Single note tremolo

[clarinetcola]

Hi everyone

I'm a student composer and would like to ask how fast could a, say, pro-level pianist do a single note tremolo? I play the piano myself too but can't even do a trill properly so here I am asking 

[kriskicksass]

Single-note tremolos are really much more of a string technique than a pianistic technique. We have repeated notes, but they don't exactly serve the same purpose as a tremolo.

Still, many professional pianists can shoot off repeated notes like they're nothing. Check out a recording of Ravel's Alborada del Gracioso. Those repeated note passages are considered some of the most difficult in the standard repertoire, so that's what I would consider the limit if I were composing.

[ramseytheii]

Hi everyone

I'm a student composer and would like to ask how fast could a, say, pro-level pianist do a single note tremolo? I play the piano myself too but can't even do a trill properly so here I am asking 

I think the speed can be whatever you want.  Listen to Thomas Ades perform his piece, Darknesse Visible - the speed of his repeated notes is terrific, and he is not even a full-time pianist.  This is one of those techniques that often the pianist either has it, or they don't.  It can definitely be improved, but Ades' are so fast, and so perfectly even in sound (even at the softest dynamics, with the other voices around accented), that it must be mostly natural.

For the Alborado, I recommend the Lipatti recording!

Walter Ramsey

[virtuosic1]

Hi everyone

I'm a student composer and would like to ask how fast could a, say, pro-level pianist do a single note tremolo? I play the piano myself too but can't even do a trill properly so here I am asking 

HOW fast repeated notes can be played are dependent just as much on the piano action as the pianist. I sometimes gauge a piano that I'm going to play on by playing a one tone (repeated note) "trill" in the middle register. This gives me a clearer idea as to the gravitational response time of the piano action than running scales (or other), and what can be played without overplaying the keyboard. Ideally, the fastest actions allow a 2-3, 1-3, 1-2, or 4-3-2-1 repeated tone "trill" with as much ease and velocity as an adjacent 2 key trill. Unfortunately, unless all your playing is on meticulously regulated, well-maintained piano actions, this will be the exception rather than the rule.

You did mention that you're a composer, so I'm going to assume that you wish to know this because you're composing a piece for clarinet and piano, or possibly other added instruments as well. Is this the case? If so, the qeustion is very valid, and I'll be happy to assist you in your pre-composition instrumental research if you give me an example of what you have in mind compositionally for the piano in repeated tones.

[clarinetcola]

virtuosic1 you're right, its actually a trio for violin, clarinet and piano. Its atonal and it consists of short movements describing the surroundings of my house. The first movement is entitled "rainwater" or "game of rainwater" or "rainwater game" or whatever, haven't really decided.
I've found out that several effects works pretty nice on the piano to colour the rainwater movement, gliss/arpeggio, multi note tremolo and single note trem, which the last one only occurs in three places to add more _______ "interesting-ness?" (I'm not an english speaker so forgive me =P) in the high register.
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So up to here you might think of the fountain thingy by Ravel, that kinda thing. ---but its sorta different.
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Actually this single-note effect rung up my head several times during different courses of composing various pieces but I had always left it hanging by changing it to a octave-above tremolo. But it's concerned this time because it works way better in particular places in this piece.
So what i'm asking is the average playing speed of single note tremolo so that my piece won't be so virtuoso-ish.

Thanks everyone!

[counterpoint]

You could write normal notes (quarters, halfs or so but without stems) and write tremolo beams in sixteenth or thirtyseconds above with marking tremolo. Then the player can decide by himself how fast he wants to tremolize 

[virtuosic1]

You could write normal notes (quarters, halfs or so but without stems) and write tremolo beams in sixteenth or thirtyseconds above with marking tremolo. Then the player can decide by himself how fast he wants to tremolize 

Perhaps he wouldn't want to leave it up to the performer, or may wish to integrate the violin or clarinet in unison later on a repeated note motif with the piano part.

[virtuosic1]

virtuosic1 you're right, its actually a trio for violin, clarinet and piano. Its atonal and it consists of short movements describing the surroundings of my house. The first movement is entitled "rainwater" or "game of rainwater" or "rainwater game" or whatever, haven't really decided.
I've found out that several effects works pretty nice on the piano to colour the rainwater movement, gliss/arpeggio, multi note tremolo and single note trem, which the last one only occurs in three places to add more _______ "interesting-ness?" (I'm not an english speaker so forgive me =P) in the high register.
-------------
So up to here you might think of the fountain thingy by Ravel, that kinda thing. ---but its sorta different.
-------------
Actually this single-note effect rung up my head several times during different courses of composing various pieces but I had always left it hanging by changing it to a octave-above tremolo. But it's concerned this time because it works way better in particular places in this piece.
So what i'm asking is the average playing speed of single note tremolo so that my piece won't be so virtuoso-ish.

Thanks everyone!

Also, keep in mind that for greater DYNAMIC range and alot more upper dynamic headroom, there's also the option of writing the repeated notes for BOTH hands alternating strikes on the same note, the strikes originating from the wrist, ergo capable of producing more volume and a greater dynamic contour.

In my opinion, the practical upper limit most pianists should be able to handle comfortably for repeated tones is approx. 16th notes at quarter = 150 (about 10 notes per second), either manner of execution I mentioned.

If yor dynamic curve is rather static, and in the ppp to m range, the one handed "finger" method will work fine. If you need to allow for a wider dynamic contour, p to sfffz range, the two hand method is preferred.