scale fingerings

[stuffradio]

what's the best way to determine the best method for fingering scales?

[jlh]

Buy a book that has all the fingerings listed and memorize them.  Hanon lists all the major and minor scales and arpeggios.

Some general guidelines can be found here:

https://www.jeffreychappell.com/scales.htm

[mosis]

That website is misleading and incorrect.

Don't buy Hanon.

Orthodox scale fingerings usually begin with 5th finger in the left hand, 1st in the right, and you just play the scale as it goes.

This is inefficient.

Consider the easiest scale to play. C major, right?

Wrong. B major.

"5 sharps!" you ask? That certainly is intimidating, but listen a while longer.

Consider the shape of your hand. 3 and 4 are the longest fingers. What is the most comfortable position of your hand? When your hand is completely relaxed, fingers are slightly curved, stretching out forward. If you look at your hand from the side it would look like a very flat ellipse.

In the B major scale, thumbs play the B and the E, 2-3 go on C#-D#, respectively, and 2-3-4 go on F#-G#-A#, respectively. This is the most natural position for the hand. One does not have to negotiate moving the hand forwards and backwards to adjust for changing finger lengths. The long fingers are on the black notes, the short finger (thumb) is on the white notes.

To negotiate the C major scale, you have to curl all your fingers up and play towards the edge of the keys. Much more difficult than B major.

The most difficult scales of all are the ones with spare black notes (G major, F major).

However, you want to apply the same fingering principles to these scales as with the B major scale. The longest fingers (3 and 4) should always be on black notes when possible.

For example, the RH of a G major scale would most efficiently be fingered as such:

1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4
G - A - B - C - D - E - F#

The LH:

3 - 2 - 1 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 4
G - A - B - C - D - E - F#

Use this principle to determine the most efficient scale fingerings for any scale.

The following thread discusses this all in much more detail:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg198

And for chromatic scale fingering, look here:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2153.msg18525.html#msg185

[jlh]

That website is misleading and incorrect.

Don't buy Hanon.

What's misleading and/or incorrect about it?  Hanon is not all bad, and the scale fingerings in Hanon are good. 

Consider the easiest scale to play. C major, right?

Wrong. B major.

"5 sharps!" you ask? That certainly is intimidating, but listen a while longer.

Consider the shape of your hand. 3 and 4 are the longest fingers. What is the most comfortable position of your hand? When your hand is completely relaxed, fingers are slightly curved, stretching out forward. If you look at your hand from the side it would look like a very flat ellipse.

In the B major scale, thumbs play the B and the E, 2-3 go on C#-D#, respectively, and 2-3-4 go on F#-G#-A#, respectively. This is the most natural position for the hand. One does not have to negotiate moving the hand forwards and backwards to adjust for changing finger lengths. The long fingers are on the black notes, the short finger (thumb) is on the white notes.

The same could be said of the other "black note group" scales, such as Db(C#) and Gb(F#)... 

To negotiate the C major scale, you have to curl all your fingers up and play towards the edge of the keys. Much more difficult than B major.

Not true.  You don't have to curl your fingers up to play C Major, and in fact it is more efficient to play this scale with flat fingers (try it both ways, you will be faster with flat fingers).  It is more difficult because there are no black keys to keep you oriented.

I've attached a good source as a pdf that includes all fingerings for scales and arpeggios.  Use this with the same logic that Mosis has suggested and you should be fine. 

[mosis]

What's misleading and/or incorrect about it?  Hanon is not all bad, and the scale fingerings in Hanon are good. 

The same could be said of the other "black note group" scales, such as Db(C#) and Gb(F#)... 

Not true.  You don't have to curl your fingers up to play C Major, and in fact it is more efficient to play this scale with flat fingers (try it both ways, you will be faster with flat fingers).  It is more difficult because there are no black keys to keep you oriented.

I've attached a good source as a pdf that includes all fingerings for scales and arpeggios.  Use this with the same logic that Mosis has suggested and you should be fine. 

Hanon will give you very serious injuries at worst, and it is a huge waste of time at best.

Hanon's scale fingerings are precisely bad because they are "orthodox" and not the most efficient. The website also deals exclusively with "passing the thumb under" for scales of any speed, which is just not correct.

Yes, Db and Gb are easy to play as well.

You have to curl your fingers more to play C major, unless your fingers are pencil thin and can comfortably fit in between the black notes. Otherwise, you'd be playing very close to the edge of the keys and reaching a lot with the first and fifth finger.

[jlh]

Hanon will give you very serious injuries at worst, and it is a huge waste of time at best.

...unless you are learning rep that would benefit from it, namely the Shostakovich 2nd Concerto.  lol

I'm not suggesting that Hanon be used in any capacity, as I believe what can be gained by using Hanon can be gained more efficiently by other approaches.  My contention however, is that Hanon is not inherently BAD, in the sense that if properly and cautiously approached, it will not injure you.  Also, the fingerings (granted I haven't looked at them in ages) I remember being good fingerings.  How do they compare to the PDF file I posted above?

Hanon's scale fingerings are precisely bad because they are "orthodox" and not the most efficient. The website also deals exclusively with "passing the thumb under" for scales of any speed, which is just not correct.

You're either not reading the website correctly or you do not understand the difference between "thumb over" and "thumb under" and the proper application of each within context.  The website talks about lateral movement, and what it says about "thumb under" is correct, especially for slow speeds.  It is impossible to have legato in a scale at SLOW speeds without moving the thumb under the hand.  As speed increases it becomes less and less necessary to use a thumb under movement to maintain legato, and in fact you will move faster by moving the thumb less.

Keep in mind that the website above is obviously geared towards beginners just learning the basics.  It is not a speed guide for advanced students.

[beethovenlover]

For example, the RH of a G major scale would most efficiently be fingered as such:

1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4
G - A - B - C - D - E - F#

The LH:

3 - 2 - 1 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 4
G - A - B - C - D - E - F#

That's interesting. I've never seen fingerings like this before. I must say I'm skeptical to try them because I've always fingered the left hand of the G major scale as:

5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 3 - 2
G - A - B - C - D - E - F#

I think I'll go try this new way and see if it isn't more comfortable.

[beethovenlover]

Oops! The latter half of the previous post was actually a comment on the quote above it...

[jlh]

 

[ramseytheii]

Here's Bernhard's old post on scale fingerings, where he talks in detail about his unorthodox fingerings:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.0.html

Hope you find it interesting!

Walter Ramsey

[m]

Here's Bernhard's old post on scale fingerings, where he talks in detail about his unorthodox fingerings:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.0.html

Hope you find it interesting!

Indeed, it is unorthodox and interesting. For F major I however find it quite impractical, as while it cures one problem it introduces another, much bigger one, which is--
Mentally, for successful playing hands together (esp. in faster tempi) our brain needs points of synhronization, which is easiest achieved when the thumbs in both hands coincide at least once per octave.

Bernhard's proposed fingering completly breaks this pattern of "synhronization", almost invariably leading to the point where hands would slip, not going together anymore.

Best, M

[ramseytheii]

Indeed, it is unorthodox and interesting. For F major I however find it quite impractical, as while it cures one problem it introduces another, much bigger one, which is--
Mentally, for successful playing hands together (esp. in faster tempi) our brain needs points of synhronization, which is easiest achieved when the thumbs in both hands coincide at least once per octave.

Bernhard's proposed fingering completly breaks this pattern of "synhronization", almost invariably leading to the point where hands would slip, not going together anymore.

Best, M

THe thumbs are surely the most important.  But, don't you find that synchronising the 4th finger on the black key (B-flat) as helpful?  In a way, the patterns of the two hands aren't far removed, just in reverse.

Walter Ramsey

[m]

THe thumbs are surely the most important.  But, don't you find that synchronising the 4th finger on the black key (B-flat) as helpful?  In a way, the patterns of the two hands aren't far removed, just in reverse.

Well, as the only black key in the scale the B-flat will be naturally synchronised by drawing more attention to it. Two points (i.e. thumbs and black notes) are better than one, don't you think so?

Besides, definitely thumb has much more control than "weak" 4th.

Best, M

[jlh]

THe thumbs are surely the most important.  But, don't you find that synchronising the 4th finger on the black key (B-flat) as helpful?  In a way, the patterns of the two hands aren't far removed, just in reverse.

Walter Ramsey

Perhaps this would work for F Major, if one were so inclined to reingrain it.  One problem I would see, especially for students beginning to learn scales, is that you'd have to learn a separate LH fingering for F minor.  Surely one wouldn't sanely use 3214321 for LH F minor??!

It's been my experience that students at beginning levels generally despise memorizing the scale fingerings, and creating yet another one which may or may not be marginally more comfortable seems to be a superflous use of creativity.

[jlh]

...besides, the orthodox fingerings for the most part continue the same logic as the black-key fingerings, making a sort of synergy as you learn the scales (by learning one, you reinforce the logic and fingerings of other scales).