truth or feel good?

[Bob]

Is it better to make a student feel good, or to tell them the truth about their playing?

[zheer]

  Depends on the students strengh of character, tell the truth so long as it does not kill them.

[thalberg]

Do both.  Tell them where they've improved, how you know they've worked hard, find something nice that they did.  But also tell them that the piece would ideally be played in such-and-such a manner and tempo if they were going to take it before a discriminating audience.

[rach n bach]

Thalberg is right

Find the good things they did, and then tell them the problems.  You might want to end with something like "but I can see that you have tried practicing." or something like that, the good old samwich method yaknow..

RnB

[keyofg]

As long as you feel good at the recital - you're probably doing ok!

[rc]

Do both.  Tell them where they've improved, how you know they've worked hard, find something nice that they did.  But also tell them that the piece would ideally be played in such-and-such a manner and tempo if they were going to take it before a discriminating audience.

I'd call that the truth - both sides of it.

But what if there is no improvement to comment on?

Then there's a dilemma, either they're not practicing or they're getting no results in spite of hard work.  I would hate to accuse someone of slacking if they're actually trying their best.

When I've been in that situation before I held my judgement, but as the stagnation continued, excuses became more frequent, my patience got thin.  I couldn't help but think he wasn't putting in any effort, eventually the pressure got too much and I got angry.

Instead I'm thinking truth is still the way, but to take care of a situation before it becomes a problem.  If the truth is you're seeing no improvement, then that's what to report...  In a problem solving way, not angry.  Something like "I'm not seeing any progress, how was your practice this week?" - that would give a good place to work and adapt from.

[stevehopwood]

Do both.  Tell them where they've improved, how you know they've worked hard, find something nice that they did.  But also tell them that the piece would ideally be played in such-and-such a manner and tempo if they were going to take it before a discriminating audience.

I agree.

We can tell even the most sensitive student how to improve their performance if we do it in the right way.

Here is how not to do it: "Listen deadhead, that there is a dotted-crotchet-quaver rhythm. You've got it wrong again. Don't come back to me until you have got it right." Ok, I know nobody here would speak to a student like this; I am using exaggeration for humour.

The kind approach that both avoids tears and retains students: "See this dotted-crotchet-quaver rhythm? You playing will sound even better if you can make the dc a bit longer. Think it through in your head, then I will play it for you and you will hear how much better it sounds; you can see if you worked it out correctly."

It is easy to be both critical and kind.

 

[timothy42b]

I'd call that the truth - both sides of it.

But what if there is no improvement to comment on?

Then there's a dilemma, either they're not practicing or they're getting no results in spite of hard work.  I would hate to accuse someone of slacking if they're actually trying their best.

Two thoughts:
Children differ enormously in how sensitive they are to criticism.  One of mine is hypersensitive and will dissolve into tears at a raised eyebrow.  The other lets almost anything roll off her back.  To approach them both the same seems to be a mistake. 

Your either/or is too restrictive.  There can be other possibilities.  If they are working hard and not making progress, then the teacher is wrong. 

[mattgreenecomposer]

Depends on how long you want to keep them...lol


mattgreenecomposer.com

[rc]

Two thoughts:
Children differ enormously in how sensitive they are to criticism.  One of mine is hypersensitive and will dissolve into tears at a raised eyebrow.  The other lets almost anything roll off her back.  To approach them both the same seems to be a mistake. 

Your either/or is too restrictive.  There can be other possibilities.  If they are working hard and not making progress, then the teacher is wrong. 

I don't see what other possibilities there could be.  All I said was practice or no practice, and I figure it'd be better to ask and find out.

[stevehopwood]

I don't see what other possibilities there could be.  All I said was practice or no practice, and I figure it'd be better to ask and find out.

Thing is, kids will generally tell you what they think you want to hear. The more sensitive they are, the more desperate they are to avoid criticism.

I love it when a kid comes to a lesson and says, "Steve, sorry, but I haven't done much practise this week because......................" It shows I have won their trust.

It also saves me a lot of effort, trying to work out why their playing is rubbish. 

 

[hyrst]

If you can't hear progress, it is important to ask how much practice has been done - but never in an accusing tone.  It is because a student will become frustrated if they work hard and get nowhere.  Chances are they will feel some guilt if they have not practiced - if hey feel time pressure, go through some economical practice strategies.  If they have worked hard and not improved, they need to learn different strategies.  If they don't think they need to improve, show them some alternative ways of making it even more interesting to listen to and also record their playing for them.

I am often saddened and alarmed when I hear from about half my transfer-in students that they have been yelled at or scolded by their last teacher.  Some of them are very tense and even cringe for a while until they learn I never raise my voice and don't even growl.  I think it does so much harm when teachers behave like that.

On the other hand, part of my job is telling my students what they need to work on and how they might go about it.  I wouldn't be a teacher if I didn't do that.

[rc]

Thing is, kids will generally tell you what they think you want to hear. The more sensitive they are, the more desperate they are to avoid criticism.

I love it when a kid comes to a lesson and says, "Steve, sorry, but I haven't done much practise this week because......................" It shows I have won their trust.

It also saves me a lot of effort, trying to work out why their playing is rubbish. 

 

How do you go from being told what you want to hear to having enough trust to hear the truth?

[stevehopwood]

How do you go from being told what you want to hear to having enough trust to hear the truth?

Hmmmm. Not sure what I meant. No doubt I had a link in my head but have no idea what it was. Looking at the post time, it was late at night, so the post was probably a result of muddled thinking. Sorry about that.

 

[rc]

hahah, yeah I get muddled when it's late too.  Reading off a screen for too long tends to fry my brain.  Well, as two different thoughts they make sense

In that case, I'm not too sure what would be a good way to deal with somebody who tells me what I want to hear.  I guess it wouldn't work too well to press the issue too much, maybe just move on.

[stevehopwood]

In that case, I'm not too sure what would be a good way to deal with somebody who tells me what I want to hear.  I guess it wouldn't work too well to press the issue too much, maybe just move on.

That is what I do. Keep the kids happy, is what I say. They are more likely to be cooperative. 

 

[chocolatedog]

Hmmmm. Not sure what I meant. No doubt I had a link in my head but have no idea what it was. Looking at the post time, it was late at night, so the post was probably a result of muddled thinking. Sorry about that.

 

Or too much whisky?? 

[stevehopwood]

Or too much whisky?? 

Shhhhsh 

[fizzy]

I love it when a kid comes to a lesson and says, "Steve, sorry, but I haven't done much practise this week because......................" It shows I have won their trust.

A classmate told that to my choir professor (his excuse was he forgot). She was upset, but more sad about it. She said that coming in and telling her that was very inconsiderate and disrespectful. When she was a student, her teacher made her leave if she hadn't practiced, no matter the excuse. She feels that if you want to be taught, you have to put in your part of the practicing. Not practicing means that you don't care enough about it.

I tend to agree with her, and I've had my share of students who don't practice. But I can see you're side of it as well.

Two thoughts:
Children differ enormously in how sensitive they are to criticism.  One of mine is hypersensitive and will dissolve into tears at a raised eyebrow.  The other lets almost anything roll off her back.  To approach them both the same seems to be a mistake.

You are absolutely right about that. Everybody is different. Despite the talk of coddling kids because they have low self-esteem, there are some who have plenty of self-esteem and could care less about what you think. It's important that the teacher be able to understand the personality of the student and teach to their strengths and weaknesses.

I think there are definitely some personality combos that can't work together, ie if the teacher is brusque and to the point (not intending to be mean) but the student is very sensitive, it probably wouldn't work out.

[stevehopwood]

A classmate told that to my choir professor (his excuse was he forgot). She was upset, but more sad about it. She said that coming in and telling her that was very inconsiderate and disrespectful. When she was a student, her teacher made her leave if she hadn't practiced, no matter the excuse. She feels that if you want to be taught, you have to put in your part of the practicing. Not practicing means that you don't care enough about it.

I tend to agree with her..........

It is a point of view, and one held by many.

I usually forget the international nature of this forum. I ought to precede my postings with this: my views reflect aspects of teaching students from a tiny part of the UK; the nature of teachers' students and their parents will not often be the same. I might try to tidy up the wording and add it to my signature.

The first priority of the parents of the kids I teach is this; they must be happy in their lesson and enjoy it. Yes, they want their children to learn and will not continue to pay for lessons if this is not happening, but this learning must be acquired happily. Luckily, this reflects my view, so we are a cheerful bunch.

I do not understand this 'respect' thing. We hear much in the UK about 'mutual respect between teachers and pupils'. Why should I respect my pupils? Apart from staying alive, being rather pleasant and keeping out of trouble, what have they achieved that I should respect? I keep my respect for those individuals who earn it, through courage or recognisable achievement.

I adore my pupils. I love spending time with them. They could ask me to do anything legal and I would refuse only if it were impossible. If that is 'respect', then so be it. It merely means that I use the term in a different context.

Why should my pupils respect me? How can they possible even begin to comprehend my achievements as a pianist and piano teacher? They have as much understanding of that as an ant has of the construction of the Taj Mahal. They are fond of me and enjoy coming; I can see that in their faces and hear it in the warmth of their greeting, but respect me? What for? I only see them for 30 minutes a week.

To us piano teachers, a piano lesson whips by in 30 minutes or so, to be followed by the next, then the next....... An individual lesson is no big deal.

This is completely different to the family whose child is having the lesson. Often, the whole evening has to be structured around it, especially if substantial travel is involved in our rural area. The family mealtime may need rearranging; travel arrangements may need to be made for other children doing other activities; last-minute (sometimes the only  ) practise has to be crammed in. Around here, 20-25 minutes each way for travel usually has to be added to the lesson time.

All this is a big deal to the family involved. Imagine how they feel if a child emerges unhappy from the lesson, after all that has gone into setting it up. That is before they start remembering that they pay for it; resentment can kick in quite quickly at that point.

Here are another couple of thoughts for the senders-home, being-sad, being-cross responders to an insufficiently-practised child. Here in the UK, upset a young child and a teacher does not send home a child determined to do better next time in order to avoid 'punishment'; he sends home a child fearful of the next meeting and even less inclined to approach the cause of the fear.

Upset a hormonal teenager here in the UK and you will get either: a hissing, spitting harridan who marches out to her parent\s announcing that he\she is giving up the piano, or: a silent, sulky, withdrawn, uncooperative child who marches out to her parent\s announcing that he\she is giving up the piano.

Here is Steve's method of avoiding doing murder to a child that appears not to have done enough practise. I think, "Hey ho" to myself, give the kid a huge smile and, if the relationship is right for this, a big hug and repeat what I did last week. We usually manage to have a good time.

 

Later edit:
I have just had an idea. How about this for the insufficiently-practised? "Next week, I am going to record your playing and let you listen to it." It might not work the first time, but on subsequent occasions I wonder if the kid might think, "Ouch. I am not going through that again. Better do some practise." 

[danny elfboy]

My teacher used to tell me that she could tell when problems were real or when they were just caused by a non-practicing student.
There have been times that no matter what I needed more time and more analysis to overcome a problem and she could tell that, she would say "I can see you've worked and tried hard, good work just keep working and trying".

But there have been times I didn't feel like practicing (especially near the summer) and I was distracted by television, going at the beach or swimming pool with friends, videogames and so on. And she could tell. She would say "I can see you've not practice at all, it's your problem not mine just practice the next time instead of lazying around all day"

So I believe it's possible to tell whether one has worked but still has problems or has problems because he/she didn't work. It's the difference between "secure but not ready" and "insecure as in <I've never seen this piece/notes before>"

I don't believe at all in anger or harshness though.
Anger, losing your temper, raising your voices are all immature behaviors whether from a young child or an adult. They're the best way to never obtain anything and especially to destroy your original intent and message. There's no kind of information or message that really needs to be expressed with anger or yelling. The only reason why there are adults that believe you can teach things with anger is because they can't control their impulsive emotions and need to find justifications for behaviors that they do understand as unappropriate.

So there's no reason whatsoever to be angry or raise your voice in saying "you haven't studied that's why you have so many problems with this piece"

No matter what, whatever "bring home message" is better received and assimilated when explained with a rational, calm and well articulate tone and friendly attitude.

I want to focus on that "It's your problem, not mine" that my teacher used to tell to me.
It's so true!

A teacher that gets angry at a lazy student seems like to claim that the original goal is not the student enjoy the music-making but the teacher watching the students music-making.
Such attitude easily creates resentment in the student.

But indeed the best way to stimulate a "lazy" student is to remind to him/her that playing the piano was his/her desire, goal and dream. That not practicing and not being able to play the pieces the student loves is just the student hurting himself/herself and not hurting the teacher.

Indeed I can't think of a better sentence said in a friendly manner than "you should care more than I do". But the friendly attitude is very important too.
I believe again that the messages are best understood, accepted and assimilated when they are discussed in a very human way. Authoritarian attitude in something so personal as deep as art brings you nowhere, but trust does. The students problems should be discussed between the teacher and the student in the same way that two male/female friends would discuss their sentimental issues with girls/boys. This entails most of all openess from both parts. The teacher especially must accept she/he may be wrong and the student may be right and there should be no military-like orders just concordances reached together.

[rc]

A classmate told that to my choir professor (his excuse was he forgot). She was upset, but more sad about it. She said that coming in and telling her that was very inconsiderate and disrespectful.

That's odd.  There's a lot of respect and consideration behind admitting a fault.  As a student, sometimes I don't have a lot to show by the lesson.  When that happens it's usually my fault, but sometimes it's circumstance, sometimes my job gets in the way.

[rc]

To us piano teachers, a piano lesson whips by in 30 minutes or so, to be followed by the next, then the next....... An individual lesson is no big deal.

I've always felt that 30 minute lessons were too short.  When I was taking 30 minute lessons it was always so rushed, I like to talk a bit and get to know my teacher, sometimes the greeting will take up 10 of those minutes.  Without that it was still a struggle to fit everything in.  Sometimes I'd learned things my teacher never found out about because we never got around to it, hahah.

An hour was much better for me, we could relax and cover everything.  Of course every student is different, but I wonder if it might benefit the rest as well?

[rc]

I don't believe at all in anger or harshness though.
Anger, losing your temper, raising your voices are all immature behaviors whether from a young child or an adult. They're the best way to never obtain anything and especially to destroy your original intent and message. There's no kind of information or message that really needs to be expressed with anger or yelling. The only reason why there are adults that believe you can teach things with anger is because they can't control their impulsive emotions and need to find justifications for behaviors that they do understand as unappropriate.

I look at anger differently than you are here.  To me, anger has many shades, it's the response to something we don't like.  A teacher can be irked when a student doesn't practice, this slight anger could express calmly, with disappointment, or an overreaction like a tantrum.  If not expressed early, the anger could grow and accumlulate.  Another expression could be to stop caring about the student.

I've found anger could be very effective at getting a point across, some ways are definitely better than others   Unexpressed is the worst of all, it finds a way out eventually.  Most people won't react well to anger in the moment, the time where my supressed anger eventually came out the day was pretty much lost (student wasn't a child BTW), but the student went home and gave it plenty of thought...  My anger was justified, he really was making a habit of not fulfilling his end, and it hasn't been a problem since.  It wasn't the most elegant way, but it got the point across.

[chocolatedog]

I remember once (and only once) having a bad week when I didn't do any practice - school pressure/busy etc and feeling tired. My teacher didn't get angry, he didn't raise his voice, he just said "Well, you're wasting my time, you're wasting your time, and you're wasting your parents' money....." and that made me feel absolutely terrible. (This was 25 years ago - and it still hurts when I remember it....) It worked though.......... (Unfortuntely it was the one single week in my entire childhood/teenage years when I didn't practisefor any other reason than being away on holiday.......I never either before or after that had an entire week with no practice (Steve H if you're reading this - notice the difference between practise with an s and practice with a c ) 

[stevehopwood]

I remember once (and only once) having a bad week when I didn't do any practice - school pressure/busy etc and feeling tired. My teacher didn't get angry, he didn't raise his voice, he just said "Well, you're wasting my time, you're wasting your time, and you're wasting your parents' money....." and that made me feel absolutely terrible. (This was 25 years ago - and it still hurts when I remember it....)

What an horrible way to react. No sympathy? No understanding of the fact that students occasionally (actually, often) have other pressures? All he could do was make you feel terrible?

That is a major failing on your teacher's part, in my view. Perhaps he was in a bad mood that day? If so, he should not have taken his bad mood out on you. Then again, I should not be too unkind. 25 years ago he lacked experience, as I did at the same stage. I said horrible things to pupils 25 years ago.

I have grown up since then. Happily.

 

[stevehopwood]

I thought again about this thread today.

12 year old Tash is a super student. We have spent countless happy hours together.

Last week, Tash said at the start of her lesson, "Sorry Steve, I haven't practied as I should this week. We lost the music and have only just found it again, so I have worked on .......... instead" and played .............. beautifully.

I know this family very well - I have cooked tea for the kids before now (long story). I can well understand how music can go missing.

This week, Tash announced that she had not done much practise because she was revising for school exams, and keeping up with normal homework. I know this school; it is a competetive school perfectly capable of both demanding exam revision and normal homework regimes both at the same time. Lunacy.

I am rather glad that Tash felt able to describe her position, confident that she would not get 'a blast' from me. We had a mutually enjoyable lesson.

That last bit is especially important. Tash's dad had dropped her off and his last words were, "Have a happy lesson." He said this with utter confidence that this was what I had planned for her. The family had been off on a day out in the sun; they were tired, but happy.

Not that I would, but just imagine the reaction if I had 'blasted' this child and sent her out to her parents in tears?

I just enjoyed Tash's confidence in my response to her 'confession'. It takes time and effort to build this sort of rapport. It is well worth building.