scale fingerings -orthodox vs unorthodox

[andreperez]

Hi,

I have read the scale posts by bernhard, and was wondering if you should know both the orthodox and unorthodox fingerings of the scales. 

Also, if your teacher asks you to learn the scale from a print, which contains the orthodox fingerings, what usually happens when you bring up unorthodox fingerings.  Does he/she make you do the orthodox fingerings, or is open and understands, or already knows, the unorthodox fingerings? 

I am really just confused about which fingerings to learn the scales.  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

[rc]

The 'orthodox' fingering that I learned from my teacher and was also printed in the little technique book I got, was the same as the 'unorthodox' fingering Bernhard listed.

I've never heard of anything else, heh.  Have you?  The only thing I can think up is to use the same fingering for every scale no matter where it begins, but that just seems ridiculous.  I've read that pre-Bach they would tend to not use the thumbs, and had some weird fingering patterns.

[andreperez]

The fingerings I learned back in the day were from hannon.  the fingerings from this post, and of which i have tried, do actually feel better:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756


are these the fingerings most everyone uses?  I am playing a piece in C minor right now, and the fingerings that are in my print are the standard 54321 321 4321 321

The fingering in the link above is for C minor:
Rh: 234 123 1234 123 12
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

I can play my scales faster and with more accuracy with this fingering, but i am wondering who else practices using these fingerings, and has anyone brought this to the attention of their piano teacher.  If you have, what was his/her response?

Thanks,
AP

[danny elfboy]

I am playing a piece in C minor right now, and the fingerings that are in my print are the standard 54321 321 4321 321

The fingering in the link above is for C minor:
Rh: 234 123 1234 123 12
Lh: 21 321 4321 321 432

The second fingering is superior ... for a bunch of simple universal facts: fourth finger shares a tendon with the third finger and it's fast to remember something is consistent and doesn't keep changing

Good luck finding a teacher that doesn't go in a power trip when you suggest an "alternative" method "you" found "yourself" from an "internet forum"

[andreperez]

haha, Thanks for the response!  So how would you handle a situation where the teacher is not open to the alternative fingerings?  Use the orthodox while in lessons, and practice the unorthodox ones at home?  Find a new teacher who also reads these forums? =)  Go into a debate about why the fingerings I found on an internet forum are  superior to the suggested ones in the book? Has anyone actually had this experience w/ their teacher?  Thanks again for responding, these forums are great!  I can't wait till i can offer some useful advice!

[rc]

I guess I didn't read that thread close enough, but I wonder if Bernhard made a typo there? 

The LH is fine (actually, you could replace the initial 21 with 54 to save having to move the hand a position, which would wind up being the orthodox fingering, heh), but the RH doesn't look right - following that fingering I wind up with my thumb playing the Bb:

2(C) 3(D) 4(Eb) 1(F) 2(G) 3(Ab) 1(Bb) 

This is different from his recommendation for playing Eb scale, if we were to keep his fingerings for the Eb scale in Cm we'd get...  The orthodox fingering!  (with the exception of starting the LH with 21 instead of 54)

Does the fingering with your thumb on Bb really work better, or am I just reading this wrong?

[andreperez]

I believe I confused you because I didn't specify which minor scale this was.  That is the fingering for c minor harmonic.   The harmonic scale has B as a natural.

The post from the link above does not give the fingerings for C minor natural.  Since Cm harmonic doesn't use Bb, it is easier to bring the thumb under the Ab. 

Any guesses on the Cm natural and melodic scales? 
I'm guessing the Cm natural and melodic is normal fingering, 123 12345.  This is prioritizing the 4th finger on Bb.

What does everyone else think?

[rc]

Oh I see! hahah, my bad, it makes sense then.  I learned the orthodox fingering then, and that fingering from Bernhard does feel better.  I couldn't think of any useful alternative fingering for natural and melodic than the normal fingering.  I won't argue the unorthodox fingering, it speaks for itself.

Anyways, I've come to my teacher with different fingerings than in the book and different ideas I've come across on the internet and in books and he's pretty cool with it...  The first few times I sensed a little resistance/distaste, but it's no big deal.  A teacher ought to be glad when a student is doing their own independant research.

I don't think it would be a good idea to play different fingerings at lessons from what you would rather be doing, that sounds like unnecessary confusion, the unorthodox fingering is definitely more comfortable so use it!  You could probably expect some resistance from your teacher (most will naturally put up resistance to the unknown), you may have to debate it.  It's not something you should have to switch teachers over.

I wouldn't worry about it, but I also don't know your teacher, heh.

[cloches_de_geneve]

In his Technical Excercises (not to be confused with the Transcendental Etudes) Liszt gives his detailed fingerings for each single scale in major and minor. I suppose these are the classical or traditional fingerings. If Liszt thought that there was a better fingering to mastering scales, we can be pretty confident that he would have let us know about it.

So, what worked for the greatest pianist ever should be good enough for us too, I guess. This being said, everyone is of course entitled to his/her own experiments and preferences.

[mephisto]

In his Technical Excercises (not to be confused with the Transcendental Etudes) Liszt gives his detailed fingerings for each single scale in major and minor. I suppose these are the classical or traditional fingerings. If Liszt thought that there was a better fingering to mastering scales, we can be pretty confident that he would have let us know about it.

I have extreme respect for Liszt but in all honesty none of us have ever heard him play.

[andreperez]

What fingerings do all of the forum users use?  It would be interesting to see this as a poll.

[rc]

I wish I could give you a definitive answer to which is better to learn Andre, but that's beyond my current experience.

To speculate: since most music doesn't contain such straight scales these fingerings will be more applicable for use in exam situations.  The Bernhard fingering fits the hand better...  One advantage of orthodox is using the same fingering for most scales - less to think about (the difference between harmonic, melodic and natural is a finger stretch).

In the end, I'm going to agree with Cloches:

everyone is of course entitled to his/her own experiments and preferences.

I happened to learn orthodox, but I haven't run into any problems because of it so far, and I figure that if I do it wouldn't be a big deal to adapt to another fingering.

[ted]

I wasn't taught scales so I worked out fingerings for myself. Later on I found that my fingerings mostly coincided with the "orthodox" ones aside from certain positions in the double-note scales, e.g. thirds, which I had concocted to better suit the size and shape of my hands.

However, as rc rightly says, how often does music involve just going up and down in the same pattern ? Even in pieces where scales do occur, for example the beginning of Mazeppa or in the Ab polonaise, they are usually altered in ways which necessitate rethinking fingering from scratch anyway. 

Once in the area of improvisation, I find the use of ordinary scales and other conventional playing forms too uninteresting musically. The natural inclination is to break them up into spontaneous, irregular sequences, put extra notes in, leave some out and so on. Fortunately, there is no correlation between difficulty of fingering and quality of resulting sound, so an easy scale formation conceived on the fly is likely to sound more striking than something worked out.