you "taught and taught" and others perform well without much of your help 

Giving free public master classes is also important for the music teacher who wishes to expand. Give one free public music class every month. You can do this at a school, church, social club, wherever you think is appropriate. If you give this to say 50 participants if one of them wish to study then you can sign them up.

This is another good idea

if you have a student who could teach a beginner/intermediate then get them to do it but I personally think a beginner is the hardest student to teach because there are so many hurdles and some simply "do not get it".

Exactly, and it's the teacher's fault if they "don't get it"

If they are really good I will teach them myself, if they are not so good then I will give them to one of my other students.

This seems completely backwards considering what you just said.  If they are not so good, they need an experienced teacher who knows how to help them "get it."  You should take the ones that are not so good and give the good ones to your other students.   

[m]

Quite arrogant, don't you think?  Sure you have some effect on how they learn, grow, develop, and perform, but don't take all the credit here.  You know some students don't do very well even though you "taught and taught" and others perform well without much of your help 

Well, I don't think it is arrogant at all, but shows the responsiblitiy of the teacher and that the teacher cares what s/he is doing.

It is a deepest fallacy to think students (esp. kids) perform well without much of teacher's help. Just go to some student concerts or competitions and you will immediately tell students from good teachers.
Likewise, you will also see very talented kids who unfortunately were not taught well.

Best, M

[cjp_piano]

Well, I don't think it is arrogant at all, but shows the responsiblitiy of the teacher and that the teacher cares what s/he is doing.

It is a deepest fallacy to think students (esp. kids) perform well without much of teacher's help. Just go to some student concerts or competitions and you will immediately tell students from good teachers.
Likewise, you will also see very talented kids who unfortunately were not taught well.

Best, M

Yeah I was kind of joking, I guess it's hard to tell on here . . 

And I wasn't saying that every student who performs well does it without the teacher's help, I was saying that some students perform well without much help, they do it naturally.  I've heard students play well when I knew that their teacher wasn't very good.  That was my point.  You can't take all the credit, that's all. 

[m]

  I've heard students play well when I knew that their teacher wasn't very good.  That was my point.  You can't take all the credit, that's all. 

OK, I won't... if you say so

[lostinidlewonder]

Sure you have some effect on how they learn, grow, develop, and perform, but don't take all the credit here.  You know some students don't do very well even though you "taught and taught" and others perform well without much of your help 

I find it my own failure if a student makes a fatal mistake in concert because I have not prepared them enough to play through their mistakes. I believe I know more about concert performing than them so I definately hope I can rub off some experience to them. As a teacher I find that it is wrong to ask your student to play on stage if they are not "completely ready". This idea of completely ready is different for each teacher.

I constantly put my students into the "no mistake allowed" stress level that performing sets up. I test their performance several times and they have to prove to me that they can do it well several times without chance. I also care a lot more about my students feeling than myself. If I make a mistake onstage I know I can deal with it because I really don't give it a second thought anymore, but to young kids, making an error in concert can be a bad experience for them. I am always worried they will make mistakes and feel bad no matter how much I tell them making errors are fine so long you don't stop.

Even though it is a misconception to apply all the time, how well a student plays in public is a reflection of how good the teacher is. The honest truth is that there is probably... 10% mentoring and teaching and 90% of the students own efforts. The 10% of mentoring is very important because helps students to organise where they spend their 90%, but if there is no effort on the students behalf then the teaching is useless.

Effective teaching will produce better results in a student with less effort on their behalf to achieve the same result. So with good mentoring they can manage their time to learn more musical notes than they otherwise would have been able.

Thus I really do feel that when my students are on stage it is a product of my efforts but of course the reality is that it is mostly their own. However the audience do not compeltely think of it this way, a lot of them will consider how well they play as a direct product of the teaching. Even though this is true, it is not completely true, but the audience will not see that 10% teacher, 90% student effort differences. Because I cannot hypnotise the audience to think otherwise, even if I tell them it outright, I in turn get nervous when my student plays because it is a reflection of myself, even if it is not completely true! After the student concerts we (other teachers doing the concert and myself) get a lot of interested prospective students come to us wanting tuition and this is directly a result of how well our students play in concerts.

It shouldn't work that way but it does, its all business, very heartless, ruthless, my students are a product I put up on a display shelve for the public to see and thus make a purchase of my services. It can be looked at like that, but the reality is the concerts are more for my students and to bring music to the community whatever else happens as a result of that is a bonus but not directly intended, it is for sure not unwelcomed! But there are all those other things floating in the air making the meaning of what you are doing different all the time, you can pay attention to them but it doesn't motivate what you do.

.....it's the teacher's fault if they "don't get it"

It is not always the teachers fault if they don't get it. I had a student who could absolutely not tap their left hand twice on their knee while the right hand tapped once. If a student has not this coordination how on earth do we imagine that they can play the keyboard? You can only break down tapping the knees into steps so far until you get so simple you cannot go further.

This goes for piano issues too, I have had students who absolutely cannot get playing trills no matter how many ways we describe it and no matter how many different ways we break it up. Some simply never get syncopation because they are trapped in the thought process of together or seperate, the concept of inbetween is too much for them. Of course with age usually comes this ability to work more tricky coordinations out, but you must usually wait for them to mature until they get it.

Still I have had adults who have very slow learning curves, even though they improve slowly they really "do not get it". It will take them say a couple of months or more to play a difficult passage for them to finally get it. Yes they do get it but it is incredibly slow, there is little a teacher can do if these students cannot dedicate time. There is no magical formulae of practice method I can give a student which allows them to do 5 minutes a day to learn a "difficult" movement that they are not getting.

This seems completely backwards considering what you just said.  If they are not so good, they need an experienced teacher who knows how to help them "get it."  You should take the ones that are not so good and give the good ones to your other students.   

I pass on most of my early beginners to other students because I have already trained my other students how to deal with early beginners. I prefer teaching intermediate to advanced students because I can describe more musical elements of playing, they get more value out of the $ with me. However the beginner students pay good $ just to be taught the basics which I believe is a waste of money. I have more to give on the musical and technical side of playing piano than I have teaching them to read notes, play chords, the process of memory etc etc. Also my student load allows me to be selective.

Teaching a beginner is very difficult because there are many miniscule hurdles (for us as teachers but big burdles for the student)to overcome. You cannot skip steps you must go through each and every step with the beginner student and ensure that they understand each and every step themselves so that they can recreate those efforts when they sit by themselves. I have done enough of this type of teaching, it just doesn't challenge me enough anymore. I find it much more enjoyable and more of a learning experience for myself to sit with my teaching student and discuss ways to improve a beginner student they teach, rather than teach the beginner student myself.

The reality is the better you get at the piano the harder it becomes to teach you. But I find it more of a mental strain to teach early beginners because what I am teaching is so rudimentary and basic for me that it makes me sick sometimes to explain it over and over again as a beginner student requires the repetition. More advanced students I can explain musical concepts, expression and technique which can be very difficult but for myself but is very enjoyable and one of my greatest interests, so it doesn't feel like work for me although I go through a lot more information.

[cjp_piano]

Thus I really do feel that when my students are on stage it is a product of my efforts but of course the reality is that it is mostly their own.

Exactly, that was my point 

It is not always the teachers fault if they don't get it. I had a student who could absolutely not tap their left hand twice on their knee while the right hand tapped once. If a student has not this coordination how on earth do we imagine that they can play the keyboard? You can only break down tapping the knees into steps so far until you get so simple you cannot go further.

It's so simple, so I'm sure you've tried it:  have them tap both of their hands at the same time, then have them tap just their left hand.   You explain it to them as you do it with them (probably mirroring them so when it's "left", you're reallying doing your right.)  Then as you repeat it, and they're thinking and/or saying "both, left, both, left," it will start to become habit and they should get it.  If not, then you have failed again and you need to try something else. 

I have had students who absolutely cannot get playing trills no matter how many ways we describe it and no matter how many different ways we break it up.

They can get it, you haven't tried the right thing, or they're not ready for trills.  If they're not ready, then it's your fault for giving them a piece with trills.   

Maybe you're right about some students just not getting it.  But if you blame it on that, then you can't take credit for the ones that DO get it.  Can't have it both ways.   

Seriously though, if I think that it's MY fault as a teacher, then I must try to figure out how to present it, how to get them to experience it, etc.  And this is what is challenging and makes you a better teacher.

I have more to give on the musical and technical side of playing piano than I have teaching them to read notes, play chords, the process of memory etc etc.

I'm sure we've all had a "transfer" intermediate student who has poor technique, can't sightread, isn't musical, etc.  Most of the time, it's because when they began piano, they had a teacher who didn't think they needed to address technique and musicality to beginners. 

But I find it more of a mental strain to teach early beginners because what I am teaching is so rudimentary and basic for me that it makes me sick sometimes to explain it over and over again as a beginner student requires the repetition. More advanced students I can explain musical concepts, expression and technique which can be very difficult but for myself but is very enjoyable and one of my greatest interests, so it doesn't feel like work for me although I go through a lot more information.

So, you're much better at teaching more advanced students.  It's good that you've realized what you're good at.