Can you make it as a pianist starting late?

[PhilDawson]

Can you make it as a concert pianist if you start playing at an adult age?

Also do you have to have perfect pitch to stand a chance in todays concert pianist world?

[rachlisztchopin]

well im not really an expert on concert pianists but i know paderewsky, one of the most famous pianists, started in his 20s i think

also, u DO NOT have to have perfect pitch...thats good for singing but not a requirement for piano

[mark1]

That all depends on desire, talent, and some decent teachers(Bernhard). Most pianists start at about 5 yrs of age and maybe start touring, so to speak, in their twenties or thirties or whatever age...you never know. Most concert pianists have had at least 10 years of lessons and musical guidence. Some may have had 20. Anything is possible, but you gotta put some good years in before you can even consider it. I am by no means(not even close) a great pianist, but I find a lot of satisfaction from trying to compose pieces! Maybe "you" are the next great composer!?! ... Not every composer is a virtuoso piano player!  As my states lottery quote goes "hey, you never know"                                   Mark

[anda]

i don't think you can make it - i mean, not in this world, as long as there are already far too many pianists and, if you look on competition results, or on philharmonics agenda's, you'll see they encourage young talented still developping pianists. over the past few years, at any given competition (except for competitions like geza anda), a promising young player had always had priority over an older more developed pianist. i'm sorry - i don't like it, but that's how it works. as for concerts - see for yourself, young pianists and well-known pianists, that's all you'll see (and, of course, "well-related" pianists )

as for perfect pitch... as a pianist, i came to consider it a disadvantage - not having it makes it easier to build a relative ear, which makes it easier to play on pianos that aren't perfect in tune; also, it is generally admited that pianists with a mediocre ear for pitch have a better ear for colours and sound variety.

[Hmoll]

There is no precedent for pianists starting as adults and becoming concert artists. Paderewski actually started piano at about age 3.

In terms of perfect pitch, as your musicianship improves your ear will improve, and you can develop perfect relative pitch. The better your ear, the better musician you are, and the better pianist you are.

[hotlilgal]

Wot if u start at age 8 or 9 but u only get serious about it at 11, is that ok? Coz most people I read about start at like, 4 or 5!

[mark1]

I read one of Bernhards posts and he mentioned something about how Chopin never had a piano teacher...only a music teacher! If this is true, then who is to say what you can and can't do?! Most likely you aren't a Chopin though, so enjoy yourself and see what happens!...but if you want everyones opinion, simply record yourself and make a link so we can hear ya! You'll get a response...good and bad.           Mark  

[faulty_damper]

I was a little confused when you said "perfect pitch."

Isn't pitch controlled by a piano tuner?  But from the responses, I'm assuming how well your ears can hear if the notes are off or the unison is off.  Is this right?

If that's the case, I'd rather not have perfect pitch because on pianos that are tuned but a string in the unison has dropped even .2 vibrations per second, I'd notice it and it drives me nuts to the point I would refuse to play on something so out of tune!  Then I get my senses back and realize that's the only piano in my home.

But on really tuned-out pianos, i don't care much about playing on it.  As long as all the notes are even tuned-out.

[trunks]

Alfred Brendel is an adult starter. And he remains my most respected, most admired living pianist.

Some notes on 'perfect pitch':
(a) it is properly known as absolute pitch, which is the appropriate term for the ability of reognising an arbitrary note by the ear alone (since there is nothing 'perfect' about this ability);
(b) it is useful - but not essential - to a singer or any instrumentalist whose instrument has no reference to what note is being played, such as the violin family of instruments;
(c) it is not essential to the general musician. Relative pitch, however, is essential to every musician.

[bernhard]

Alfred Brendel is an adult starter.

Er...

"He began playing the piano at the age of six and went on to study piano, composition, and conducting in Zagreb, Yugoslavia, and Graz, Austria. While continuing his piano studies and making his début as a pianist in 1948, aged 17."
(Source:https://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/brendel.html)

I guess if you compare him with the likes of Kissin who started 2 years old, he could be considered an adult starter…

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[trunks]

Oh Bernhard,

I might have mistaken on Brendel's facts.
Oh then PeterHK seriouly studied with a fine teacher and radically transformed his technique while he was 28. Now he could play some Liszt, Chopin and Beethoven with a much better tone than he could ever before . . . heehee!;D

[Clare]

I heard Harold (I think that's his first name) Bauer started learning piano properly when he was a grown-up, though he was already a very good violinist when he switched and I suspect he must have already known a lot about piano before he started seriously.

[Shagdac]

If that is one's dream...I truly think they should go for it!
I don't think it would be easy, but as my Mother always used to tell me, "Where there's a will, there's a way", and with hard work and determination, NOTHING is impossible. If one doesn't try and achieve what they really want to do, one will never know. Life is too short to do something because you feel like you are too old or waited to long to do what you really wanted. Unfortunately, it took years for me to realize that myself! If you have a true calling, "passion" to try and become a concert pianist, then do. Success comes from giving it your all, Failure comes from not trying in the first place! Just my thoughts!

Good Luck!

Shag  

[trunks]

Hi Shagdac,

Bravo!
Now that is the proper attitude towards life!

[goalevan]

It's pretty frustrating starting the piano freshman year of college, most of the time I'm practicing down at the music college and i'm hearin all the music students just jammin away playin the advanced songs while I'm one key per second tryin to improve my sight reading. But I believe I can catch up to almost anybody if you give me some time.

[donjuan]

I certainly hope I can make it, seeing as I started late myself.  I failed to recognize my interest in romantic music until the age of 12.  Anytime before then, I spent slacking off, fooling around randomly at the piano with low level Jazz.  

If there are any parents out there, i suggest you tune into your child's likes and dislikes before forcing them into music they may not enjoy.  

If they are soured on music from the beginning, then you have exponentially decreased the childs chances at happiness in the future.  

That is my opinion.  Debate it if you wish.

[dj]

so then how old is 2 old? i started when i was 7 but didn't get serious till just last year and it wasn't till very recently that i could even think about etudes. i hope to make it into a relatively good music conservatory in 2 years....i know i probably won't end up bein the next horowitz, but is it still a reasonable possibility to make a good living with any music-related career with maybe the occasional concert/recital?

[bernhard]

It seems to me that this thread is going in two different directions and answering two different questions:

1.      Is it possible to become a concert pianist (=professional concert pianists, touring the world giving concerts and having a recording career) if you start as an adult? (=never learned touched a piano until you were in your twenties, say).

2.      Is it possible to play the piano at a comparative level of skill to a concert pianist (=playing the standard piano repertory with ease and musicality) if you start as an adult?

I would love to say yes to both questions.

But I am afraid the answer to the first question is no. Even if you start at 2, it is not guaranteed that you can make it as concert pianist no matter how well you play, simply because market considerations will loom larger than piano skills. By starting at, say 20, one will have several handicaps that have nothing to do with the mastery of the piano. For instance, a 20 year old will have financial considerations that do not hamper a child. If a family is involved it will get even more complicated. The pressure of life will conspire against it.

And Hmoll is right: There is no historical precedence for it. There are quite a lot of late bloomers (like Alfred Brendel, Harold Bauer, Paderewsky, Scarlatti – who started composing his sonatas at 53 – Emanuel Chabrier - even J.S. Bach could be included in this group -  to mention a few). However there are no late starters. As I said I would love to be proven wrong, since this depresses me no measure.

I suggest you have a look at this very interesting article, where Fritz Owens, a piano teacher from New Orleans vents some of his ideas on this (and other) subjects:

https://www.ukpianogroup.f9.co.uk/pt-gr-uk/Fritz.htm

The answer to the second question is a most enthusiastic yes (which is not to say it will be easy). Anyone of any age can play to a comparable level of technique and musicality to a concert pianist, provided that they follow the correct guidelines.

So, stop reading this nonsense, and go practise!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[MikeLauwrie]

It is more difficult to start as an adult, I think. But by no means impossible. Although Paderewski did start playing when he was quite young, he only started to practise seriously when he was 24. In fact my piano teacher started when he was 17, I know that's not particularly old, but it's much older than infancy! And he's sh*t hot by the way. There is nothing that he couldn't play.

As for perfect pitch that is most unnecessary, however a good sense of relative pitch is always helpful, although not essential. Dedication and a passion for music are the most important things. And lots practise!


Good Luck


Mike

[dj]

It is more difficult to start as an adult, I think. But by no means impossible. Although Paderewski did start playing when he was quite young, he only started to practise seriously when he was 24. In fact my piano teacher started when he was 17, I know that's not particularly old, but it's much older than infancy! And he's sh*t hot by the way. There is nothing that he couldn't play.

so, i started when i was 7, but didn't get serious till i was 17.....does it count as starting when i was 7 even if i wasn't serious?

[trunks]

so, i started when i was 7, but didn't get serious till i was 17.....does it count as starting when i was 7 even if i wasn't serious?

No worries here. As long as you get serious, it counts. It's the attitude that counts way more than the age, my friend.

[MikeLauwrie]

I agree

[dj]

yes yes i agree that one has to be serious too....but earlier in this post i read that it would be unprecidented to make it as a concert pianist if you started late. so my question is: if i started early but wasn't serious about it till late, does it still count as starting early?

[trunks]

If you are determined no matter what, go ahead and set the example. Be the precedent.

Positive thinking always helps in life, no matter what.

[Jeffrey]

Bernhard - I am an adult complete beginner (37, work in finance in NYC, just learned musical notation and where middle-C was 10 weeks ago.)  I will be able to practice about 1 hour a day.  I love music, but never actually learned to play myself.  I have no financial need or desire to be a concert performer.  My question is: will it ever be possible for me to play at a professional level, which I define as playing at the ability of a B.A. graduate of a good piano school, perhaps over a 10-20 year period?  Also, in NYC at Mannes, Hunter, and maybe some other schools, there are extension and evening programs that let one earn a degree or diploma in music part-time, while having a regular job.  Are these worthwile, and what background in playing does one need before starting such a program?  Thanks!

[bernhard]

Bernhard - I am an adult complete beginner (37, work in finance in NYC, just learned musical notation and where middle-C was 10 weeks ago.)  I will be able to practice about 1 hour a day.  I love music, but never actually learned to play myself.  I have no financial need or desire to be a concert performer.  My question is: will it ever be possible for me to play at a professional level, which I define as playing at the ability of a B.A. graduate of a good piano school, perhaps over a 10-20 year period?  Also, in NYC at Mannes, Hunter, and maybe some other schools, there are extension and evening programs that let one earn a degree or diploma in music part-time, while having a regular job.  Are these worthwile, and what background in playing does one need before starting such a program?  Thanks!

I do not know about the requirements for the extension evening programs you mentioned (I am unfamiliar with them). Perhaps other members of the forum will be able to help you there.

Are they worthwhile? In my experience the only benefit of an educational institution is that they give you a diploma/certificate at the end of it. That is you will have a valid credential in that field of study. Do you need one? For instance, in order to teach at government schools in the UK you need a valid teaching certificate. It seems to me that this is not where your interest lies. I am very critical of educational institutions and a great believer in “apprenticeship” as an alternative (which is what you actually do by having private piano lessons: you become an apprentice).

As for your other question, there is no reason for anyone (discounting things like learning disabilities and physical problems) not to play at the level of a concert pianist if they put the correct effort into it.

Acquiring technique is not that difficult. I have maintained that now for many years that most if not all the technique one needs to play the piano can be acquired in a couple of years, if one knows what one is doing. What really takes time is the acquisition of repertory.

At the end of the day, piano playing is not rocket science. The whole theory, technique and methods of practice can fit in two or three books (the repertory is another matter entirely – the pianos has more music written for it than all other instruments combined).

This is the same situation as with learning a language. Anyone can learn a language and communicate successfully in it. Again, it is not rocket science. All the grammar in any language, plus most of the useful vocabulary can fit in two volumes (a grammar book and a dictionary). The literature of any language (as the repertory) is another matter altogether. You may even be able (starting at any age) to speak as well as a native speaker. The reason most adults never reach that level is simply because it is not necessary for the purposes of communication to speak like a native, so most adults do not bother to put in the extra effort.

At this point the only thing I would add is this: Contrary to popular belief, that says that you should start slow and increase intensity as you get better, put as much effort and time you can spare in the beginning. Later on you will be abel to practise less. The usual path is to have 15 minute lessons weekly for beginners, practising perhaps 10 minutes a day. Then as the student progresses, the lesson time increase to 30 minutes a week, and the daily practice also goes to 30 – 45 minutes a day. Finally, advanced students get one hour lessons weekly and practice 1 – 3 hours daily (sometimes more). Seems logical, does it not? I disagree completely with this. It is the beginner who needs one hour lessons (preferably everyday), and 1 – 3 hours practice everyday. As he gets better, he does not need so much practice, or so many lessons. This is obvious in any area where people excel.

So my answer to your question is a qualified yes. Yes you will be able to play at the level you aspire too. Technically you should be there in two years time if (and only if) you have a teacher who not only knows how to get you there, but most importantly that believes s/he can get you there. A teacher that tells you that this is impossible is not likely to be able to make it possible is it? And you cannot achieve that with weekly lessons. At least in the beginning you need daily lessons so that the teacher can guide you towards correct practice, correct technique and correct strategies of learning. You see, at your age you cannot afford to form bad habits to undo them later on. Finally, at your age you do not have time to play pieces that do not interest you. So I would suggest that you make a list of the 100 pieces that you would most like to play. If you learn five per year, in 20 years time you should have reached your goal. In fact you will learn much more than that since in order to learn a difficult piece you may have to deal with a few simpler ones that lead to the one you want. Five pieces per year is a completely manageable goal (even if you learn 1 piece a year, you will still have 20 pieces under your belt in 20 years time, which means that you will have enough repertory to play three recitals with completely different pieces!).

I have mentioned in another post one of my students who is in her 60s, has mild arthritis and at the end of six months has already learnt (memorised to performance level) the following pieces:

1.      Burgmuller – La courante Limpide
2.      Burgmuller – Innocence
3.      Beethoven – Fur Elise
4.      Anon. – Adagio
5.      Scarlatti – Sonata k32
6.      Schubert – Craddle song
7.      Schumann – Ein Chorale
8.      Chopin – Prelude op. 28 no. 4
9.      J. S. Bach – 2 voice invention in C
10.      Schubert – Impromptu op. 142 no. 2
11.      Mozart – Ah je vous dirais Maman variations (complete)

And at the moment we are working on four further pieces that will be ready before the year is over.

However, she is retired and has plenty of time in her hands and is incredibly motivated. She obeys instructions without batting an eyelid. She started with one hour lessons everyday and now she has 2 and half hour lessons three times a week. During the lesson I am not so much teaching as overlooking her practice like a hawk so that no mistakes/bad habits, etc. are allowed to creep in. Hence her success story. Sadly most students and most teachers (when a fellow teacher was told that I insisted on lessons everyday for beginners her comment was: “How bizarre!”) are not prepared to go through this intensive process.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Shagdac]

I have but one thing to say Bernhard.......

"PLEEEEEEEEEASE move to Texas"!!!!

S

[belvoce]

Bernhard,  you can't tell that we all have a high regard for you, can you?  

Shagdac, your positive attitude is very encouraging.

[trunks]

Bernhard,  you can't tell that we all have a high regard for you, can you?  
Shagdac, your positive attitude is very encouraging.

Hi belvoce,
Dreams are the drives behind life,
and positive attitude is the fuel for dreams.

[ahmedito]

Hi,

Since I was 6 or 7 years old I started studying the trumpet, and I was admitted by very high level teachers at the MAnhattan School of music. At 16 I decided to let it all go because of my love for the piano (which I barely knew how to play). I tried to enter a conservatoire at my home city only to be rejected by the piano area because of my lack of skill and my age. I was admitted in composition though. 6 years later, (a LOT of practice, and the correct teachers) I have won one international piano competition (not VERY high level, mind you) and I have been admitted to begin my studies next year with a great pianist at the Escuela Superior de Musica Reina Sofia in MAdrid (Dimitri Bashkirov and Galina Egyazarova).
I probably wont ever be world famous, like Brendel or Kissin or others, but that is not the reason why I study this career... provided your aims are not just becoming a recording, world famous artist, I See no reason why you cant become a decent concert pianist, acompanist or teacher. There is no reason to not become a musician when starting late if you love music, you work hard and have the right teachers.  Of course, someone who started small has distinct advantages over you, but  I find that when you change your aims in life to making and enjoying the music you love, instead of just wanting to be famous, youve definately made it as a pianist (and you probably wont go hungry).

[Anton]

I realy think that if you work very hard you would be able to make it as a pianist if you started late. I started with piano at the age of 14 and I am now 19 and in my first year studying Bmus.For my matric exams last year  I played the Black keys Study a Bach toccata and a  toccata by Tacacs, I'm not trying to brag as these pisces arn't the most difficult to play but stil I had to practice very hard to be able to play them.
If you are dead serious about music u will sucseed. Although starting late brings a lot of problems like sight reading and independence of fingers you can over come them.
It is very hard for me now to keep up the pace and i am scared that I wont finish in time for my exams wich is in two weeks time but i say yes one can make it.
My advice to late beginners is : practice hard , At least 4 to 5 hours a day  and go to a very good teacher.

[Alp635]

To all who have contributed so far,

Bernhard, I appreciate your voice of reason, your take on this is absolutely right.  Ahmedito, Reina sofia is one of the hardest schools to get into.  Were you waitlisted before?  OR did you get in on one shot?  I would like to go to study with Dmitri Bashkirov as well, how did you do it?  Did you play for his assistant before hand and then audition?  

Some things to add:
Just having a high level of physical ability to communicate one's musical ideas is one of many prerequisites of a concert pianist.  Being on stage is a whole different experience.  What you think you knew eludes you on stage during your bow.  Learning to play with shaking fingers, sweaty palms, feet that tremble are all part of the game...your technique can't be just proficient...it has to be battle tested.  Like a soildier that has never seen action before, it is EXTREMELY different.  Performance experience takes longer to build than one's technique and finding high-pressure performance situations can be difficult.  THe road to being a concert pianist is boobey trapped with frustration and setbacks on stage. " If only I could play like I played five minutes ago in the warm up room " is every pianists wish.  I have spent 6 hours a day for 1 year practicing the l.h of the chopin prelude in g major to acquire fluency that I can trust will be there under the most terrifying circumstances.  

So in short, it is possible to acquire the skill of a concert pianist, but to actually do it in front of critics, and judges waiting for the leaps in the 2nd mvmt of the schumann fantasie, is a whole different story.  At this point, I can play parts of Petroushka like pollini...but could I do it time and time again on 17 different kinds of pianos at different times with the same consistency as pollini?  Definitely not.   For me, the measure of a strong technique is it's consistency and dependability on stage.  The stage reveals everything, it is the true measure of ones technique.  

Being a concert pianist isn't as glamorous as it looks from the audience perspective...a concert pianist having a 100+ concert season is very much like a soildier in battle.  One can't look at the audience, worry about things.  200% focus on the things that are important for success.  On stage, you just work on executing every little detail while ignoring the fear that creeps upon you.  When things start going wrong on stage, one just breathes and prays that they will make it to the end, because in those moments, one is never sure.  It is almost this dramatic.  For me, I find the process leading up to the concert much more satisfying than actually doing it when it has to count.  

[trunks]

Hi Alp635,
Very true, and most eloquently put!

[ahmedito]

Ah... I just went and auditioned without talking to anyone first. About a week later I talked to Bashkirov, I have a friend that studies with him. He told me he liked my playing and that I am accepted at the school (I still dont have the official letter... any day now). I wanted to enter with him OR Galina. I had the choice to get waitlisted for a year before entering with Bashkirov, or entering with Galina straight away. I decided to enter with Galina for now.... I just hope she will take me in.