strong willed student

[Bob]

The theivery continues... 



One of my more frustrating students is a very strong willed girl who tunes out
anything that doesn't fit in her preconceived notions of how music should
operate. When she first learned the middle C position, she tuned out anything
that suggested she should put her hands any place other than middle C. She went
home and practiced a piece for an entire week that was in a C major position but
played it in Middle C. She was very hurt when I told her quite curtly that she
didn't play a single to correctly in the entire piece, and that she got a zero
for playing the piece in the wrong position. It took being a bit harsh in that
regard to get her to pay attention to what I was saying.

When she came back the following week, she started out by putting her hands in
the middle C position. I told her curtly once again that she was going to get
another zero on the piece. She shook her head and promptily moved her hands to
the C major position.

She has similarly fought me on sharps and flats, often totally ignoring an
accidental in plain view. I will have her name the notes. If the note is F#
and she says F, I give her no credit for getting the F part right. I asked her
to play F, then I asked her to play F#. I then asked her if those were the same
keys. Of course, she knew they were not. I then told her that playing F when
the note is F# is not right in any way. It is no more right than saying a T
sound when a word has a Th in it.

It is very frustrating having to work with this girl, as she doesn't listen to
anything I say that she doesn't think should be the case. I have to repeat
myself frequently, and I ask her to repeat back what I've just said. Quite
often she cannot do so, because she tuned out everything I said. I have had to
be quite forceful in fiighting her determination to think she knows it all.

I'm curious as to whether other teachers have encountered students with such a
bent.

[counterpoint]

I had some students with such a behaviour too. I think it's a game they play with you. The name of the game is "Tell me whatever you want - I will not do it". Now to the question, why someone would behave this way: There is a message in this behaviour. It reads: "I'm not having piano lessons because I want to learn piano, but because other people force me to." It's a sort of self defense.

[rach n bach]

Ditto.

I've only encountered a couple students like this, but they are annoying in the extreme.  The only thing that really worked for me was pretty much what you are doing... though you have to keep in mind that a) these kids (be they 5,7, or 12) think they are as smart as you, b) you will probably have to do/make somethink to encourage them to like the piano.  I hated the **** out of my piano lessons for the first 8 months, but now, you would need a national disater to get me off of the bench when I'm playing.

Good Luck!

RnB

[keyofc]

Aside from the rebellion in this generation (gee, I wonder where they got it! )
do you think it is possible that she just does not feel secure in another position.
I have noticed that kids are really hard pressed to change finger patterns once they get stuck in middle c position too long.

Maybe I'm too soft,
but what I would do - I would  give her 50% right if she is playing in the wrong octave as long as she is doing everything else right.
Reason being  - to encourage her - and show her how close she is to 100.  You might take points off for dynamics, etc. sometmes and show her that you are looking at all of her piano playing
Then maybe show her how pretty it sounds to play in the different registers.  Play something in middle c position - then 8va - and then see if that's motivating for her.

my 2 cents anyway- good luck with her!

[ingagroznaya]

It's not strong will. It's stupidity. Once I had a kid who practiced like mad, but would not do anything I'd suggest. He'd either get upset and cry or get hysterical. Our lessons was more about catering to his sensitivity needs then anything else. It was a joke, a therapist session. Finally, after a serious talk,  he declared -  "If it's a school, I do not want to be here". Oh, Goodness! I took him down to his mom's car and the matter was easily resolved. Mom said:" I can not do anything about it, he is 10 years old". Well, so do I.

Your student acts the same at home and she is not at your place to learn piano. Parents just figured you'll be a great babysitter, while they are resting from her refusal of doing what they tell her to do. Let her go. It is her parents who had no will to prepare the child for your lessons. You can not change the kid. This kind of behavior is usually reinforced at home. She will not benefit from your instructions.

Once you've suggested to me to dump a student of my own and I'm still grateful. This sort of "wills" are not only pointless, they drain way too much energy out of your day. Never worth it.

[lagin]

I WAS a student like this.  I did it because: 1.  My teacher never enforced what she told me to do, but rather let things slide if I didn't do them so I didn't think I HAD to.  I viewed her directives as advice rather than instructions.  2.  I didn't trust my teacher's knowledge as sometimes she would answer my questions by saying "learn it equally well both ways and then pick the one you like the best," which I interpretted as "she doesn't know either."  3.  I wanted to see if she would still like me even if I didn't do what she wanted.  (That was a major component).   

My other teacher had the balance totally perfected of "niceness" and "strictness."  She's never mean or harsh, but will gladly, and with much patience, turn my lesson into a practice session where she will coach me step by step through whatever it is that I should have done at home!  With a child that is young enough that they might not easily clue into the fact that this is actually a waste of their time and hinders their progress I would probably say something like, "Since you didn't have a chance to do this at home this week, I will do it with you now."  And then when I give them their new assignments I would say, "Remember to practice it just like I showed you at home so we don't have to do it at your lessons because it's not very fun not being able to keep moving forward and getting new pieces which is what will happen if I keep needing to practice with you instead of teaching your new and fun things."  Or something along those lines.  I'd make it sound like it didn't matter to me either way what they did, but that the "cost" would be to them for their own negligence.  That way they can't manipulate you or your emotions if they don't see it working.   As a student, I learned very quickly that my teacher seriously meant for me to do my practice exactly as she asked me to not because of what she said, but because if I didn't I knew exactly what we would be doing at our next lesson.  She didn't let anything "slide." 

If a student gave me attitude in my lessons, depending on the student I would either:

A: Confront them age depending, and level of attitude depending
B: Drop a hint to their parents - just a hint because parents don't like being told Sally isn't behaving.
C: Ignore it completely and patiently wait for them to cooperate and thus frusterate them!  I had a girl who once would sigh and plop her hands in her lap.  I simply sat back and waited in silence.  She put her hands back on the keys quite quickly.  HOWEVER she didn't come back the following year, but that was due to another mistake I made as a teacher I think.  I gave her what I knew she COULD do rather than what would keep her interested.  I pushed her progress.  Even though my demands were not unreasonable, I should have recognized her as a "hobby" student, and worried more about "fun" than progress.  I also made her play a piece that she wasn't ready to perform since she didn't practice it hardly ever, at a recital to "teach" her that I meant what I said (I told her she had to play it since she picked it).  I learned there to be very care with what I say because I might have to follow through, even if the kid doesn't do what they're supposed to.  Anyway this is all to say, DON'T get in a power struggle with them because you might lose.  Establish your authority in whatever way you think is best, and be careful that you don't back yourself in a corner with your own words. 

I just thought of a D option:  I might get a chart and put sticker up on the "oops" side, everytime she starts with the wrong hand position, and explain that it's the play then think side.  I would actually call it the "oops" side.  Not WRONG, but rather mistake.  That way they won't want to make a mistake, whereas the might really want to do it wrong on purpose to get your goat.  And a star on the "I remembered to think first, play 2nd!" side for when she does it correctly.  You can use the same chart for all sorts of pieces which would be very helpful as the positions get more varied later on.  You could divide into months and see how many less "oops" she can get over time, though you wouldn't need to explain this to her because if she thinks you WANT her to do better and better, there's opportunity for her to rebel again.  Rather, the stars are just a fact of piano life.  You might reward her with a little something for doing so well, eventually, but I wouldn't tell her of an award in advance because even young kids can see through that. 

[becca91]

I have a student like this too, and I almost said something to the parents last week. He gets me so frustrated because he'll just tell me to "hold on" the whole time. He'll play something like "Mary had a little lamb" or "heart and soul" over and over. Then he'll proceed to play every key on the piano one by one!  And the fact that I'm not an "adult" to him might make me look like I don't deserve as much respect and he doesn't have to listen to me. Although, they don't listen to their parents either. Any suggestions of what to say to the parents?
I don't know if I should keep going with him (and his sister) even though I know they don't like it. When I was younger I went through a period where I did not want to keep learning, but my mom made me. And now I love it, so I'm not sure what to do.