Can a student always improve?

[penguinlover]

Here's a question that has been on my mind for some time.  Do you think that a person gets to a certain level in their piano playing, then can go no further?  Is there a limit as to how good a person can get?  Or, can one always improve? 

[pianistimo]

i think you can always improve.  unless there is some underlying health problem that prevents it.  even memory can be strengthened by practice.  i think it is making time to practice every day.  as adults, it is harder to make oneself be consistent on a daily basis.   but, if you're at that point in your life where you can - then you are surely going to improve with thoughtful practice techniques and relaxation.  i think sometimes adults pressure themselves to learn a piece by such and such date.  it's good to have expected dates - but not be so perfectionistic that you cannot deal with delays.  perhaps for adults - perfectionism hinders the quality because we focus sometimes on what others can do instead of what is our timing and talent/ability.  for me it is 80 -90% perspiration (although i never sweat) - and 10% just letting it happen.  some of the perspiration is working my pedalling technique so that it is not sloppy.  even little bits of progress can be encouraging if you record yourself at the beginning of the week and end of the week and listen to the difference.  also, i use recordings to speed my memory process. 

btw, you are an inspiration to me because you also raised children and now have more time to devote to piano.  it's a goal - but not end in itself.  you probably still have to send care packages, etc.  perhaps i will miss it when they no longer tell me to use the earphones so they can do their homework.

[jeremyjchilds]

The teacher can always improve.

I have to believe this, or else i would quit teaching piano.

even if I have a student that cannot improve (Which I beleive I have) it makes more sense to keep trying new things so that i will not lose interest (then they are a lost cause)..

[zheer]

.  Do you think that a person gets to a certain level in their piano playing, then can go no further?  Is there a limit as to how good a person can get? 

 We all have limits, but boy it will take a long time to reach that limit.

[pizno]

Gosh I hope so.  But to improve, I think an adult really needs to work hard to break old habits.  We can't keep playing like we did to keep us entertained in those post college years.  I find the whole process incredibly fascinating and frustrating at the same time.  I am determined to be able to do things better, yet when I try too hard, I turn into a head case and get paralysis by analysis.  Sometimes I just need to believe that I can play the piano and let go, instead of hearing all the many, many voices inside my head.  Too many lessons, perhaps, and very high expectations. 

pizno

[pianowelsh]

we can feel we reach a limit and give up! I dont believe there are actually as many limits on our playing as we would like to construct.  If you peresevere and press through the plateaus people come out the other side much improoved.  Too often we give up too soon.

[leahcim]

Here's a question that has been on my mind for some time.  Do you think that a person gets to a certain level in their piano playing, then can go no further?  Is there a limit as to how good a person can get?  Or, can one always improve? 

I believe there are some that just won't learn, no matter how much they try, let alone reach a plateau.

OTOH, if playing another piece at the same level is improvement, then for some it'll be unlikely they will run out of pieces to play. Similarly if playing the same piece "better" counts then that's such a subjective goal it's probably always possible to argue they are better.

But if improvement means playing pieces which are more difficult and / or having a larger rep / improving your understanding / interpretation and things like that , then I'd say it's perfectly possible that not only will some not improve, but some will get progressively worse given long enough rather than better. Some will never get to a standard where it's worth worrying about "improvement" or not because there's little sense in which they can play any pieces or to any standard.

e.g I've not managed to master a piece yet, after years of playing for hours a day. How can I measure improvement in those terms? It's taking less pain killers, or perhaps a feeling that it's more comfortable - it's not getting to another grade or mastering a piece.

I carry on merely because I have a vain hope I can improve but mainly because I've not a lot else to do with the time it takes and because I love the music and have at least learnt and listened to more classical pianists and composers than I would if I hadn't have started.

But I think most would have given up by now and then their lack of improvement would have been attributed [incorrectly imo] to that act [i.e they will be seen as giving in, losing interest or not putting in enough effort] rather that what motivated them to stop.

Had I been younger the essence of 'finishing' a piece would probably be which of me or a teacher got bored with it first [whatever standard it was at] and I would probably be forced into going thus I'd be playing through books of pieces without any improvement per se, except for going from some book one to some book n.

At the other end of the scale, the top players, it becomes subjective as I said above, but it'll vary whether you think Horowitz got better at specific things and at what time [if at all] he got worse at others.

Folks in the middle of the range of abilities from me to Hamelin et al, it just seems logical that they will plateau before reaching the top end, otherwise they'll reach it... although I guess some might meet the choir invisible before it happens.

[pianowelsh]

Mmm in not sure about the line of improvment being subjective.. Perhaps some things can only be percieved..but many things are tangible.  Other things are not, ie the outworking may not yet be visible but the concept is firmly planted and understood.. To me this would be a progress.  I am not sure that there are people who wont learn. The question is what will they learn?  Maybe they wont learn to count for AGES!!! but if you keep bringing it up they will learn that rhythm IS important... this is the first step.   I think your use of the word WONT is actually important - will is actually a huge part of learning. If you dont want to learn something the chances are you probably wont. I have one student who ' wont' take the time to write in fingering on their new pieces...I have exhorted them with each new piece 'write it in' they dont. They have reccently realised that it is much better when this is done from day one rather than practising and coming to the lesson and fixing the fingerings for circ 10-15mins! I questioned whether they would learn but ultimately they came around because I showed them how significantly their decision was holding them back (they are quite advanced). They were at a plateau and have now moved on.   Admittedly it takes creativity to see improvement in some students when they have been playing the same rhythm wrong for weeks!! but as teachers we need to be on the look out for thinsg to praise.  Encouragement and positive referral is a large part of success.

[nightingale11]

the only thing preventing a student from improving is death.

[pianowelsh]

I dont even know about that nightingale.. I have a couple I wonder about?!    im teasing of course... I completely agree with you.

[penguinlover]

I sure hope you all are right.  I want to keep improving, until I die, then I guess it won't matter.

[keyofc]

I third that!

If you think you're stuck in your improvement - if you take lessons with someone who is much better than you - you will be surprised how much there is to learn.

I had two experiences - I was playing in a church band where I was the best.  Not bragging, but there was just no question about it.  I did not, by the way, point this out there.
But I did not learn a whole lot while playing with them.  And oftentimes I'd get frustrated because they wanted to play in the "safe" keys all the time.

Then I joined a band later on - where everyone was better than me.
I didn't know it when I joined - that it was going to be that different.  But I learned an awful lot since then.

If at all possible - work with people who are better than you - and you will know you can improve - and not only know you can - but you will learn how you can improve.

[leahcim]

If you think you're stuck in your improvement - if you take lessons with someone who is much better than you - you will be surprised how much there is to learn.

Well. not to labour a point but "everything" isn't really a surprise I know how much there is to learn. The thread is about whether people reach a point where they stop learning it, not whether they think they've learnt everything there is

The [welcome] surprise would be if said "good" teacher existed.

Of course, it's trivial to find someone better than us, but "good teacher" is more difficult and changes based upon the problem(s) you have improving. The teacher that's good at showing uni students the subtle nuances of interpretation in masterclasses qute often isn't going to have much idea [or motivation for that matter] to teach someone who can barely play a note where to go.

I doubt a we could name 100 people in the "good teacher" category given these specific criteria - not just "plays better" but that can actually address the specific problem(s) a student has [even if so, at 50 pupils each, that's only 5000 people that can get a good teacher, the rest have to improve in some other way - this is why books and dvds sell and why there are hundreds of people pouring over the threads in here - it's not because there's an abundance of good teachers out there teaching it all face to face and improving people's piano playing]

My sons primary school has a music assembly which is a total farce, it's just kids playing "C C C G G G" and things like that on whatever instrument they've got. If you read Bernhard's 2004 post where he talks about teaching a Chinese kid, not some prodigy, just an ordinary kid to actually play pieces, in that context you realise why that would look so impressive, because most of the kids the same age aren't being taught a $£$"£ing thing.

My son brought the sheet for 'opportunity to learn a musical instrument' home and I'm so reluctant to fill it in for those reasons, because I saw his potential frustration when I taught him to ride a bike. It was clear how upset he could get...but the key thing was he could ride the bike at the end of the day.

But I wouldn't wish upon him the total sense of failure and despair that your average piano teacher, who has absolutely no idea at all how to teach piano, might leave him with if he has lessons [not to mention the potential injuries]

Now how many of that hypothetical list live within, say, even 100 miles of one of us? In my case I'd say it's probably none, once you've factored in all the criteria, the guy that only wants to teach kids, the one that'd wants you to do a £25+ round trip every day for a 10 or 15 minute lesson before you've even found the money for his fees and stuff like that - clearly the changes of getting a good teacher are minimal - there has to be another alternative.

Most people improve irrespective of their teachers - [for the very talented, quite often because they don't even have a teacher - either because they are at the very early learning stage before ma and pa are going to go "wow!" and find him / her a teacher or because they are at the stage where they can already play and they don't really need a teacher as such to improve]

The ones that don't improve - the vast majority of people who start and get nowhere - simply stop playing and the average teachers [of which I could quite easily compete with them even though I can't play] will give you a big list of why their pupils failed to learn with things like not being interested / not talented / too lazy or whatever else to rationalise away why they didn't improve.

Sometimes of course, their reasons may be right, but not always and there aren't many teachers you'll ring out of the telephone directory that will say "Well actually, some of my pupils can play, some can't, the ones that do go on to better teachers but I don't have much idea why nor anything to offer the ones who can't <shrug>"]

The lucky ones learn at an age when their skills will find them the teacher - because any under 9yo with chops gets everyone ooohing and aahhing.

As for the subjective bit - obviously there's lots that's tangible too - I thought that would go without saying. But there's lots that's subjective. e.g just pick 2 pianists and start the imaginary thread something like "Could Horowitz have improved his playing to the point of being as good as Hamelin?" - I imagine the resulting flame war will answer the question about whether it's subjective or not

[keyofc]

Well Leachim,
I noticed I wrote the wrong word in there.
I wrote if you take lessons with someone better than you.
I meant if you join a band with people who are better than you

Let's hope the teacher would be more skilled than that student.

Anyways - I was just adding my 2 cents of experience.
Your post is so long I'm not sure what you're trying to say though.

[timothy42b]

There is some experience from athletics that may apply.

In many sports, on average once a person starts to get serious about improving, he/she makes gains for 8 years. 

At 8 years they plateau, and maintain that level of performance until the inevitable age related decline occurs. 

[Bob]

I vote for "always improve."  However, the teacher can run out of ideas.  The student can stop working in new ways.  I had a teacher with whom I plateaued for a couple years -- It dawned on me eventually, but I was letting the teacher lead things too much and they had stopped giving me the ideas I needed.  I have also taught some adult students who I think are so busy they don't absorb their practicing in the non-practice time so their progress is limited.  I had a general classroom teacher who didn't make much progress during the year, but when summer hit, things moved along like normal.

[lostinidlewonder]

Everyone can get better thats for certain but you definately reach a limit and then to push through that limitation you have to dedicate more focused consistient time to improve.

People are simply not willing to give enough time, not only practicing but focusing on the way in which their mind takes in information. This required daily study and monitoring which usually only professional musicians can give. Most people are not professional pianists, they can become very good but never get to the best simply because they have no time to give it.

The truth is that every great concert pianist puts in countless hours in a single piece. You never stop adjusting yourself, not only in the sound but in which the way you make contact with the keyboard. Professional musicians are always thinking about improving the rate in which they learn their music otherwise performing difficult virtuosic pieces will sap too much time. An amature pianist is not so interested in this, they are more interested in playing the music they like and usually behind a closed door or select few listeners.

People definately reach not really a plateau but a very slowly learning curve, an inefficient improvement rate. We are always improving so long we have time to give our music but it is the rate of improvement which slows down. If we are not willing to give a few hours daily to our music we simply cannot improve our learning curve.

There needs to be a focus on understanding exactly how we are letting musical knowledge enter into ourselves. This needs to be coached and improved upon and made more efficient. This comes only from a good mentor and a whole heap of your own personal daily study. Most amature musicians simply cannot dedicate this time to further improve themselves. Once they are able to pull off their Chopin Etude or whatever, as soon as they reach a level that they can impress the general public with (which doesn't have to be very high for most people) they do not have that urge to further improve. So long they can learn pieces in a month or two they are satisfied.

With my own students who are mostly playing piano for their own enjoyment I find that we can give sporatic efforts into changing the rate in which we learn. But I am talking about Beginner to Intermediate levels, all of my advanced students give daily effort to their music and can give it without thought or inconvienience. They are better musicians because they have dedication to a time management plan.

I found that there are four things which really make a great pianist. Firstly heart, being able to feel the emotion in music understand its application to the world around us, being able to relate emotion to your own life experience. Well controlled fingers, which requires a lot of knowledge as to what feels comfortable to our hands. Well disiplined ear, to hear and think about the sound that you are producing and actively be able to hear changes you make to it, being able to also know what is a good sound opposed to an inferior musical idea. Finally the disipline, to be able to give constant time to their musical study.

Most teachers would agree that very few people can master all four aspects, even professional musicians find it difficult. Probably what I see fails most people is the failure in disipline. I find this all the time, one who has a good ear, good hands, can feel the passion in music but who is very undisplined, thus everything else suffers. It is as if the seed has been planted, the soil well prepared and in a good position for the sunlight, but you couldn't be bothered to water it, you just give it a drip at a time. I see these instances all the time and it is exactly what I find slows the learning curve of the greatest % of musical students.

[penguinlover]

Wow, such wisdom from one so young!  I think I am hopeless at this stage to improve much.  Not from lack of passion, but as you said, it's the "time" issue.  And, also, I find myself tiring after an hour or so of practice!   How sad it that?  Oh well, I will keep trying.

[keyofc]

The ones that don't improve - the vast majority of people who start and get nowhere - simply stop playing and the average teachers [of which I could quite easily compete with them even though I can't play] will give you a big list of why their pupils failed to learn with things like not being interested / not talented / too lazy or whatever else to rationalise away why they didn't improve.

Leachim,
Maybe I was reading your post thinking you were interested in improving. It seems like you're wondering how any student can progress after a certain point. 
While re-reading it - I was very surprised that you write you cannot play the piano.

If you can't play - what makes you say you can compete with teachers that play well?
Part of teaching comes from our own experience at the piano.
Being able to diagnose why someone is having trouble is much easier when you have overcome them yourself.

[pianoplayjl]

Every person who plays the piano is a student in my opinion,whether you are a beginner or a professor. therefore, everyone can improve no matter how small the area they have to improve on. . There are always areas to improve.

[lukebar]

If we define "improve" as being able to successfully perform repertoire of a higher and higher difficulty level, then, I think it is true that some students do hit a plateau. Usually, this is due to time constraints on their practicing.

I know from experience that if you take a high school age student who has progressed really well, reached a fairly high level of technical ability, and continue to push them with harder and harder repertoire, it can start to really burn them out. There are students who need to be pushed in this way, but many students reach a level where they would enjoy and probably benefit more from developing other facets of their music making- becoming a better sight-reader, exploring different styles of music, becoming comfortable with improvisation, getting involved in chamber music, etc. Improvement can't be be measured solely by the difficulty level of the repertoire.

Once I learned this, it drastically changed the way I approach working with my high-school age students.

[werq34ac]

Menahem Pressler, although he plays wrong notes, he can play anything with utmost musicality and expression. The music he creates is absolute gold. And yet this person still practices 8 hours a day at the age of about 90. And let me tell you that it is NOT so he makes less mistakes. Actually, he practices to become more mature as a musician. He understands that he still has much to learn about music even if he does understand a heck of a lot more than even professional pianists.

If this man still has much to learn about music with decades of experience with the piano, then imagine how far we are from the limit of being unable to improve. Everyone has the potential to mature as people and as musicians until the day they die.

[pianoplayjl]

Wow, Menahem Pressler reminds me of Rubinstein who was still performing at 90.   

[werq34ac]

To quote Rachmaninoff,
"Music is enough to last a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music"

[deepakkamani]

See, actually students fall into two categories, good hardworking students and non hardworking students. Improvement of the students depends on its own. If the students are having faith then they can improve but students having no felling and faith they can't improve. 

[1piano4joe]

I will answer your question in the following way.

Many things in life (not just piano) become more difficult to improve the better you get at them.

In bowling for example one could improve his 100 league average to a 150 league average. A 50% increase. It becomes mathematically impossible for a 210 league average bowler to improve 50% since that would correspond to a 315 league average. A 150 league average bowler could in theory improve in theory to a 180 league average bowler but would certainly require a certain commitment in time, energy and money. Equipment (6 $200 bowling balls and practicing at $4 a game) becomes more important the better you get. O.K. back to piano

So basically improving in the beginning say from absolute beginner to late elementary should be faster and easier to attain than going from late elementary to late intermediate.

Daily average practice time will need to lengthen and become even more efficient, organized and goal oriented.

Maybe the First year a student can get away with practicing say 15 minutes a day or a half hour every other day.

The Second year (depending on the teacher and the student of course) will require at least 45 minutes of practice daily (Let's say at least 5 days a week).

The third year (depending on progress and chosen (given?) repertoire) could be 1 hour a day up  to 2 hours of perhaps even longer.

People do reach plateaus. This is a period where you may be still improving but it is imperceptible to you or you actually aren't improving at all.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Breaking a plateau requires answering some questions. How am I trying to improve? How am I going about it? How is my teacher going about it? What haven't I tried? What am I prepared to do to break this plateau? Longer uninterrupted practice? Supplementing my current teacher with a second one? Yes, who says you can't have 2 teachers. So again Knowledge, Concentration and Attitude will factor big here.

I do believe that people can peak. Only get so good (at anything in life).

Who can say what that peak is? I don't know who. Life has taught me that is is different for each of us. So if there is a ceiling to a student's playing then what is it? Maybe some students will never be able to play a grade 4 pieces. For others, maybe it's a grade 6. I have no way of knowing and would never say even if I thought I did.

I haven't reached my peak yet (but then again I'm really not that advanced ) and I have no idea if and/or when that will happen? There are pieces several levels above my current level that I am willing to wait to get to. I prefer going in the pool one toe at a time.

Musically maybe your tastes will change and "mature". Is that improving?