Thirds: fast vs. legato

[Derek]

Do you usually find it harder to play thirds fast legato? I do. I am developing my own technique now for thirds where every so often you sort of "jump" to the next set of thirds. I'm finding it much easier to go fast this way, but of course one gets a skip in the legato. Thoughts?

[le_poete_mourant]

Rather than "jumping," try sliding.  It's all in your fingering.  When I do it I slide my index finger off of the D# to E natural, moving the 3rd finger off of the F# to a 4 on the G.  Also applicable with A#-C# to B natural-D natural.  This will give you a better legato. 

(I will double-check the fingering on that tomorrow - I'm just doing it off the top of my head right now. 

[danny elfboy]

Do you usually find it harder to play thirds fast legato? I do. I am developing my own technique now for thirds where every so often you sort of "jump" to the next set of thirds. I'm finding it much easier to go fast this way, but of course one gets a skip in the legato. Thoughts?

I you practice the jumping, with time you'll be able to decrease the delay till it sounds smoothly legato but the releasing impulse of "jumping" is still underlying your legato third.
So your technique is good as long as you use it in your practice and give it the time to develop.

[ramseytheii]

I you practice the jumping, with time you'll be able to decrease the delay till it sounds smoothly legato but the releasing impulse of "jumping" is still underlying your legato third.
So your technique is good as long as you use it in your practice and give it the time to develop.

I would actually advise not practicing this jumping motion.  What you should be doing is focussing all your energy on achieving legato, and to that end, don't practice anything that gets in the way (and this does). 

Rather you should take the thirds apart in every way possible to achieve maximum fluency and control: play them as broken thirds going up and down; play one part at a time with the fingering you would use for performance; play with one part legato, the other part non-legato; alternate between the two (ie if you have a scale of C-E, D-F, E-G, F-A, G-B, A-C, play C, F, E, A, G, C but  make absolute sure you use the performance fingering).  These should all be sempre legatissimo and cantabile.

You may find that practicing a motion such as jumping is actually an imposition of movement on music, and not a correlation between the two.  This will never be successful.  The motion has to come from the music, not be imposed on it, so you have to search the music for as much as it takes to achieve a comfort level; then you will find there is no need for "jumping" or any other externally conceived motions.

And fingering is indeed important: for chromatic scales, it's highly recommended to slide the 2nd finger from black to white key, right before you have 2 white keys in a row (E-flat to E, and B-flat to C; or going down F#- F, C#-C)

Walter Ramsey

[danny elfboy]

I would actually advise not practicing this jumping motion.  What you should be doing is focussing all your energy on achieving legato, and to that end, don't practice anything that gets in the way (and this does). 

It works with me and many others.
Basically you add a delay element to be in control and with time the delay element just disappear on its own leaving what your goal was in the first place.

It's the same principle of adding rest everywhere.
Eventually you'll obtain a smooth playing without the rest but the resting impulse will keep underlying your playing.

The problem with legato is simply a coordinative problem of tension.
You should release immediately the contraction that allowed the first third and start a new contraction for the next third and so on. The sovrapposition of contractions is what makes third legato problematic. Adding a rest or jump or whatever delay after each third allow the resetting required to play the next third. With time and with practice the delay will go but the  impulses will remain they will just occur way faster so that the release and the contraction almost occur at the same time.

The people I know who have tried using this method with a third legato passage in a piece didn't had a problem with third legato in whatever piece ever since.

[counterpoint]

This topic has opens quite a few questions to me:

Are we talking about chromatic or diatonic scales?

What does legato mean?

If you have 5 fingers, you can never play more than three thirds legato - right?
(For diatonic scales)

If you don't agree: please tell me the exact notes and the exact fingering to do it!

[m]

Two points here.
First, in double thirds we have TWO ( ) notes/voices, so even if one is not legato, you can and should "make up" for that with the second voice. It is my routine to practice all double notes with each voice separately (of course, with "original" fingering).

Second, there is much broader question--what actually "legato" means. Most people see it as a mere physical connection between two (or more) notes. IMO, it is wrong. For me legato means a connection between ideas--rather musical term, where two (or more) notes or ideas are connected mentally, i.e. there is some musical or intonation tension between them.
In this respect, a passage played staccato, but with a perfect shape and musical meaning will in fact, sound like "connected", while a phrase with formally connected notes but no musical meaning will sound as a set of disconnected notes.

Best, M

[counterpoint]

In this respect, a passage played staccato, but with a perfect shape and musical meaning will in fact, sound like "connected", while a phrase with formally connected notes but no musical meaning will sound as a set of disconnected notes.

That's exactly what I'm thinking too 

[ramseytheii]

It works with me and many others.
Basically you add a delay element to be in control and with time the delay element just disappear on its own leaving what your goal was in the first place.

It's the same principle of adding rest everywhere.
Eventually you'll obtain a smooth playing without the rest but the resting impulse will keep underlying your playing.

The problem with legato is simply a coordinative problem of tension.
You should release immediately the contraction that allowed the first third and start a new contraction for the next third and so on. The sovrapposition of contractions is what makes third legato problematic. Adding a rest or jump or whatever delay after each third allow the resetting required to play the next third. With time and with practice the delay will go but the  impulses will remain they will just occur way faster so that the release and the contraction almost occur at the same time.

The people I know who have tried using this method with a third legato passage in a piece didn't had a problem with third legato in whatever piece ever since.

Well, perhaps I spoke too strongly.  I should have said: that my message is for those who find more hindrance than help in trying to solve musical problems with external physical solutions.  I feel like often we only get one side of the picture, but for many, imposing pre-defined physical motions on music only hurts, and the results don't come.

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Two points here.
First, in double thirds we have TWO ( ) notes/voices, so even if one is not legato, you can and should "make up" for that with the second voice. It is my routine to practice all double notes with each voice separately (of course, with "original" fingering).

Second, there is much broader question--what actually "legato" means. Most people see it as a mere physical connection between two (or more) notes. IMO, it is wrong. For me legato means a connection between ideas--rather musical term, where two (or more) notes or ideas are connected mentally, i.e. there is some musical or intonation tension between them.
In this respect, a passage played staccato, but with a perfect shape and musical meaning will in fact, sound like "connected", while a phrase with formally connected notes but no musical meaning will sound as a set of disconnected notes.

Best, M

There's no doubting your idea is right, but I think we should be careful with the way we use words,because this post is potentially confusing. 

Legato should refer to a specific articulation, which, though not always purely physically possible, always produces a certain kind of sound.  Although a staccato melodic line can be "connected" in musical idea and logic, it still shouldn't be grouped under "legato," or even the idea of legato, because it produces a distinct articulation and sound.

I'm not disagreeing, but just trying to sort out the ideas here.

Walter Ramsey

[danny elfboy]

As always is so darm hard to explain these things in words.
An to think that they're so easy to demonstrate on the keyboard