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Topic: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths  (Read 2955 times)

Offline keyofc

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follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
on: March 19, 2007, 10:09:09 PM
Ok - so we know parallel 5ths are wrong especially if you're studying Bach's music.
But - what are some ways you have learned to avoid them?

Offline Bob

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007, 11:44:35 PM
Move the top three voices contrary to the bass.

Use thirds.

Be very aware of where the root and 5th are.  If you invert those, you don't have a fifth to worry about anymore.

Depending on the style, leave the fifth out.  It's not a defining part of the chord.


Those are very general but they can help you work around parallel fifths.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline keyofc

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #2 on: March 23, 2007, 07:58:49 PM
Thanks Bob -
I've mostly heard of what NOT to do

Offline Bob

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #3 on: March 24, 2007, 03:20:13 AM
Those were my "cheats" for theory.  Otherwise, there are so many little rules you have to worry about.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline mcgillcomposer

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #4 on: May 17, 2007, 06:09:31 PM
It is important to understand WHY parallel octaves and fifths are usually prohibited, because the DO exist in Bach, Beethoven, Mozartm, etc. and not always as a doubled voice if there are more than 4 in the chord. They are, in fact, quite common at cadences (that should provide a hint  ;) ). A neat anecdote: Brahms kept a log of parallels in the music of great masters who came before him...look for them in his music, you can learn A LOT!

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Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen,Sir Thomas Beecham replied, "No, but I once trod in some."

Offline mknueven

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 01:32:08 AM
For instance - what about Beethovens Moonlight Sonata? (the famous one)
Why does everyone think the parallel octaves in the bass sound beautiful?
I think so too - I guess I mean - why are they beautiful - and others ugly?

Offline quantum

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #6 on: February 14, 2008, 08:59:40 PM
For instance - what about Beethovens Moonlight Sonata? (the famous one)
Why does everyone think the parallel octaves in the bass sound beautiful?
I think so too - I guess I mean - why are they beautiful - and others ugly?

The bass octaves in Beethoven 1st movement are more a matter of registration, and can be thought of as a single unit rather than two voices.  This example of parallel 8ves is in different context than that of an SATB example.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline guendola

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #7 on: February 16, 2008, 05:33:37 AM
The bass octaves in Beethoven 1st movement are more a matter of registration, and can be thought of as a single unit rather than two voices.  This example of parallel 8ves is in different context than that of an SATB example.

Remember: Parallel fifths and octaves should be avoided in polyphonic music, where you have several voices because - especially with octaves - two voices will merge to one when they move in fifths or octaves. You can argue about fifths and you won't be alone. But soundwise fifths are pretty close to octaves on many instruments because the harmonics of both notes are very similar. So, in order to have the nice polyphonic web, avoid parallel movement in fifths and octaves. This does not apply to doubled voices. For example, if you have a bass playing in octaves, that is one voice only. But if you have bass and tenor playing in octaves, that is two voices and should not happen.

And there is more to it (in polyphonic music): Open parallels should be handled strictly and hardly ever occur in music by the "old masters". Hidden parallels (jumping into octaves or fifths from any interval while the voices are going into the same direction) are getting way less attention and many people just ignore them today.

Offline cygnusdei

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #8 on: February 21, 2008, 12:37:29 AM
I forgot most of these already. Do the rules apply when the melody repeats a note?

For example, in "Jesu, meine Freude" the first two notes in the melody are

a a

Does it break the rule if the tenor is also singing a a, an octave lower?

Offline quantum

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Re: follow-up on forbidden fifths/8ths
Reply #9 on: February 21, 2008, 04:53:45 AM
Repetitions are like ties.  You can have exactly the same chord repeated because it is just like holding down one long chord.

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach
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