What is a Neapolian 6th?

[keyofc]

Who can describe it in the least amount of words?
I found a whole chapter dedicated to it - and gave up.
My guess - its just a guess that is a Major 6th on a Flat 2 chord

am I close?

[counterpoint]

There are two ways to look at the neapolitan chord.

1. It's a Subdominant chord  The third is lowered and the quint is replaced by a lowered sixth

2. Imagine a major triad on the lowered second of the scale. Then take the basenote away 

[jlh]

More specifically, it is a subdominant substitution, as it is an altered ii chord, and is similar to the ii chord in that it resolves to the V -- sometimes directly, sometimes after intermediate chords in the predominant section have been played. 

For example, the ii in C Major would be D-F-A, but this is a chromatically altered chord, the root of which is the FLAT ii -- in this case the root would be Db.  So the Neapolitan chord in C Major would be Db-F-Ab.  The Roman numeral for this chord is traditionally N.  Conventionally this chord is in first inversion, so if this is the case, it would be N6.  The resolution would be G Major.

[mike_lang]

To add one more detail regarding its application in music history, the Neapolitan sixth was most often found in the minor mode, for the reason that the b6 is already present in minor.  As was already said, it is most often found in first inversion, so that though it does not alter the fundamental bass of the progression, it adds a quite distinct predominant color.

[steve jones]

I think of it as a modified subdominant.

SJ

[keyofc]

Counterpoint,
What is a quint?

[keyofc]

Thanks everyone -
I know what a Neapolitan chord is, but not a Neapolitan 6th.
In other words, if I'm in G Major, I believe a Neapolitan chord is a Ab Major chord..

By reading the replies I'm getting the feeling the N6th is the same thing.
Is that true?
And the reason its called a 6th is because if you're playing it in the first inversion most of the time - you have the interval of a 6th?
Is that what you mean?

[ramseytheii]

Thanks everyone -
I know what a Neapolitan chord is, but not a Neapolitan 6th.
In other words, if I'm in G Major, I believe a Neapolitan chord is a Ab Major chord..

By reading the replies I'm getting the feeling the N6th is the same thing.
Is that true?
And the reason its called a 6th is because if you're playing it in the first inversion most of the time - you have the interval of a 6th?
Is that what you mean?

Neapolitan 6th is just a Neapolitan in first inversion, so in G major, it would have C in the bass.   The full figure would be 6-3, since you have intervals of a third (E-flat) and sixth (A-flat).

Walter Ramsey

[counterpoint]

I know what a Neapolitan chord is, but not a Neapolitan 6th.

Yes, Neapolitan 6th is a chord, not an interval.

[keyofc]

Thanks guys,

So if you were having a test - and they asked you to play a Neaopolitan chord, would you play the first inversion of a flat two chord of your given key?

[jlh]

I'd play it in root position.  N6 is a designation for Neapolitan chords because of the frequency first inversion is encountered.

[keyofc]

Thanks Jh!

[counterpoint]

I'd play it in root position.  N6 is a designation for Neapolitan chords because of the frequency first inversion is encountered.

But if you play it in "root position" - where is the 6th 

You could say that Db is the Neapolitan Scale iin C Major, but the Neapolitan Chord is the chord with the bass note F.

[diedel]

I hope this helps:

https://www.teoria.com/tutorials/hf/6nap.htm

[jlh]

But if you play it in "root position" - where is the 6th 

You could say that Db is the Neapolitan Scale iin C Major, but the Neapolitan Chord is the chord with the bass note F.

There is no 6th if you play it if root position.  There is only a 6th if you play it in first inversion -- bass note to top note = 6th interval.

[counterpoint]

There is no 6th if you play it if root position.  There is only a 6th if you play it in first inversion -- bass note to top note = 6th interval.

The root note of F Ab Db (S6 in C Major) is F, not Db.
It's a subdominant chord. The root note (=F) is doubled, which would be very bad, when it was really the first inversion of a chord. Bass notes of first inversions are never doubled in baroque music

[jlh]

The root note of F Ab Db (S6 in C Major) is F, not Db.
It's a subdominant chord. The root note (=F) is doubled, which would be very bad, when it was really the first inversion of a chord. Bass notes of first inversions are never doubled in baroque music

Um... not following you here.  What is an S6?  I always thought it was a Yamaha piano model, not a chord. 

F-Ab-Db is a Db chord, and Db is the root.  Yes it has subdominant function, as it leads to the dominant, but the ROOT is nevertheless Db, not F.  F is the bass note.

[ramseytheii]

The root note of F Ab Db (S6 in C Major) is F, not Db.
It's a subdominant chord. The root note (=F) is doubled, which would be very bad, when it was really the first inversion of a chord. Bass notes of first inversions are never doubled in baroque music

You are using confusing terminology.  The bass note is F, however the root is D-flat.  A root is the tone from which the chord is derived; the "F" is the third in the chord, the A-flat the fifth. 

I also have never seen S6, but the chord you describe is adequately called N6, N standing for Neapolitan.  If you mean a subdominant chord, a subdominant in the key of C is F - A - E, F major.

Walter Ramsey

[counterpoint]

You are using confusing terminology.  The bass note is F, however the root is D-flat.  A root is the tone from which the chord is derived; the "F" is the third in the chord, the A-flat the fifth. 

What I explained is exactly what we learned in music university 30 years ago. I don't think, they have changed it in the meantime.

The N6 is a chord on the 4th step of the scale, it's a MINOR chord and it's fifth is replaced by a minor sixth. The bass note = the root note. I don't discuss this.

(The S6 was a mistake of me, but it's a Subdominant-6 chord anyway)

[jlh]

What I explained is exactly what we learned in music university 30 years ago. I don't think, they have changed it in the meantime.

The N6 is a chord on the 4th step of the scale, it's a MINOR chord and it's fifth is replaced by a minor sixth. The bass note = the root note. I don't discuss this.

(The S6 was a mistake of me, but it's a Subdominant-6 chord anyway)

Well, I wasn't in a university 30 years ago, so I can't speak to your accuracy on what you learned.  However, I'm a music grad student currently in a music university, so I can speak to what is considered correct terminology and functional harmony now.

The N6 is not a subdominant chord.  It has subdominant FUNCTION because it prepares for dominant progression.  The chord is not built on the 4th scale degree -- it is build on the flat-2 scale degree.  It is a MAJOR chord through and through, and not a minor chord.  Another way to write the N6 is bII6.  Perhaps you're confusing the N6 with augmented 6th chords, such as Gr6, Fr6 and It6?  Those are build on the sharp-4th scale degree.

[counterpoint]

It hopefully gets clearer now.


A GUIDE TO THE TERMINOLOGY OF GERMAN HARMONY

directly readable as html:

https://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:vV5wYMO79hIJ:faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/Papers/PubPapers/GermanHarmony.pdf+neapolitan+riemann&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=de


download as PDF-File:

https://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/Papers/PubPapers/GermanHarmony.pdf

[jlh]

The article pretty much rushes past the N⁶ without giving it much thought.  It is also a bit confusing and incomplete in its treatment of this chord.  The author is attempting to simplify the terminology by only offering one possible definition.

Yes, You COULD look at the chord as an altered minor-mode subdominant, but that would require altering the chord to the point where it doesn't really describe the chord origin or root.  Since the N⁶ normally is found in minor mode, the subdominant F-A^b-C is definitely minor, but by altering the C to become D^b there is really no good way to analyse the chord by traditional means using this approach.  Also, predominant and subdominant are not exactly the same thing.

Another way to look at this chord is that it is a substitution for the ii^o6 in the progression i- ii^o6-V-i and so it creates a more colorful progression as i-N⁶-V-i. 

There was the question about doubling:  The third of N⁶ is doubled.  It is the subdominant tone and the only tonal scale degree in the chord (unless you are in minor mode).

[ramseytheii]

What I explained is exactly what we learned in music university 30 years ago. I don't think, they have changed it in the meantime.

The N6 is a chord on the 4th step of the scale, it's a MINOR chord and it's fifth is replaced by a minor sixth. The bass note = the root note. I don't discuss this.

(The S6 was a mistake of me, but it's a Subdominant-6 chord anyway)

Sorry you don't "discuss" this, but you're contradicting yourself.  A "6" chord will never have a root in the bass, because the definition of a "6" chord is that the third is in the bass, and the root is a 6th above the third. 

Walter Ramsey

[counterpoint]

Sorry you don't "discuss" this, but you're contradicting yourself.  A "6" chord will never have a root in the bass, because the definition of a "6" chord is that the third is in the bass, and the root is a 6th above the third. 

Walter Ramsey

Okay, I want to stop this discussion now. I am aware, that harmonic functions are looked from another standpoint if you live in germany or if you live elsewhere. It's interesting to know about these differences, but there will be no right or wrong on either side.


A "6" chord will never have a root in the bass

That's contrary to what we learned. Sixte ajoutee means, that the sixt is added to the subdominant chord (the root keeps the same). If you then omit the fifth of this chord, you get a subdominant 6 chord, the root note of this chord is still the bass note. We learned it that way.

[jlh]

OK I see the problem now!!!

We're NOT talking about the same chord!! 

You're talking about a chord with the 6th scale degree as an ADDED harmony, so that in C Major you ADD the 6th to the subdominant and omit the 5th scale degree?  So, the subdominant root will then be F in C major, and the other notes of the chord are A and D??  Am I right?

This is NOT an N⁶ chord or even related to it.  Sorry to say, but the 6th you're talking about is completely different than the 6th we're talking about.  The 6th we're talking about has nothing to do with adding any notes to any chords, but rather it ONLY describes what inversion any given chord is in. 

A root position triad stacked in thirds (such as C-E-G) in C Major is designated as a I⁵₃, the numbers to the side of the roman numeral describe the relationship of the bass note with the notes above it, in this case the interval between the bass note and the top note is a 5th and between the other note is a 3rd.  This means the chord is in ROOT position.  First inversion of that same chord is noted as I⁶₃, or simply I⁶, and the same logic applies for those numbers as well. 

Enter bII⁶, otherwise notated as N⁶.  The uppercase roman numeral means the triad is MAJOR, and the flat sign before it means the root is flatted.  The ⁶ means, as in the last paragraph, that it is in first inversion.  Therefore, in C Major, the flat 2nd scale degree is D-flat, and if you make a major triad becomes Db-F-Ab.  First inversion is F-Ab-Db.

There are no added notes, and the 6th scale degree is nowhere to be found.

The root is the flat 2nd scale degree, and in first inversion you will never have the root as the bass note.  It is impossible!  The definition of first inversion is that the root is not the bass note, but rather the 3rd scale degree is the bass note, since the root has been moved from the bass to the top note, and is now a 6th interval above the new bass note.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. 

Josh

[counterpoint]

OK I see the problem now!!!

We're NOT talking about the same chord!! 

You're talking about a chord with the 6th scale degree as an ADDED harmony, so that in C Major you ADD the 6th to the subdominant and omit the 5th scale degree?  So, the subdominant root will then be F in C major, and the other notes of the chord are A and D??  Am I right?

This is NOT an N⁶ chord or even related to it.  Sorry to say, but the 6th you're talking about is completely different than the 6th we're talking about.  The 6th we're talking about has nothing to do with adding any notes to any chords, but rather it ONLY describes what inversion any given chord is in. 

Oh please, let's stop now.
I'm talking about the Neapolitan 6 chord, which is in C Major F Ab Db
F is the root, Ab is the minor third, and Db is the minor sixt.
That's the terminology of Hugo Riemann (and besides that - of Arnold Schoenberg)

[jlh]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.   

You have the correct notes for the Neapolitan, but you are completely wrong about what the root of the chord is and how the chord is constructed.

1) The root is Db, not F

2) The 3rd is F and so Ab is the 5th, not the 3rd

3) There is no added 6th to the chord.  The 6 does not mean you add a 6th.

I don't know how Hugo Riemann analysed the N⁶, but I've spent 8 full semesters studying music theory (without even counting the years prior to university) and have a pretty strong background in Schenkerian analysis. 

I am happy to assist when there are people willing to learn and when there is an open dialog.  You have proven that you are not willing to do either.  You just want to state something erroneous (maybe you still don't realize how it's wrong?) as fact and then try to stop the discussion before you are corrected.  You are relying on something you perhaps even misunderstood 30 years ago as fact.  I wouldn't probably be as sure of myself as you are after a 30 year absence of study.

[counterpoint]

Here is the definition from the Metzler Musiklexikon

(sorry - it's in german)

[mike_lang]

Oh please, let's stop now.
I'm talking about the Neapolitan 6 chord, which is in C Major F Ab Db
F is the root, Ab is the minor third, and Db is the minor sixt.
That's the terminology of Hugo Riemann (and besides that - of Arnold Schoenberg)

Is it not Neapolitan in the second phrase of the 1st movement of Appassionata?  Bb is not the root here, yet contextually it is certainly Neapolitan.  Therefore, the Neapolitan 6th (6/3) is an inversion.  As we have said, it is only called the Neapolitan 6th because it was most commonly found in first inversion, built on scale degree four as a substitute predominant.  Whomever wrote that it was an alteration of the ii6(dim.) chord in minor with the third doubled put it best.

[ramseytheii]

That's the terminology of Hugo Riemann (and besides that - of Arnold Schoenberg)

I only add this to provide information to those interested, not to be argumentative.
Schoenberg in "Structural Functions of Harmony" gives a lot of thought over the meaning of the Neapolitan, and first mentions it in a "Chart of the Regions;" a chart he devised to show the distance between tonal regions from center outwards.  He calls it "Np," and later when filling out the chart in terms of C major refers to it as "D-flat."

In his view, the Neapolitan is a chord "borrowed" from the minor subdominant region (rather then describing a chord in its own terms, ie Dflat-F-A-flat, he always tried to justify it by relating it to the main scale); in iv, the chord we call Neapolitan would be VI. (in f minor, D-flat major).  He considered a non-inverted Neapolitan chord a rare occasion, and thus wrote, "The tones of the Neapolitan sixth chord appear occasionally in root position.  It will then be called Neapolitan triad."

Since Schoenberg analyzed chords as what region(s) they came from, he could often give the name of Neapolitan to a chord that wasn't based on the second degree, for instance in one example he describes a "Neapolitan on the sixth," meaning sixth tone of the scale, thus Aflat-C-Eflat.  In C major, traditional teaching might be more prone to describe this chord's origins as the parallel tonic minor, , but since the chord's voice-leading goes to a V-6/4 he gave it the Neapolitan title.

His way of naming chords can be sometimes confusing, because he has a habit of pointing out the various origins of chords, from various regions, so they tend to be able to hold several different names.  But I think it rests on how they resolve, in other words the goals of the progression, in how he names them.

I couldn't find Neapolitan in the index of Harmonielehre, and didn't want to flip through it, but if anyone knows where he talks about it there, please tell!

Walter Ramsey

[jlh]

Thanks for the info Walter!

I can see how this could get confusing, especially since terminology has changed considerably in the last 60 years.  C to Ab triads (and those related) are pretty common, as they share the relationship of a chromatic mediant.  I'm guessing (correct me if wrong)C-Ab could be analysed as an N6 of the dominant, as a secondary chord?  Of course it would depend on where if at all the music has been modulated to and how the chord resolves.