Chopin Op. 10, No. 1

[cmg]

The discussion on Opus 10/2, I thought, was interesting and helpful.

I was wondering if Danny and virtuosic1 would initiate a discussion on this first etude of Opus 10. 

Just as in 10/2, speed is required, but the demands of 10/1 are somewhat different in that the "mechanism" is required to contract and expand throughout the wide reaches that are a challenge to any but the largest of hands.

Any thoughts on preparing this Etude for a tension-free performance?  Particularly in those bars where the small or medium-sized hand can't make the stretches even with a good rotational technique. 

[m]

Look a couple threads down--"Developing the 4th and 5th fingers", where there is all the information for successful mastering of this etude.

I already posted it there, but once again, for big stretch passages mental regrouping them from "wide" into "narrow" positions, i.e. instead of CGCE, CGCE, CGCE, think of them as C, GCEC, GCEC, etc., will help (indeed, technique is in ones head).

Also, you can re-finger those with particularly big stretches.

Best, M

[opus10no2]

This etude is more taxing for the 5th finger than 10/2, I've found, to me.

[virtuosic1]

Info replaced down below

[opus10no2]

The 5th finger is the one which always falls on the beat, and should be accented.

It's also the one, in the fastest performances, which most often gets left out in the blur.

[jakev2.0]

I've found it not very useful to consciously accent (i.e., place weight on ) the fifth finger at performance tempo. Your hand makes the 5th come out stronger naturally.

[opus10no2]

No, if you depend upon the hand rotation at slower tempos, the 5th finger will not be developed, and at the fastest tempos it becomes left out because it is weaker.

I do know the value of wrist movement in this piece, but I also know the pitfalls of relying on them.

[danny elfboy]

No, if you depend upon the hand rotation at slower tempos, the 5th finger will not be developed, and at the fastest tempos it becomes left out because it is weaker.

I do know the value of wrist movement in this piece, but I also know the pitfalls of relying on them.

Just practice up to tempo from the beginning
Hand shapes and finger lenght are very different ... that means that it's impossible to say what motions are strategical correct to play this piece and as you yourself noticed if you practice up to tempo you'll get the illuson that certain motions work until you up the tempo and see you can't use them to play fast. The solution is to play up to tempo immediately from the first time one start this etude from scratch. The only way I know to do this is to practice very small fragments of the piece so that even if played super fast to practice the right coordination for fast playing according to the individual anatomy of one's student no tension is accumulate

[cmg]

Look a couple threads down--"Developing the 4th and 5th fingers", where there is all the information for successful mastering of this etude.

I already posted it there, but once again, for big stretch passages mental regrouping them from "wide" into "narrow" positions, i.e. instead of CGCE, CGCE, CGCE, think of them as C, GCEC, GCEC, etc., will help (indeed, technique is in ones head).

Also, you can re-finger those with particularly big stretches.

Best, M

Thanks . . . and my apologies for missing this earlier info.  But I appreciate you taking the trouble to repeat it.

[cmg]

Too much info for this forum here   Poof

What's happening here with the "poof" thing?  Is your post too long?  Or what??  Nevertheless, thanks for trying . . .

[nilsjohan]

What's happening here with the "poof" thing?  Is your post too long?  Or what??  Nevertheless, thanks for trying . . .

Jakev2.0, opus10no2 and a few other (slightly less arrogant) members were dismissing virtuosic1's recording(s) as fake which was (quite understandably) making him upset to the extent that he finally removed the very valuable information posted.

[cmg]

Jakev2.0, opus10no2 and a few other (slightly less arrogant) members were dismissing virtuosic1's recording(s) as fake which was (quite understandably) making him upset to the extent that he finally removed the very valuable information posted.

Thanks for letting me know, Nils.  That's a shame.  No, it's more than that.  It's disgraceful.

[franzliszt2]

No, if you depend upon the hand rotation at slower tempos, the 5th finger will not be developed, and at the fastest tempos it becomes left out because it is weaker.

I do know the value of wrist movement in this piece, but I also know the pitfalls of relying on them.

5th finger strength? What can possibly be stronger than the whole weight of the arm behind the finger? If your using the correct motions that happens naturally. In faster perfomances it's always the 3rd semiquaver of each group that dissapears. This etudes has nothing to do with strength, it's pure relaxation. The bass should be strong, and the RH volume will project becasue of the bass harmonics, pedal, etc...

If you want to keep it tension free, just sit for a while at the piano and find the correct movements, and you'll know when you found it. Then the etude becomes a lot easier, but still a very hard etude. One of my favourite etudes

[opus10no2]

Thanks for letting me know, Nils.  That's a shame.  No, it's more than that.  It's disgraceful.

Indeed, on his part.

His posts were useful, I never doubted that, but many of his recordings were obviously fakes, and this was the source of the hostility.

5th finger strength? What can possibly be stronger than the whole weight of the arm behind the finger? If your using the correct motions that happens naturally. In faster perfomances it's always the 3rd semiquaver of each group that dissapears. This etudes has nothing to do with strength, it's pure relaxation. The bass should be strong, and the RH volume will project becasue of the bass harmonics, pedal, etc...

If you want to keep it tension free, just sit for a while at the piano and find the correct movements, and you'll know when you found it. Then the etude becomes a lot easier, but still a very hard etude. One of my favourite etudes

I don't question the sinerity of you advice, but only their application when used by someone less experienced than you.

Like in running, relaxation is only possible when a certain level of 'fitness' in the mechanism is previously aquired.

I advocate aquiring this, and THEN chilling out.

[mike_lang]

I am curious how you define rotation - this may be a start.  One of my former teachers, Evelyne Brancart, has small hands, but is able to do remarkable things with great ease as a result of rotation of the wrist.  This rotation is similar to the turning of a door handle - you might land on the E natural on the second beat of the first bar on the side of your pinky as a result of this rotation.  I'm not sure if you can visualize this.

I have a little larger hands, so I use a very slight rotation, rather, dividing the arpeggi into small groups.  For example, the first run I mentally divide into the C and the G-C-E that follows.  I practice the G-C-E solid, then moving my thumb under to play the next C.  From the C, I employ a shift to the next G-C-E pattern.  In short, I divide the large arpeggi into more manageable groups that do not produce tension in the hands, using rotation as necessary and shifts as well as thumb under/over to connect the dots.

Best wishes,
Michael

[cmg]

I am curious how you define rotation - this may be a start.  One of my former teachers, Evelyne Brancart, has small hands, but is able to do remarkable things with great ease as a result of rotation of the wrist.  This rotation is similar to the turning of a door handle - you might land on the E natural on the second beat of the first bar on the side of your pinky as a result of this rotation.  I'm not sure if you can visualize this.


Best wishes,
Michael

Yes, this is exactly what I mean by "rotation."  Thanks for your clarification.  My hand is smallish and to get this etude in my fingers without tension has taken some thoughful practice and experimentation.  But, it's paying off.  Amazing how Chopin teaches you how to play.

[phil39]

it seems to me the one rule with this piece, as with all fast arpeggio/scale type work, is to make sure you are passing your weight evenly over every single note (with the exception of the beat notes where you might use a bit of powerful arm rotation to get the accent, but even there your weight should probably still be constant, it's just that you 'also' turn the forearm).
i would practise slowly for quite a long time (maybe up to 75% of the time it takes to prepare it for performance). concentrating on a relaxed arm and bringing the fingers down fast and crisp over every single note. one thing that i just didn't get for many years is that you can practise the tecniques needed for fast playing, but at a slow tempo: the fingers can come down fast but the 'spaces' between the notes can be big (hence.. a slow tempo). many pianists waste their time thinking slow practise per se is the answer to everything... in fact slow practise is only helpful in learning the notes and fingering initially and memorizing, but it's useless for ultimately developing accuracy at speed - unless you are training the techniques for speed whilst you do your slow practise.
i think if you are patient enough to do this kind of purposeful slow practise for a long time, the end result will be awesome (but only if had the correct techniques in mind from the beginning). it's not a case of moving the metronome up notch by notch each day, but after a few weeks of slow drill you can almost go straight up to a good speed without needing to spend the same amount of time on the intervening speeds.

[virtuosic1]

Indeed, on his part.

His posts were useful, I never doubted that, but many of his recordings were obviously fakes, and this was the source of the hostility.

You'll have a chance to post your retraction of your opinion on my sound files being "fake" once I have the time to upload a video to youtube or other upload site.

[virtuosic1]

Hopefully, one of my old posts on the op.10 #1 will be helpful:

A question was posed as to improving tension-free velocity on the opus 10 #1:

First off, I would need some technical data. Are your hands small, medium, or large? Can you easily span all minor tenths? Ninths? Octaves? Fingers slender or thick? When you play rapid arpeggiations (now this may take thinking about some aspects of your playing that you haven't considered), do your fingers reach and stretch to the notes, carrying your hand; or does your hand carry your fingers to the targets? Have you been playing this Etude with elbow rotation, hence fanning out the 4th and 5th fingers without much vertical finger motion aiding the depression of the keys? Have you tried altered fingering that requires more active lateral hand motion?

*********

The key word you mentioned is tension, and without seeing you actually play through a few bars of it to precisely isolate potential velocity detriments, I'm going to assume that the stretch between the 3rd, 4th, and 5th fingers, after playing the first two small intervals with the thumb and index finger are what is the cause of tension. That is, stretching for octaves and tenths with the 4-5 fingers. This is usually caused when your hand is not active enough in carrying your fingers to the keys and you're not only imparting the vertical motion in trying to "finger" with the 4-5 fingers after the stretch (which is ordinarily never a problem when playing arpeggios whose cells are limited to the octave), but lateral finger motion as well, the 4 and 5 fingers moving in 2 planes, 2 ranges of motion, which will certainly slow you down and build tension in the interossei muscles of the hand.

Your hands are adequately large enough to play this Etude with hand rotation alone. I don't know if you're familiar with using hand rotation, the hand bringing the fingers to the keys, aided by slight finger vertical motion at the strike of each note to assist in phrasing. Hand rotation will eliminate reaching, or stretching, using the interossei muscles to move the 4-5 fingers laterally.

Try this simple motion. Imagine a large knob, like on an old-fashioned radio, the knob the diameter of a grapefruit. This knob is at about chin level. Reach out with a loose hand just letting your fingers make light contact with the imaginary knob and turn it. Left to right, right to left. Back and forth. Let you elbow remain motionless in the same space throughout this motion example. You should be turning this imaginary knob simply by rotating your hand at the wrist.

Try it slow. Then faster, the main goal to remain relaxed. Try it sitting at the keyboard with the hand held high enough off the keys not to make contact. Your fingers should be loose and outstretched, in playing position, but completely relaxed.

Let's try this on an arpeggio that fits the shape of the hand perfectly. Cdim7th.

C Eb Gb Bbb (A) with the 1-2-3-5 fingering for now. Roll the arpeggio back and forth 1-2-3-5-3-2-1-2-3-5-3-2-1, etc., etc. with your fingers lightly contacting the keys, your hand rotating your fingers through (depressing) the keys. Once you become familiar with the proper symbiosis between hand rotation and fingers, in this case the hand carrying the fingers to the keys, incorporating the hand properly, you'll be able to play this static arpeggio much faster in this way then using fingers alone.

Once you feel comfortable with this, let's expand the arpeggio and turn a slightly "larger knob", closer in size to the configuration of the etude.

C Eb Gb Bbb (A) Dbb (C) with the 1-2-3-4-5 fingering. Follow the same steps laid out above. The fingers slightly more apart, but again, without tension because you are not reaching for the top two keys of each cell, your hand taking that role.

I'll follow up with more once you've gotten these suggestions in hand. This will lead to a prep. exercise that should add 20 to 30 points to the tempo you're playing it at now in a short amount of time, although quarter = 120 is certainly nothing to be ashamed of at all. 

***************

Take your time. Adapt slowly to new ideas, taking each step in analytically as you run through it manually. Live with it for several days and then get back to me with some initial feedback and your ideas on it based on your introduction to this, and then we'll progress to the next phase. Like the wicked witch of the west said, "These things must be done DELLLLLLLL-icately"
 

  wave motion of playing mechanism in the Chopin Etudes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the Chopin Etudes are designed to address a specific technical obstacle. They all work and will improve the inherent weaknesses due to the anatomical configuration of the hand. There will be a carry over effect between certain etudes, like the #1 and #2, which both stress 4th and 5th finger execution as their main problem, but each attacks the problem from a completely different angle. The #1 is a hand rotation Etude with the 4-5 extended in a rotative targeting role. In the #2, the 3-4-5 fingers are called upon to be used like another set of 1-2-3 fingers from the opposite end of the hand. In the #2, true articualtive finger independence must be used, and economy of individual vertical motion depressing the keys. This is further complicated by the addition of notes in the thumb and 2nd fingers, forcing execution with a relatively zero planed hand (much easier to execute 3-4-5 chromatics with the hand angled towards the pinky at about a 30 to 45 degree ptich).

My personal belief is that an undulatory motion, some slight wave-like motion of hand rotation towards the thumb on each use of the 1-2 fingers (when a chord is sounded in the right hand on each beat) and then a hand rotation pitched back to the pinky will produce the best effect in executing the #2 (in any key). The 1-2 fingers already in position to play each closely quartered chord, a quick rotation on each beat towards the thumb will automatically produce the chord without even depressing the fingers (just targeting them), immediately after sounding the chords on each beat, the hand rotating back towards the pinky for the following 3 sixteenth notes.

At the piano, this motion should appear almost identically to the way a bassist slaps and pops with his thumb, not articulating with thumb motion, but by rotating the thumb through the string by rotating the hand.   
 
 
 
 

[cmg]

Thanks for reprising this post.  Interestingly, I've discovered on my own all your suggestions earlier this week through careful experimentation and practice.  Rotation technique has been someting I learned long ago, but I wasn't prepared for just how much rotation is necessary for this etude!

My biggest hurdle has been my lousy RH stretch between 4 & 5 -- legacy of a childhood hand injury.  RH can stretch barely to a 10th, and play a 9th.  LH can play a 10th and almost stretch to an 11th.

So, I've beefed up the rotational technique and mechanism "aiming and tossing" to reach the nastier stretches in this etude.  Also, substituting 3 for 4 has solved the hardest of stretches:  i.e., 1-3-5 works better than 1-4-5 in two of the widest spans -- it flips me into a hyper-rotational mode which works perfectly.

In two weeks, the notes are in my hands, tension-free, and I find that pushing up the tempo is coming naturally and almost effortlessly.  This etude is actually playable.   

Appreciate your help.

p.s. lousy weather in NYC today, huh?

[virtuosic1]

Thanks for reprising this post.  Interestingly, I've discovered on my own all your suggestions earlier this week through careful experimentation and practice.  Rotation technique has been someting I learned long ago, but I wasn't prepared for just how much rotation is necessary for this etude!

My biggest hurdle has been my lousy RH stretch between 4 & 5 -- legacy of a childhood hand injury.  RH can stretch barely to a 10th, and play a 9th.  LH can play a 10th and almost stretch to an 11th.

So, I've beefed up the rotational technique and mechanism "aiming and tossing" to reach the nastier stretches in this etude.  Also, substituting 3 for 4 has solved the hardest of stretches:  i.e., 1-3-5 works better than 1-4-5 in two of the widest spans -- it flips me into a hyper-rotational mode which works perfectly.

In two weeks, the notes are in my hands, tension-free, and I find that pushing up the tempo is coming naturally and almost effortlessly.  This etude is actually playable.   

Appreciate your help.

p.s. lousy weather in NYC today, huh?

Winter in NYC this year was rescheduled for Jan. through April!

[classical pianist]

It Would be a fatal mistake to consider this etude as a "hand expanding" study. A "Hand closing" study would be even more fatal!!

There are no open-close gestures require in this etude. RH rarely expands more than a position of 6th. To arrive to this point, one must keep the hand in the most relaxing position "the 6th" while executing those large arppegio. This means when you play 1-2 you don't prepare 5th finger and when you reach 4th finger you need to release 1 and 2 and follow up to the hand's recent position. Vice versa for coming downward.

The Accent written by Chopin is the key for this technique. Niether to accent with force nor to ignore the accents is correct. To place well the 5th finger on the accent with firm finger (but nit stiff) and relax is the correct technique. Control the dynamics on those accent from down to up eg; p on the fist accent of the chord mf - f- ff on the following accents. ... This makes the etude sound much better with less effort.

Best Regards,

[marco_from_brazil]

global warming rears its ugly head

i've been skimming this etude now, can't really study it now cause my college pieces for this semester are FAR from ready.. 

but what I've noticed is that I usually tried to play it with my hands flat in the keyboard and kind of "stretching and shrinking" it laterally to progress through the keyboard. So I've tried to keep my hand as relaxed as possible and playing the notes with wrist rotation and it DOES look much easier this way. I think I'm going to try and prepare it for the next semester, if my teacher doesn't think i'm completely out of my mind :-)

[elevateme_returns]

The 5th finger is the one which always falls on the beat, and should be accented.

It's also the one, in the fastest performances, which most often gets left out in the blur.

why does it have to be accented?

[bench warmer]

why does it have to be accented?

Because that's how the big-C wrote it. There are accents in the score on just about every place the 5th finger lands.

[m]

But the big-C was a smart cookie. He knew exactly that with some students whose pinkies do not have enough control, there would be dips on those notes. So he put those stupid accents just merely to stress: "No, no--that stuff should be even". 

[elevateme_returns]

i agree with that. i think you should just feel the downbeat as always, and not accent it. otherwise it can tend to sound, um, bollocks really

[franzliszt2]

I always for the 4th finger to be the problem in this piece. It always used to dissapeared or totally missed.

Practice this piece with NO thumb. So play the bottom C, then in triplets play...GCEGCEGCE etc...with no thumbs. Go through the whole piece like this