Chopin etude op. 10 no. 2

[vlhorowitz]

Does anyone NOT get tired by the third page ? If so, what do you eat ?!

[virtuosic1]

There was too much good info here. Poof

[gyzzzmo]

Not anymore.
But at the start i did get tired at the 3th page.
Though if you 'force' yourself to stay relaxed in your right hand and keep playing the piece alot, you'll notice it gets easier and easier.

Gyzzzmo

[danny elfboy]

Tiredness is never a byproduct of motions
It is when big muscles are concerned becase they bonk (run out of fuel)
This doesn't happen with your forearm muscles (not after 24 hours at least)

So the kind of fatigue you talk about is what I call "opposite fraction" due to accumulation of impulses without resetting
Relaxation and resetting any previous contraction and tension periodically (each bar or each two bars or each three bars) is just necessary
Think of it like breathing.
When you sing you can sing just a limited amount of notes in just one breath
You must expire and catch new breath if you want to go on
If you go on without expiring and catching your breath you become unable to sing and either become fatigue or faint

It's the same identical concept with piano playing only that instead of breathing (the pushing of the plumber in the diaphragm and the catching of air to let the strings vibrate) you have muscular impulses. But the importance of catching your breath every x amount of notes in singing is the same as the importance of resetting your muscles each x amount of notes in playing

That's the key to speed, effortless playing and avoidance of non-natural pain and fatigue (no matter how demanding the piece is, if you don't accumulate unresseted tension and opposed contraction you can't get pain or tired ... bored maybe ... hungry maybe ... no physically tired)

When you learn to reset muscles periodically like you learn to breath in order to sing long pieces you'll noticed that playing demanding pieces far from tiring is refreshing, you feel better and less tired after playing than before!

[nicco]

I'm going to hear all types of criticism, and trolls from every ethnic background will show up to tell you that I know nothing about playing the piano, or anything else for that matter, but I never tire playing 3-4-5 chromatics. It has to do with relaxation, very minute finger motion, just enough to allow the hammer to strike the string, and incorporating a specific wave-like motion of the hand, comprised of more subtle but definite wave-like motions of the wrist and forearm. It's actually a motion of several wave-like, repetitive sequences of motion, carefully coordinated (actually choreographed) independently from the finger strikes of the 3-4-5 fingers to sound the chords while still perfectly executing the 3-4-5 chromatics with a minimum of motion.

For example:

The earth rotates
It also orbits the sun
The sun orbits the galaxy
The galaxy orbits a super cluster of local galaxies
The supercluster is moving in space also.

ergo: The earth is moving in MANY planes, in helix-like fashion.

Here's Chopin's true genius. Not simply the etudes themselves, but beyond the genius of simply the compositions themselves. Each etude is designed to be played with a specific "dance" of the playing mechanism. A specific motion that repeats on each beat (each 4-note group) on the op 10 #2. Each etude is more wave motion specific, that is, necessitating a specific choreography of the elbow, forearm, wrist, and hand CARRYING the fingers to the targets to execute them effortlessly. A dancer couldn't periot if they didn't leap into the air first, right? The idea is for the REST of the playing mechanism to bring the fingers into contact with the proper targets at the proper time with a "dance" of wave-like motion. The proper lift of hand combined with the correct angle of wrist rotation, repeated over and over for each group. This is how playing these was second nature to someone that weighed 108 pounds and was a poor physical specimen. Strength wasn't needed. Relaxation, and the proper "hand-dance". A Sequential undulations of wave-like motions carrying the fingers to their target with the most efficient, minimal of extraneous movement. This is how velocity in ANY activity is attained. Through carefully coordinated movements of the ENTIRE mechanism.

But then, what the hell do I know? Right guys? It's purported that I've been playing them in all keys since Tristano started me on them in that way, in my early teens. But that's probably a load of steaming feces, just like my opinion above, right?

I've studied combative arts since I was 8. Is anyone else here disciplined in a martial art? Are you familiar with the term "kata"?

Kata are a specific pattern of motion used in martial arts. Each form has its own katas, and each kata is designed as an outgrowth for overcoming a specific combative problem. Like a choreographed dance. When two martial arts stuntmen go at it in action movies, those rehearsed motions can be considered kata.

Through economy of motion, undulations of the body are undertaken in order to effectively bring the striking objects (the fists and hands, or in some forms, knees and elbows as well) into contact with your targets. Sound familiar?

I may have my opinions on your recordings, but you do give very good advice, i'll give you that! I also agree about the similarities some forms of martial art and piano playing have. Having enough self-control and knowledge about your whole body is essential.

[ramseytheii]

Nobody answered the second question, that is, what do you eat?

Walter Ramsey

[dnephi]

Nobody answered the second question, that is, what do you eat?

Walter Ramsey

Apparently, they eat soy protein supplements.

[fnork]

danny elfboy,

Interresting post, I understand your point about that it's necessary to rest. However, how to have rests in a piece like op 10 no 2 I don't know - you are after all using the same fingers from the beginning to the end, almost entirely without interruptions. Could you explain further please?

[vlhorowitz]

What Backhaus does with this etude is ridiculous. He could have built a city with fingers 3-4-5 !

[cloches_de_geneve]

danny elfboy,

Interresting post, I understand your point about that it's necessary to rest. However, how to have rests in a piece like op 10 no 2 I don't know - you are after all using the same fingers from the beginning to the end, almost entirely without interruptions. Could you explain further please?

Actually, I wanted to ask the same question. It sounds good "resetting your muscles periodically", but how exactly do you do it?

[dnephi]

You play slowly, with high finger action.  Striking, and relaxing after the strike.  Do a lot of thinking.  Do this with each note as you play.  As you get more adept, you'll be able to relax faster until you instantly relax.  Then, you have practiced quick finger action and you have taught yourself to relax almost continuously.

Daniel

[virtuosic1]

Poof

[m]

You play slowly, with high finger action.  Striking, and relaxing after the strike. 

Every one is different. For some the high fingers help (or at least they think so). I found for myself the high finger action does more harm than good, as this way I'd practice something the way which is CONTRARY to what you will be doing later. I practice this etude with fingers superglued to the keys, for ten million and first time carefully measuring the key depth, and activating it the fastest and most efficient way possible, so all the rest of the time the finger/hand will have time to rest.

I absolutely agree with relaxation as a mental process. Whenever I start playing this etude faster than my mind can think (somewhere around m.m.168) my hands start getting tired. This does not happen with Op10/1, or Op25/11 though, where there are those little rests just enough for the hand to "reset".

Best regards, M

[vlhorowitz]

This is for "Glenn Gould".

[mephisto]

Why is it for Glenn Gould?

[cloches_de_geneve]

What Backhaus does with this etude is ridiculous. He could have built a city with fingers 3-4-5 !

How incredibly boring this recording is -- as so many by WB I am sorry to say...

[vlhorowitz]

Why is it for Glenn Gould?

"G.Gould" asked for this Backhaus recording.

How incredibly boring this recording is -- as so many by WB I am sorry to say...

Well, his etudes aren't as interesting as, say, Cortot's; however, in terms of speed, they must be amongst the fastest. Not to say that speed = transcendental music, or anything.

[mephisto]

How incredibly boring this recording is -- as so many by WB I am sorry to say...

He is one the greatest pianists I have ever heard.

btw Horowitz do you mean that the real Glenn Gould said fine things about that Backhaus recording? Sorry for not understanding what you mean.

[vlhorowitz]

lol. Ok - some person on this forum asked me for the Backhaus recording. Their username is 'g.gould'. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[virtuosic1]

Every one is different. For some the high fingers help (or at least they think so). I found for myself the high finger action does more harm than good, as this way I'd practice something the way which is CONTRARY to what you will be doing later. I practice this etude with fingers superglued to the keys, for ten million and first time carefully measuring the key depth, and activating it the fastest and most efficient way possible, so all the rest of the time the finger/hand will have time to rest.

Bye

[m]

Effective training is motion specific, and the only pianist who will benefit from exercises exaggerating unnatural finger height, will be the pianist whose intention is to excell in performing in that manner, which will greatly limit his technical capabilities at the keyboard, say, if he want's to perform the opus 10 #2 anywhere near tempo, or other pieces where relaxation through a synergistic economy of motions of the entire body is necessary.

Wasn't it the point of my message, just spelled differently? 

[virtuosic1]

[-

[m]

Nope. You implied that for some, fingers held high will work because we are all different.

Nope, I did not. If you read carefully, right after that I put "or at least they think so", stressing that this is a fallacy and is rather a mental thing. I am sorry if that message was not clear enough and created confusion.

If you look at my other messages concerning piano technique, you will see that I ALWAYS advocate the most economical principles of piano playing, with fingers never leaving the key surface even in big sounding chords, which IMO, is a fundamental principal of successfull piano technique.

And BTW, to be fair, I know one person who plays with high fingers and still has one of the most amazing technical abilities. I have no idea how he manages it, but definitely Mr. Sokolov's has the most impeacable pianistic reflexes I ever seen.

Best, M

[kriskicksass]

I had a teacher mention once that you should compact the hand and angle it to favor the outer fingers after each chord in order to prevent strain, but I've never played it, so I don't know how good that advice is. 

[danny elfboy]

danny elfboy,

Interresting post, I understand your point about that it's necessary to rest. However, how to have rests in a piece like op 10 no 2 I don't know - you are after all using the same fingers from the beginning to the end, almost entirely without interruptions. Could you explain further please?

Contraction not much a physical process than it is neurological process
Contractile disfunctions are after all under what is known and neurological syndromes
So what I'm saying is that contraction and resetting doesn't start within the muscle itself physically but as neurological stimulus that are uptaken by receptors of movements

This is the real problem. How do you reset if you don't have time to reset?
The answer is that reset and contraction must be as quick as possible and I'm talking about 1/10 of a second. This is possible because neurological stimulus including contractile ones travel at a speed which is way faster than that. Speed again is the delay between contrations and resettings

Think about the singing analogy. Catching your breath is necessary hence you can't wait for a long note or a rest to catch your breath. Simple it occurs so precisely and fast that it occurs periodically without "breaking" the flow of the music

Catching your breath involves both neurological stimulus from the motor cortex of your brain and contraction of abdominal and thoracic muscles to physical opening of vocal folds, vocal tract and larynx

It is hovewer more easy to break the flow of music by catching your new breath than by resetting piano playing muscles. If we active your kinestethic sense we realize that both process are very compelling

Anyway to directly answer your question:

Resetting and contractions are both very fast
Contraction after the notes have been depressed is just a waste of energy
So resetting occurs (like catch breathing) after a certain amount of notes before the hand/wrist lift (more or less) to play a new set of notes

If you practice your whole pieces or long fractions of the piece trying to insert timed contraction and resetting here and there you'll break the flow of music.
That's because your neurological pathway are not yet stimulated by this piece and muscle memory to react so fast

The only solution is to practice a fraction of the piece and as soon as the compelling need to re-catch your breath/resetting appears you stop, relax completely, take a deep breath, think of the next fraction of the piece and after 30 seconds to 1 minutes play the next fraction till again the compelling need to reset is felt and you stop again

So let's say your "breathing" forced your to play 1 bar and stop, when all the bars are mastered enough you practice 1 + 2 and stop, 2 + 3 and stop, 3 + 4 and stop

What you will notice is that althought the physical long rest is not there anymore they are still underlying your playing (i.e. the resetting and contraction is almost subconscious and so fast to be invisible)

When this is achieved you practice: (1 + 2) + (3 + 4), (4 + 5) + (6 + 7), (7 + + (9 + 10) and so on. Again you'll notice the same. Althought the physical rest and time to stop for 30 seconds is not there anymore it is underlying your playing, it is still there but so fast not to require any concrete 30 to 1 minute rest

After that you'll practice: (1 + 2 + 3 + 4) + (5 + 6 + 7 + and so on
Again no rest but neurological fast imputs of contraction and resetting are still there occurring fast and naturally

After than you practice:  (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + + (9 + 10 + 11 + 12 + 13 + 14 + 15 + 16) and so on

Takes your time to learn the fraction of piece properly
In other words never move to the next stage if you haven't mastered fully the previous one

You'll notice therefore that the most tedious work is at the beginning when you're learning the piece from scratch, memory is still weak and your fragments are very short
But the system is pyramidal, the more you move up the smaller is the area to cover till you reach 1 or the whole piece

Another thing that works for me is to play the small fragment FAST FIRST
Since we're talking of contraction and neurology it bears saying that starting slow and increasing the speed with a metronome is not effective. It is not effective for occurate speed playing and it is not effective for avoiding tension. The coordination necessary to play slow speed (more delay between notes) and the note necessary to play at performance speed (less delay between notes) is incredibly different

I say practice the smallest fractions at full speed so that you're practicing the coordination that will effectively use at performance speed without the coordination for slow speed confusing you at the beginning. As the pyramid moves up and your fractions are bigger and there's already a contractin/resetting flow implied in your playing you can use the same coordination your use at full speed but with a bigger delay betwee notes (slow motion)

This wil allow you to play slow without breaking or confusing the actual coordination necessary to play fast. Slow motion practice is necessary to focus on certain aspect that are not easy to focus on at full speed: pedalling, dynamics, interpretation, touch

At this point you can use several methods to better ingrain your piece like repeated group or dotted notes and so on

You can always PM me or we can meet in the chat if you have specific questions

[cloches_de_geneve]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I am not certain to have understood everything. However, is what you're saying that one should relax a finger before using the next one?

[opus10no2]

I AM THIS ETUDE AND I AM SADISTIC ME LIKE INFLICTING PAIN ON MANY PIANISTS YAY

[danny elfboy]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I am not certain to have understood everything. However, is what you're saying that one should relax a finger before using the next one?

What I'm saying is that you should "relax" between each muscular impulse
But the word "relax" is easy to misunderstood

A muscular impulse is like a breath impulse in singing
How many notes can you sing before you absolutely need to catch your breath again?
You'll see there's definitely a max amount of notes
If you sing that amount of note and then expire and catch you breath again to sing more notes you've ended a breath impulse and started a new breath impulse

With the piano it is the same thing
Contraction starts a new muscle impulse
Resetting ends the old muscle impulse allowing a new contraction to start a new muscle impulse

This must occur very fast but like breathing almost unawaressly: contraction, reset - contraction, reset - contraction, reset ... from beginning to end of your piece ... it's like a flow of well timed impulses

If you try to just practice your whole piece and use fast enough impulses you'll see it won't work and you'll accumulate tension anyway

What you need to do is to practice REST between impulses
When you practice RESTS between impulses as I explained when you'll evenutally play the whole piece without RESTS even if the RESTS are not physically there anymore they will underlying your playing. In other words you've practiced making contraction and resetting for that piece as fast as possible (which is the source of speed)

[opus10no2]

And what would you say is the fastest possible timing for this piece without cheating?

[cloches_de_geneve]

And BTW, to be fair, I know one person who plays with high fingers and still has one of the most amazing technical abilities. I have no idea how he manages it, but definitely Mr. Sokolov's has the most impeacable pianistic reflexes I ever seen.

And uses a lot of curious vertical motions, as if he was "throwing" his hands at the keyboard from high above. I think that, THESE DAYS, he is unmatched by all criteria, technical and musical.

[danny elfboy]

And what would you say is the fastest possible timing for this piece without cheating?

It depends what you mean by fastest possible timing

Because for example I don't consider the fastest possible timing just the neurological one but the one that doesn't destroy the music. So for me the fastest speed is the one at which the piece can still be recognized as such and doesn't just become a confused series of notes
Even if it would still possible to play at a faster timing I would consider the limit the boundary of musicality.

Even from a showing-off point of view there's no point in playing a piece so fast that it is not recognizable anymore. Even the schock effect is missing from the people listening.
The limit speed at which the piece still sound as such allows people to claim "wow, look how fast xxxx piece is played"  ...

"okay is fast ... but ... what the hell is playing ... I can play random notes that fast too" ... is not as effective as a comment
 
BESIDES: playing so fast that the piece is not recognizable is like CHEATING because you're the only one telling that you're indeed playing all the notes but since it can't be heard you may be using the blurred speed to just hide the fact that you missing lot of notes.
So blurred and confusing speed is CHEATING too

Speed with lack of control, eveness, dynamic, beautiful sound, articulated notes and so on is BIG CHEATING ... everyone can do that. The real challenge is fast speed while leaving the piece and all its nuances and the individual notes intact

[danny elfboy]

And BTW, to be fair, I know one person who plays with high fingers and still has one of the most amazing technical abilities. I have no idea how he manages it, but definitely Mr. Sokolov's has the most impeacable pianistic reflexes I ever seen.

And uses a lot of curious vertical motions, as if he was "throwing" his hands at the keyboard from high above. I think that, THESE DAYS, he is unmatched by all criteria, technical and musical.

It is not any different than saying I know one person who drank liters of alcohol daily, smoke 2 packet of cigarretes and 5 cigars daily, while eating just saturated fats and no veggies and lived to the ripe age of 99 moderately healthy

[counterpoint]

I AM THIS ETUDE AND I AM SADISTIC ME LIKE INFLICTING PAIN ON MANY PIANISTS YAY

If you is this etude, then you should know, that it is not you. that causes this pain, but the people, who don't know how to play you in an enjoyable way (for both the player and the audience).

[g.gould]

This is for "Glenn Gould".

thanks! 

[opus10no2]

Even if it would still possible to play at a faster timing I would consider the limit the boundary of musicality.

  irrelevant.

Anyway, the writing of the piece is such that it naturally forbids a tempo that would be musically confusing to even the slowest of ears.

I ask again, if your theories are correct, what is the fastest timing, in seconds, that is potentially humanly possible?

[danny elfboy]

irrelevant.

Why is it irrelevant ?!

If you play a piece and the speed is all blurred and there's no articulation (I have heard this before) it's pure and plain cheating.
You're the only one swearing all the notes are there
Also it's very easy to play fast without caring for articulation and eveness and everyone can do it with a little practice
So blurred speed is not at all remarkable ... it's actually quite easy to obtain

Anyway, the writing of the piece is such that it naturally forbids a tempo that would be musically confusing to even the slowest of ears.

I ask again, if your theories are correct, what is the fastest timing, in seconds, that is potentially humanly possible?

Humanly possible? I would say 1/4 = 188

[opus10no2]

Why is it irrelevant
If you play a piece and the speed is all blurred and there's no articulation (I have heard before) it's pure and plain cheating. You're the only one swearing all the notes are there
Also it's very easy to play fast without caring for articulation and eveness
So blurred speed is not at all remarkable ... it's actually quite easy to obtain
Humanly possible? I would say 1/2 = 188

Which corresponds to a timing of how many seconds??

I DID say the timing without cheating - leaving out no notes, and still maintaining a smooth level of articulation and evenness...ie- minimal rape.

[danny elfboy]

Which corresponds to a timing of how many seconds??

More or less 57-58

I DID say the timing without cheating - leaving out no notes, and still maintaining a smooth level of articulation and evenness...ie- minimal rape.

Can I see the vid?

[opus10no2]

Interesting, I might agree with you on the fastest possible timing, certainly not much more than that with human bodies as they are, without cyberbionic stuff improvements.

And I wasn't talking about any performance of mine, I didn't know you were.

In evaluating speed, of course I can tell the person with the cleaner performance has more room for accelerated speed.

Articulation and evenness is still about speed, they're byproducts of having fast fingers, and when fast fingers are pushed to their limits, they lose these byproducts.

[virtuosic1]

I had a teacher mention once that you should compact the hand and angle it to favor the outer fingers after each chord in order to prevent strain, but I've never played it, so I don't know how good that advice is. 

It's not good advice.

[virtuosic1]

[

[danny elfboy]

Articulation and evenness is still about speed, they're byproducts of having fast fingers, and when fast fingers are pushed to their limits, they lose these byproducts.

I still don't agree with you saying "fast fingers"
What's so fast about fingers?
There's no muscles in the fingers
The hand muscles don't control the speed movements of fingers
The forearm muscles don't change they fiber type or increase in myofibrillis because forearm muscles are literally small muscle and piano playing even on insanely virtuoso piece is still a stimulus inferior to the one necessary to trigger those processes

Besides every one can play 3 notes at an unbelievable fast speed .... even a beginner
This alone proves that speed in its relation to muscles is always there and is not to be aquired. But when those notes becomes a whole piece we "loose" speed
This again proves that it's not a physical problem but a neurological problem, that's it fast motor cortex trasmission of contractile (both for contracton and both for resetting) information

Finger are not fast.
It's the flow of opposite motor cortex impulses which is fast or become fast

[virtuosic1]

And uses a lot of curious vertical motions, as if he was "throwing" his hands at the keyboard from high above. I think that, THESE DAYS, he is unmatched by all criteria, technical and musical.

Maybe his performances are digitalized, as I have been accused of.

[danny elfboy]

Danny, your posts on the neurological firing of muscles are spot on. This is what happens on a neurological level. The only problem is that these things take place on an autonomous level, beyond our conscious control, just as our hearts will beat, whether we are trying to consciously stop them from beating. We can exercise SOME type of control over our pulse, by relaxation and bio-feedback, but only to a small degree.

I think the problem is not that of practicing the control of this subconscious processes but of practicing the maintenance of such subconcious control
It's like breathing. Breathing is natural and happend at a subconscious and natural level
When we don't breath properly it is not because we don't have a developed subconscious breathing control but because we're sabotaging the system through conscious paralyzing processes.

What I suggested about practicing small fractions with small rests in between used to check your body, to check the alignment, to check if there's any unecessary contraction, to breath and to think of the notes ahead of you allows the body to maintain the "muscular breathing" control without sabotages. In order words you "reminds" the body of something natural but which is sabotaged by us.

[virtuosic1]

And what would you say is the fastest possible timing for this piece without cheating?

 

[virtuosic1]

[

[danny elfboy]

Does anyone NOT get tired by the third page ? If so, what do you eat ?!

https://www.zonedietinfo.com/

[danny elfboy]

1/4 = 200 is very possible. That's approx. my practice tempo. I usally set the metronome at 200 and have at it. I can probably play parts of it, the ascending configurations only (my 3-4-5 chromatics ascending are faster than my 1-2-3 ascending. I've ALWAYS ascended chromatically that way) in the 1/4 = 220-230 range.

Yeah ... but remember the criteria for "fastest speed possible": it must sound good, articulate and even

For me 188 or around that is the max speed at which the etude still sounds good IMO
Since I do practice at very fast speed everything I'm aware that "practice speed" doesn't sound good and it's okay only for practice

[virtuosic1]

[hakki]

 

1/4 = 200 is very possible. That's approx. my practice tempo. I usally set the metronome at 200 and have at it. I can probably play parts of it, the ascending configurations only (my 3-4-5 chromatics ascending are faster than my 1-2-3 ascending. I've ALWAYS ascended chromatically that way) in the 1/4 = 220-230 range.

I was intending to put a video of this etude, but after reading through this thread, this site might not be the right one for posting it.
1/4=200 in SEMPRE LEGATO, as indicated by Chopin ? I think, he doesn't want any hand lifts between those groups of triads.
Anyway, it would be very interesting for me (maybe, for the rest of the world, too) to see a video of it performed at that speed, and judge afterwards.

Regards,