Circle of Fifths

[keyofc]

Other than the progression of fourths and fifths,
what other things have you noticed, associations you've made, by studing the circle of fifths?

[Bob]

They're in the theory books.


Close vs. far relationships

the II V I pattern

Other patterns by skipping -- 2 up/down is a whole step is a difference of two accidentals, etc.

Tritones are across from each other.

The three on the bottom that have two different spellings -- B/Cb, F#/Gb, C#/Db.  12 keys, 15 ways to write them.



12 keys, 12 numbers on the clocks....

[keyofc]

Bob, I know you're trying to be helpful  - but I know they are in theory books.

I was just wondering what you notice on your own?

When I teach the circle of fifths - I like to give as many reasons as I can for learning it.
So far - key sigs - and understanding the relative minors quicker
I also notice that the primary chords of a key are all 3 next to each other - something helpful
I know there are a lot more things that people probably notice when looking at them.

I've never thought about the jazz progression ,2,5,1
I'll take a look at it
thanks

[keyofc]

Bob,
I guess I missed part of your post - thanks
Also - I use it mainly for transitions.

It's so easy to have smooth transitions when you play secondary dominants.

I still sometimes get mixed up in thinking backwards with them - but they do work well.

[Bob]

I haven't ever really focused on the circle of the 5ths.  It hasn't ever really seemed "critical."  Still doesn't.


What can you see that you didn't before?  Relationships maybe.

I suppose the most important idea is that you end up where you started -- it's a big circle back to the beginning.

And that there are patterns.  Add a sharp and you're in the key a fifth up.

Maybe it's just me, but the circle seems more like a result and something "that's nice," rather than some critical tool. 

[counterpoint]

The "circle" isn't a circle.

You can go up as much fifths as you like, you will never come to another C. There is only one C

C G D A E H F# C# G# D# A# E# H# Fx Cx Gx etc.

Downwards the same

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb Bbb Ebb Abb Dbb etc.

So the "circle" is a spiral if you want.

[beethoven2]

For major scales:

Order of sharps:  f, c, g, d, a, e, b

(fat cats greet da a e b (or aggrivated elite boogers)  ....stupid, yes I know...but, hey!  It helped me.....)

Order of flats: b, e, a, d, g, c, f

(notice anything interesting?....bead....greatest common factor...)

(making up little ditties really helps)

Okay.  I don't know if this is what you want to know, but it relates to the circle of fifths.....so I'm gonna post it here.  (NOTE: this is just the major circle of fifths)

As you go around the circle, you add on one sharp...once you reach  all seven sharps, you 'switch to flats' and take them off one by one.


The circle is divided into three different areas: c-e, b-c sharp, and a flat - f.

In the C-E area:  the right hand's fourth finger ALWAYS hits the seventh note.  (example: the scale of C - hits B)

the left hand's fourth finger ALWAYS hits the second note. (example: the scale of D - hits E)

In the B-C sharp area: right hand's fourth finger ALWAYS hits A-sharp/B-flat.  (example: scale of B-flat   -   fourth hits B-flat)

left hand's fourth ALWAYS hits G-flat/F-sharp.  (example: scale of c-sharp   -   fourth hits G/flat)

In the last area, the A-flat - F, is abit different.  The key F is played just like area C-E.  (R.H. fourth on the seventh note, L.H. fourth on second note)  But, for A-flat, E-flat, and B-flat scales, the R.H. fourth will be on B-flat, and the L.H. fourth will be on the fourth note of the scale. (example: scale E-flat - L.H. fourth hits A-flat)  On the scale A-flat, you start with your third finger on both hands. (this rule applies also to the scale of E-flat but not B-flat or F)

I found that if you know where your fourth finger goes, the rest of the fingers usually fall into place on their own.

[becca91]

For major scales:

Order of sharps:  f, c, g, d, a, e, b

(fat cats greet da a e b (or aggrivated elite boogers)  ....stupid, yes I know...but, hey!  It helped me.....)

Order of flats: b, e, a, d, g, c, f

(notice anything interesting?....bead....greatest common factor...)

(making up little ditties really helps)

I'll remember your little "ditty". Things like that help me, too.

[keyofc]

Counterpoint,
What do you mean you never come to another C?  Do you mean the same octave?
C -G- D- A- E- B- F#-C#-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C
The "circle" isn't a circle.

You can go up as much fifths as you like, you will never come to another C. There is only one C

C G D A E H F# C# G# D# A# E# H# Fx Cx Gx etc.

Downwards the same

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb Bbb Ebb Abb Dbb etc.

So the "circle" is a spiral if you want.
 
 

[counterpoint]

Counterpoint,
What do you mean you never come to another C?  Do you mean the same octave?

Of course you will arrive at the key on the keyboard, which normally is named C.

But when you add 12 Fifth, you end at H#, not at C 

It's the trick, that you say Db instead of C# when going around the circle. But it's a trick, not reality.

[ted]

Yes, I enjoy thinking about these things and have found for myself many interesting symmetries and properties of the keyboard and its sounds. Nearly all of them stem from the fact that the chromatic scale has the form of a cyclic group of order twelve.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,448.0.html

The major scales form the twelve aggregates of the seven most closely related frequencies, the fifth being seven semitones, prime relative to twelve, hence a circle of fifths exists, but not a circle of thirds, for instance (it splits into three or four separate circles). If the octave were subdivided into 29, the next highest number after 24 which embeds an aurally satisfactory diatonic scale, then all intervals would produce "key circles", simply because 29 is prime.

 

[keyofc]

Ok, Counterpoint!  Now I see what you mean
Ted - I have to think about your post for awhile.....
theory - can't live with it, can't live without it.