Last mvts Moonlight, Waldstein, Appassionata

[cloches_de_geneve]

I am just curious to collect some opinions on this question. Apart from the ratings, I am particularly interested in the pianists' descriptions of the particular difficulties they encountered.

Thanks,

Cloches

[nicco]

Waldstein, for the length and variety. The Prestissimo part is a pregnant dog.

[pianistimo]

i can actually play the last mov't of the waldstein (according to me) no problems at all.  once i worked out the fingering.  however, the last movement of the moonlight - i always admire people who can play entirely through without messing up somewheres.  look at measures 92-93.  ugh.  entire chords played at lightening speed.  what's the secret here?  if it were me - i'd alternate between fourths and fifths or something.  but, all three notes.  whew.  does anyone actually play this?  was this a mistake of beethoven's?  it doesn't seem very pianistic.  it's like he let brahms in the door for a minute.  slowing it down here on purpose?  particularly between the fourth eighth note (second beat - second eighth) and the first eighth of the third beat.  you have A C# F# to G# B E.  how do others approach these two measures?

i've never played the ending to the opus 109 - but it seems that it is quite lyrical.  thus, to me, pretty ok if you make your andante not a fast andante.  looks like you DO have some 32nd notes to deal with but beethoven is such a good teacher.  he really sets u up to just keep on going with these at measure 164 by adding just one note to the trill - making it a set of 9.  is this what a lot of pianists do?  or am i crazy?  do you keep 8  - 32nd notes here? what is typically done here?

i suppose an argument for keeping it eight - thirty-second notes would be that at measure 169 we are back at 8 definately.  if you keep 8 through measures 164- 168 - this is definately a tough spot.  i mean - i can divide the beats - but it must take some practice to get this to be fast and smooth.

[pianowelsh]

Sorry..but I dont really care....All these sonatas should in an ideal world be studied..hey are all of PRIME importance.

[invictious]

They all have different difficulties, and it's really up to the performer.
Some may find the quick ascending arpeggios a pain, some find it a pain to interpret the piece properly or whatever.

[cygnusdei]

I thought it was obvious that Op. 57 finale is the most difficult!

[rohansahai]

i think we can get a true picture only if someone has played all of them ...i have played the waldstein (still learning the appasionata). but, there are certain reasons why I think that the waldstein might be more difficult atleast than the moonlight and op. 109:
1. Op. 109 - trills + melody etc... are present in the waldstein, though only in the right hand.
2. moonlight - broken chords - also there in the waldstein (the killer passage just before the presto) ...
So, if you can play the waldstein, which obviously means you can do the trills and broken chords, you shouldn't have any problems with these two, if you put in a bit of practice.
Appasionata is entirely different though ...you need a lot of stamina and there's almost no relief.
It is a fight between waldstein and appasionata in my opinion, the other 2 would be in the slightly lower bracket 'technically'.
(I'm not at all considering the 'musical' and interpretative sides in this analysis. That included, would make op. 109 really difficult).

[opus10no2]

Speed defines the difficulty.

[rohansahai]

Speed defines the difficulty.

heh..not always:
Rach op. 23-5 (Alla breve) >more difficult than Tchaikovsky: Russian Dance frm nutcracker (Presto).
etc etc etc.

[opus10no2]

Play the Tchaikovsky faster, and then it's more difficult.

[dnephi]

Harzh

[imbetter]

i can actually play the last mov't of the waldstein (according to me) no problems at all.  once i worked out the fingering.  however, the last movement of the moonlight - i always admire people who can play entirely through without messing up somewheres.  look at measures 92-93.  ugh.  entire chords played at lightening speed.  what's the secret here?  if it were me - i'd alternate between fourths and fifths or something.  but, all three notes.  whew.  does anyone actually play this?  was this a mistake of beethoven's?  it doesn't seem very pianistic.  it's like he let brahms in the door for a minute.  slowing it down here on purpose?  particularly between the fourth eighth note (second beat - second eighth) and the first eighth of the third beat.  you have A C# F# to G# B E.  how do others approach these two measures?

i've never played the ending to the opus 109 - but it seems that it is quite lyrical.  thus, to me, pretty ok if you make your andante not a fast andante.  looks like you DO have some 32nd notes to deal with but beethoven is such a good teacher.  he really sets u up to just keep on going with these at measure 164 by adding just one note to the trill - making it a set of 9.  is this what a lot of pianists do?  or am i crazy?  do you keep 8  - 32nd notes here? what is typically done here?

i suppose an argument for keeping it eight - thirty-second notes would be that at measure 169 we are back at 8 definately.  if you keep 8 through measures 164- 168 - this is definately a tough spot.  i mean - i can divide the beats - but it must take some practice to get this to be fast and smooth.

i play the entire sonata

[kriskicksass]

I play Opus 109 (well, I've only performed the first movement so far, but I've been working on the other two for about a year), and lemme tell you, the hard variation isn't the trill one. Try the march variation in double counterpoint. It's a nightmare!

I don't play any of the other three, so no vote from me.

[invictious]

Actually, speed DOES determine the difficult.
if you do the ascending arpeggios in Grave speed, then of course it's easier than the Waldztein sonata at prestissimo.

[phil39]

it's a close thing - they all have something evil in them (Moonlight= the octave trills, getting the arpeggio work crisp, Appasionata=endless semiquavers at speed, and hard to synchronize the hands perfectly, Waldstein= 8ve glissandos, trills).. but i would say the Waldstein gets my vote. my reason...
simply because it's the poorest piece musically of the 4. that recurring melody and all the arpeggio passages are very banal if we are to be honest, UNLESS it's all phrased extremely beautifully and you have masterly fingerwork throughout. you hear so many people 'wrestling' with the trilly-scaley episodes of that 'great melody' (excuse my sarcasm), it's just like bashing an etude that they can't quite manage. i think only a true pro can bring it off with beauty and sounding like they are not 'fighting a technical problem'.
it may seem strange to say. but it's almost Mozartian in the sense that the music is very exposed and there is 'nowhere to hide' technically